You are asking a question that requires a correlation between the act of a Creator/God and us? When the Bible use words like God, He, and Himself, the natural reaction is to mentally associate God as one man, but in reality that is inaccurate - one entity.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
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You are asking a question that requires a correlation between the act of a Creator/God and us? When the Bible use words like God, He, and Himself, the natural reaction is to mentally associate God as one man, but in reality that is inaccurate - one entity.
arimoff
Active Member
Wrong, G-D is not one man, and G-D is not an entity, at least not the G-D of Torah. you can't use such words to describe Him, I'm not even sure there are words to really explain Him, you can't limit Him because concepts such as limit and entity are part of creation. The Torah uses words He, Himself and the like, to assist us in understanding it.
Greatest I am was exactly right when he said G-D can't sin and then sacrifice Him self for our sins doesn't make sense because sin and sacrifice is also concepts witch are part of creation.
G-D is not part of creation, creation is part of Him.
Jesus did die for our sins. 1st John (1:7) says the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from all sin. Jesus presented his sacrifice to the person of God after his being resurrected by God. Hebrews (9:24).
Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice. Adam was created as a perfect human. Since God was Jesus father then Jesus could be born without sin and with human perfection as Adam originally had. God has 'absolute' perfection whereas Adam had 'relative' perfection. Only someone with the same relative perfection could be an equal to Adam or be an even balance for justice. The sacrifice needed to correspond to Adam's perfection.
It did Not have to surpass human perfection.
If we could stop sinning we would not die. Since we can't we die. (Romans 6:7) We can not resurrect oneself or another so by Jesus being a ransom sacrifice for us Jesus opened up the way for the resurrection (Acts 24:15).
Either to life ruling in heaven with him or to be part of the humble meek to inherit the earth. (Psalm 37:11,29; Genesis 12:3;22:18).
I'm assuming you're referring to Gen. 6: 4-9. The Hebrew word used for repentence is nachavm, which means to repent or change your mind. Notice the 2nd meaning that has no association with 'repenting for sin'. There are numerous instance that changes his mind and these instances are not related to Him being sinful.
Sorry, I meant to write 'because' instead of 'yet".
I forgot to tell you what i think of Isa (jesus) peace be upon him.
1) he is one of the Most mightiest Messengers of God
2) a Pure hearted and a pure actioned man
3) he was sent to the Jews, to set them back onto the stright path, a righteous path.
4) his message was to believe in one god, and to associate non with him.
5) Jesus (peace be upon him) is the messiah.
6) he was also sent to give glad tidings of a messenger (the comforter) who would come after him and who would glorify his name, and bring many solutions to our problems.
the 6th point is very important. Read the following passage, Jesus (peace be upon him) speaks and says:
John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
- what does this passage mean? basically, Jesus is saying that it is better for YOU, or US, (or to those he was speaking to at the time, Jews) that he leaves. why? because then he can go and he can send the comforter.
who or what is a comforter? comforter n. One that comforts: the nurse as comforter of the sick. it is interesting that it refers to a nurse as she helps the sick.
however, what it refers to is a thing, or an individual that will be sent to human kind when Jesus (peace be upon him) goes back, that will help heal the sick. not literally, but in terms of faith.
He also adds that the comforter cannot come unless he goes.
john 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
- regarding the comforter. Jesus peace be upon him talks about what the comforter will do. now this verse has alot to dissect in it.
firstly - what does it mean by spirit? does it mean a ghost? a spook? the holy ghost? no. in those days if an individual was referred to as a true spirit then he was considered on who was rightly guided. Jesus was a true spirit. Why because he was a rightly guided individual. but when Jesus (peace be upon him) talks about another spirit of truth, he cannot be talking about himself. so who is it? .....
Secondly - this verse is like no other. there are 6 HE's. Jesus specifically referrs to a man, a man, a man, a man, a man and a man. along with the fact that he is talking about a true spirit it is quite clear that jesus (peace be upon him) is talking about a man who will be rightly guided.
Thirdly - Jesus (peace be upon him) goes into telling us how this righlty guided man will help us and how he will gain the capacity to help us. Well, when HE comes, HE will guide us to the truth! (what truth? isnt the truth already here? evidently not! the jews were not ready for the truth, they did not have the capacity to understand jesus's message) HE will not speak of HIMself! (just liek jesus, he will seek the will of God and is one who is totally submitted to God) BUT what ever HE shall HEAR, HE shall Speak. (very important line! who in the history of this world has claimed that whatever he hears, he speaks? Who claimed that the angel Gabriel came with word from God so that he may listen to it and Relay it to us? HEAR then SPEAK, just think) And HE will show you things to come.
