Did Jesus say he was God???

[christian]

>Muffled. You might want to add this passage to your list.....


Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

>Muffled. You might want to add this passage to your list.....


Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Welcome to RF..now that the pleasantries are out of the way...

Becareful of jumping on his coat tail..This thread has been going on for quite some time and in Revelation we get a clear picture that the biblical Yeshua is not God but explicitly says he has a god....about 3 times in one verse. There are two thrones in heaven which God is currently occupying and being praised by the hevenly host....and they ask who is worthy of opening the seals....and it is said that no one on earth or in heaven was worthy...(But wait)...God is in heaven and surely he is worthy..?....No...because God's creation are asking him who is worthy...them the Lamb (Yeshua - Jesus) enters and is deemed the only one out of all of the heavenly creations to be the one worthy of opening the seals..This is what is described in your book...So NO...the biblical Yeshua does not refer to himself as God but rather expresses he has a god.....

 

[Muffled]

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Man can't be in the image of God unless he is God.........All image means in the reference is (representation). That's how John (The Baptist) saw Yeshua.

John 3:34
For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

He was sent here by his god to represent his god here on Earth and to speak on the behalf of his god everything that his god told him to say. He was God's Ambassador.

But we know by your scripture that being in God's image does not mean man is God. We know by your scriptures (4 gospels) Yeshua wasn't...because he said he wasn't and all of his actions showed he wasn't...but had a god whom he prayed to. Let's not forget Revelation where Yeshua, in heaven, says he has a god and there are two thrones present. One...God is currently occupying while the heavenly beings are praising and worshiping him and another for the Lamb.

Man is in a likeness. My son looks like me but he isn't me. When I look in the mirror I don't see my son. Jesus is not in the likeness of God but He is the exact image of God.

If Jesus were saying, when you look at any man you see the image of God, He would have said so and generalized His satement but instead He goes on to say that He is in God and God is in Him so that Philip would not mistake Jesus for talking about physicality. However if God is a spirit as Jesus says then the image of God must be a spirit also. When I look in the mirror I see a human being not a tiger becasue the image reflects what I am.

 

[Muffled]

Does'nt make any sense Muffled, God will die, it means the end of God, so y the sin is not finished from the world till now?infact it has grown more

This is the whole point. A amn will die and can't bring himself back to life but God has the power to bring Himself back to life and did.

I doubt that you have a way of measuring this. I once had an issue with God about how sinful this world is and He said to me "Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?" From the time Jesus became Lord and Savior of my life it has become less and less sinful. Granted that I can't speak for others but I do see a difference in the early years of this country. The founders of some communities were Christian and very little evil was found therein. Today it is different because there aren't as many Christians we are seeing a rise in sin.

 

[Muffled]

Wow, nice explanation !


But does this mean Jesus is God?

This boils down to an age old problem: If God spoke to you, hwo would you know it was Him and not some false spirit? I know by His words that He has already spoken and the deeds He has done. That is why I canrecognize the Qu'ran as the Word of God becasue His words are recognizable and His actions are consistent.

When Jesus speaks God's word He doesn't say "God said" but He says "Truly I say unto you" and His words are recognizable as God's words. His actions are powerful and consistent with God's actions. The major difference between Jesus and the prophets is that the prophets had sins (Including Mohammed PBUH) but Jesus did not sin.

 

[Muffled]

According to Psalm (90:2; 41:13; 106:48) God is from everlasting to everlasting. God has internal existence. God has life in himself. Immortality. God cannot die.

John (5:26) God gives or grants to Jesus to have life in himself (immortality).
Hebrews 9:24.

Jesus informed us that sin would in fact grow more, especially during the time set during Matthew 24 and Luke 21 which corresponds with the last days of badness on earth as 2nd Timothy (3:1-5,13) describes the growing bad attitudes and actions of people. Just as in Noah's day people grew in sin and violence until there was divine intervention into mankind's affairs.
This time Jesus will intervene by the words of his mouth. His words according to Isaiah (11:4 and Rev. 19:11,15) will be as sharp as an executioner's sword and Jesus words will rid the earth of all wickedness (Psalm 92:7) before he ushers in world-wide Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.


Psalm 37:11,29,38; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30; Revelation 7:9,10,14

I don't agree that this means immortality but rather the essence of wholeness. Sin brings death and brokenness but God does not have that within Himself. This essence of wholeness or sinlessness is present in Jesus because God is present in Jesus. The gift is for man.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

On the other hand I believe that God could endue a human spirit with perfection if He were willing to subvert the will of that man however I would then expect that man to know that He was not God and to refrain from equating himself with God.

 

[Muffled]

here is a very interesting passage from John 5:30 where Isa (Jesus) may peace be upon him says:
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

What does this passage mean?