John 16:14 - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus (peace be upon him) says that this Comforter will glorify him! and that he will recieve of mine! and show it to us!
ok, so other than christianity, which other major religion and proabaly only religion, makes it an artical of faith to believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) which religion has a religious book, which has an ENTIRE chapter dedicated to the Mother of Jesus, Mary and Glorifies Her! not even the bible has an entire chapter dedicated to Mary. i am not critisising at all, honestly, i am only trying to connect the dots.
Muhammad (peace be upon him) has glorified Jesus, by telling us how greater messenger Jesus (peace be upon him) was, that jesus (peace be upon him) is not only a messenger but also the messiah! i.e. telling us of things to come.
Some christians believe that this comforter is the holy ghost. is the holy ghost a he? yes this is a valid question, because in the verse there are 6 masculin He's used and also one masculin Himself. this verse is obviously talking about a he, and a He that is rightly guided.
Any ways, if for a moment we believe that this comforter is the holy ghost and not Muhammad (peace be upon him) then we must ask ourselves, what has the holy ghost brought to us that is new? what solutions has the holy ghost brought about for homosexuality, rape, chronic alcoholism, surplus women and adultery etc. Any ways, i can ramble on for ages. but i hope i helped, and if i have misunderstood these verses, please do not hesitate to let me know, as i am open to rethinking.
again, thankyou for reading!
Jamal
Very insightful response which can be rare on religious forums but there are a few things you are missing with relation to your quotes.
The quotes you mention have to be taken in context as you know. Earlier in John verse 14:13-17 states (KJV):
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
First, it is important to take note that Jesus is addressing his disciples. So Jesus is saying to his disciples that the Father will give you another Comforter that will be with you forever - so based off what you said, Muhammad abides with the discples forever? Moreso, is it not taught in the Koran that Allah is not a father and Jesus is not the son of Allah? Because the scripture you are quoting says Jesus is the Son and that whom He is praying to is the Father - something that Muhammad denounced.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Yes and one entity cannot sacrifice itself to itself.
Especially since Gods cannot die.
Are we in agreement?
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Yep. The weak minded will inherit the earth while the brighter stronger minds inherit heaven.
I like that idea.
Regards
DL
Muffled
Jesus in me
1 ¶ In the beginning God
Unless you think Paul is saying that Jesus was the firstborn duck, monkey, tiger etc, then you would have to believe that he was speaking metaphorically of the fact that Jesus is God creating all the first born.
Jesus can't be the "image" of God unless He is God. If you are a man when you look in the mirror do you see an image of a woman? Of course not, you see an image of yourself.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I will let the fact that this thread has gone on for ... 160 pages?!!!! speak for itself. No-one of us knows. Because not one of us are messengers or prophets of God. There is a principle in the Baha'i Faith that puts all of this to rest. It is called: "Individual investigation of truth". What this means (to most Baha'is that I've known, and I've known quite a few) is that we no longer need priests or other "divines" to interpret the word of God for us. We need not argue these points among one another (and in fact it is detrimental to harmony and peace in the world when we do), but the interpretations can be shared and discussed, but no human can say that they have the quintessential truth. It is a matter between each of us, and God himself. My personal opinion is that you folks are wasting precious time here, arguing about this. Is there a diversity council on this site? The Baha'is would like to unite the peoples of the earth, and showing respect for another persons opinion is part of that process for us. If you want to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, by all means, believe that. Just don't expect everyone else to believe the same as you, and we might all just get along.
If you do not have the Truth , you do not have Jesus and you are still in your sin. The concept of indivbidual responsibility for understanding the Bible that I was broght up with in the Baptist Church presupposes a living faith in Jesus that He will lead us into an understanding of the truth. However even this faith recognizes that fellow believers can be helpful as those who have walked in the Truth for a long time.
But if you show respect for the blind man by closing your own eyes, don't you both fall in the ditch? I think if Ba'hais have anything to offer it is through the Ba'ha'l'ullah who has some spiritual wisdom.
I expect people to examine the evidence. Chances are belief will only come by the spirit of Jesus but there are some such as I who can be convinced by a good argument.
It is difficult for me to see my work as vain since Jesus approves of it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
He can do anything to Himself that He wishes.
I think your question would be better phrased as "what would be the point of God sacrificing Himself?"
The point is that people need to believe that God forgives their sins. How can one get a greater assurance of forgiveness than God Himself as the sacrifice for his sin?
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
Man can't be in the image of God unless he is God.....
....All image means in the reference is (representation). That's how John (The Baptist) saw Yeshua.John 3:34
For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.
He was sent here by his god to represent his god here on Earth and to speak on the behalf of his god everything that his god told him to say. He was God's Ambassador.
But we know by your scripture that being in God's image does not mean man is God. We know by your scriptures (4 gospels) Yeshua wasn't...because he said he wasn't and all of his actions showed he wasn't...but had a god whom he prayed to. Let's not forget Revelation where Yeshua, in heaven, says he has a god and there are two thrones present. One...God is currently occupying while the heavenly beings are praising and worshiping him and another for the Lamb.
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syberpriend
Active Member
Does'nt make any sense Muffled, God will die, it means the end of God, so y the sin is not finished from the world till now?infact it has grown more
Jesus was 'firstborn' in the heavens. Before 'all' other creation as Colossians 1:16 says that by Jesus all things created that are in (heaven and earth) both visible and invisible. As firstborn in the heavens then all angelic spirit creation came through Jesus besides physical creation.
What does Ephesians 3:9 say?
What does 1st Corinthians 8:6 say?
When one sees an image they see a reflection.
Sometimes we hear the expression 'splitting image' and we know the image is not the same but the person is being reflected. Sometimes a son is called a chip off the old block. That chip shows closeness but not being the block.
Please note Revelation 13:14,15 because is the image a reflection or is the image the actual thing?
God has attributes such as love, justice and wisdom.
Jesus reflects all those qualities to a superlative degree.
So then he is the image or reflection of his Heavenly Father. Jesus as Son (Rev 2:18) is the reflection or image of his God. Rev 3:12.
According to Psalm (90:2; 41:13; 106:48) God is from everlasting to everlasting. God has internal existence. God has life in himself. Immortality. God cannot die.
John (5:26) God gives or grants to Jesus to have life in himself (immortality).
Hebrews 9:24.
Jesus informed us that sin would in fact grow more, especially during the time set during Matthew 24 and Luke 21 which corresponds with the last days of badness on earth as 2nd Timothy (3:1-5,13) describes the growing bad attitudes and actions of people. Just as in Noah's day people grew in sin and violence until there was divine intervention into mankind's affairs.
This time Jesus will intervene by the words of his mouth. His words according to Isaiah (11:4 and Rev. 19:11,15) will be as sharp as an executioner's sword and Jesus words will rid the earth of all wickedness (Psalm 92:7) before he ushers in world-wide Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
Psalm 37:11,29,38; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30; Revelation 7:9,10,14
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
A sacrifice is when something of value is given up.
What can God give up or lose that is of value?
He is never changing after all.
He is not allowed to lose anything.
As to the idea that a sacrifice is needed in the first place, why would you think that The souls created by God do not do what they are created to do?
Is your God that big of a loser that He does not create what He wants and that His creations do not do His will?
Regards
DL
Creation whether in heaven or on earth do the will of their own choice.
Jesus chose to do God's will. (Matt 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 5:30; 6:38)
Some choose to corrupt themselves. - Deuteronomy (32:5)
God placed choices in front of the people- Deut (30:19).
No one is forced to love God and others, but we are all accountable for our actions.
Satan bet (Job 2:4) that no one would be faithful to God.
Jesus and Job proved otherwise, and by Satan saying "a man" then Satan involved all of us in the issue raised by him.
Since God sent his only-begotten Son, Jesus, from the heavens to earth wouldn't that be of value to God? He sent us his best. He sent his firstborn in the heavens- Col 1:16.
Jesus chose to do God's will. (Matt 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 5:30; 6:38)
Some choose to corrupt themselves. - Deuteronomy (32:5)
God placed choices in front of the people- Deut (30:19).
No one is forced to love God and others, but we are all accountable for our actions.
Satan bet (Job 2:4) that no one would be faithful to God.
Jesus and Job proved otherwise, and by Satan saying "a man" then Satan involved all of us in the issue raised by him.
Since God sent his only-begotten Son, Jesus, from the heavens to earth wouldn't that be of value to God? He sent us his best. He sent his firstborn in the heavens- Col 1:16.
syberpriend
Active Member
These are not Jesus words, its misconception, Son of God is used widely at that time of Jews , nowhere in Bible Jesus said he is God.Creation whether in heaven or on earth do the will of their own choice.
Jesus chose to do God's will.
(Matt 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 5:30; 6:38)
If Jesus chooses God's word, thn he is not God
Some choose to corrupt themselves. - Deuteronomy (32:5)
God placed choices in front of the people- Deut (30:19).
No one is forced to love God and others, but we are all accountable for our actions.
Satan bet (Job 2:4) that no one would be faithful to God.
Jesus and Job proved otherwise, and by Satan saying "a man" then Satan involved all of us in the issue raised by him.
Since God sent his only-begotten Son, Jesus, from the heavens to earth wouldn't that be of value to God? He sent us his best. He sent his firstborn in the heavens- Col 1:16.
Jamal_a_Man
Member
here is a very interesting passage from John 5:30 where Isa (Jesus) may peace be upon him says:
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
What does this passage mean?
1) Jesus (peace be upon him) says that on his own he can do nothing. he cannot on his own accomplish anything!
2) As he hears (or in other words percieves), he Judges! and his judgement is just! why is his judgement just? because he is a rightly guided person! how is he a rightly guided person? see point (3)
3)He is a rightly guided person because he does not seek his own will, desires, pasions, ideas! instead he seeks the will of God! Jesus seeks the will of God.
4) he was sent down by God, and not by his own accord, not by his own choice, but as a girft to human kind so that they too may be rightly guided like Isa (jesus) peace be upon him.
Now, you may say, but yes thats all lovely, but it doesnt change the fact that he reffered to god as his father!
well then, i say to you, have you never refered to god as the father in heaven. i remeber back at secondary school i used to sing a hym which went, 'oh father hallow be thy name....' we were reffering to god. never did i insinuate that i was gods beggoten son!
even more so, back in the days of Jesus (peace be upon him) rightly guided people called god their father, why? because it is a sign of Love to god, a way of associating with God.
Any ways, that verse i put in red is proof of a few very important things, and they are;
- Jesus was in total submission to God.
why? well he seeked not his own will, but the will of God.
why is this important? well it is quite interesting to note that Muslims who follow the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) are taught that islam is a religion where one attains peace, by submitting to Allah, i.e. total submission to god. Muslims are taught to seek not their own will, desires, passions, but to seek the will of Allah.
- Another important point is that, this verse shows that Jesus is Powerless without God. Infact he can do nothing on his own. just like the rest of us humans, as we too cannot do anything without the grace and help and will of God.
I really hope i helped in any way possible. My knowledge is next to nothing, i feed of others knowledge and then reflect, that is all. but i hope my reflection gives you time to reflect.
If i could ask you one favour, that would be to read any religious text in the context and with adiquate knowledge of the lanuguage use at the time of its production.
Peace to all, and i hope we can be friends.
Jamal
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
What does this passage mean?
1) Jesus (peace be upon him) says that on his own he can do nothing. he cannot on his own accomplish anything!
2) As he hears (or in other words percieves), he Judges! and his judgement is just! why is his judgement just? because he is a rightly guided person! how is he a rightly guided person? see point (3)
3)He is a rightly guided person because he does not seek his own will, desires, pasions, ideas! instead he seeks the will of God! Jesus seeks the will of God.
4) he was sent down by God, and not by his own accord, not by his own choice, but as a girft to human kind so that they too may be rightly guided like Isa (jesus) peace be upon him.
Now, you may say, but yes thats all lovely, but it doesnt change the fact that he reffered to god as his father!
well then, i say to you, have you never refered to god as the father in heaven. i remeber back at secondary school i used to sing a hym which went, 'oh father hallow be thy name....' we were reffering to god. never did i insinuate that i was gods beggoten son!
even more so, back in the days of Jesus (peace be upon him) rightly guided people called god their father, why? because it is a sign of Love to god, a way of associating with God.
Any ways, that verse i put in red is proof of a few very important things, and they are;
- Jesus was in total submission to God.
why? well he seeked not his own will, but the will of God.
why is this important? well it is quite interesting to note that Muslims who follow the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) are taught that islam is a religion where one attains peace, by submitting to Allah, i.e. total submission to god. Muslims are taught to seek not their own will, desires, passions, but to seek the will of Allah.
- Another important point is that, this verse shows that Jesus is Powerless without God. Infact he can do nothing on his own. just like the rest of us humans, as we too cannot do anything without the grace and help and will of God.
I really hope i helped in any way possible. My knowledge is next to nothing, i feed of others knowledge and then reflect, that is all. but i hope my reflection gives you time to reflect.
If i could ask you one favour, that would be to read any religious text in the context and with adiquate knowledge of the lanuguage use at the time of its production.
Peace to all, and i hope we can be friends.
Jamal
Even decades after being resurrected to heaven at Revelation 2:18 Jesus still refers to himself as the Son of God, and Jesus still has a God according to Revelation 3:12. There are two (2) thrones mentioned at verse 21.
John also recorded Jesus as saying, at Rev 3:14 B, that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God. God had No beginning but is from everlasting.
There is No Scripture that states Jesus was before the beginning as God was before the beginning.