1) Jesus (peace be upon him) says that on his own he can do nothing. he cannot on his own accomplish anything!
2) As he hears (or in other words percieves), he Judges! and his judgement is just! why is his judgement just? because he is a rightly guided person! how is he a rightly guided person? see point (3)
3)He is a rightly guided person because he does not seek his own will, desires, pasions, ideas! instead he seeks the will of God! Jesus seeks the will of God.
4) he was sent down by God, and not by his own accord, not by his own choice, but as a girft to human kind so that they too may be rightly guided like Isa (jesus) peace be upon him.

Now, you may say, but yes thats all lovely, but it doesnt change the fact that he reffered to god as his father!

well then, i say to you, have you never refered to god as the father in heaven. i remeber back at secondary school i used to sing a hym which went, 'oh father hallow be thy name....' we were reffering to god. never did i insinuate that i was gods beggoten son!

even more so, back in the days of Jesus (peace be upon him) rightly guided people called god their father, why? because it is a sign of Love to god, a way of associating with God.

Any ways, that verse i put in red is proof of a few very important things, and they are;

- Jesus was in total submission to God.
why? well he seeked not his own will, but the will of God.
why is this important? well it is quite interesting to note that Muslims who follow the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) are taught that islam is a religion where one attains peace, by submitting to Allah, i.e. total submission to god. Muslims are taught to seek not their own will, desires, passions, but to seek the will of Allah.

- Another important point is that, this verse shows that Jesus is Powerless without God. Infact he can do nothing on his own. just like the rest of us humans, as we too cannot do anything without the grace and help and will of God.

I really hope i helped in any way possible. My knowledge is next to nothing, i feed of others knowledge and then reflect, that is all. but i hope my reflection gives you time to reflect.

If i could ask you one favour, that would be to read any religious text in the context and with adiquate knowledge of the lanuguage use at the time of its production.

Peace to all, and i hope we can be friends.

Jamal

Any friend of God is a friend of mine.

1. & 3. All you did was parrot the verses; not present a meaning. Let us say for argument that Jesus is God in the flesh. Whose will does God then have? Whose power does God have? The answer is simple God has His own will and power and no-one else's. Then let us posit that Jesus is just a man. In that case He would be able to have a separate will and would not have the power to do much. The question then becomes Does having God's will and power prove that Jesus is God in the flesh? No because a prophet can also act in God's will and with God's power. However it doesn't disprove it either.

2. This is like the previous statement.

4. God sending Himself is no less a sending. What does it mean to send? in many cases it means moving an object from one place to another but this does not qualify with Jesus because there is no physical object before conception. It can also mean a message (Jesus the Word). However God does not need to come Himself to send a message. God in His essential state does not have a body as we do. However we did not have bodies before God sent our spirits into bodies. The same is true for God. He did not have a body until He sent His spirit into one.

Anyone can say God is their Father but only Jesus says that He and the Father are one and that He is in the Father and the Father in Him.

 

[arimoff]

Anyone can say God is their Father but only Jesus says that He and the Father are one and that He is in the Father and the Father in Him.[/QUOTE]

Just because he said so you believe it? I hope you do realize that this is not enough, I can say the same thing show you few tricks and according to your words you will be obligated to follow me.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Man is in a likeness. My son looks like me but he isn't me. When I look in the mirror I don't see my son. Jesus is not in the likeness of God but He is the exact image of God.

I think you're playing around with words from Hebrew/Aramaic, Greek to English. First off the verse Gen. 1:26 says image and likeness. So man (all of man) appears to be in the image of God. At least this is how your scriptures are describing it. If you are taking your interpretation from the NT. Corithians then please note that even if it says Jesus (is the image of God) it also says that about man.

2 Cor. 4:4
4:4.......... the Messiah, who is the image of God.....

But wait...step back to 1st Cor.

1 Cor. 11:7
For a man indeed.....is the image and glory of God.

Note: both verses describing Yeshua and Man are using the same Greek word (eikon). Which is where we get the word (Icon) from.

If Jesus were saying, when you look at any man you see the image of God, He would have said so and generalized His satement but instead He goes on to say that He is in God and God is in Him so that Philip would not mistake Jesus for talking about physicality.

But again the verse does not mean what you believe it means. All it means is one in purpose. The same words are uttered by Yeshua in his prayer to his god when he was begging, pleading and crying for his god to save his life from physical death. And in that prayer he asked his god to make all of his followers one with him as he was one with his god. This does not mean they were one in the same rather one in purpose/will


John 17:21,23
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,.....

One in purpose. Not one in the same.

 

[ebrima]

hello all prophet (pbuta) jesus did not say he was GOD Almighty you since from prophet noah to prophet moses all of them said believe in one God never put partners along God the 10 commandments say not to do that
1."There is no other god beside God.
2.You shall have no other gods before me

 

[URAVIP2ME]

ebrima-

Not only did Jesus Not say he was God Almighty, even the prophet Isaiah wrote (9:6) that Jesus was mighty God, but No Scripture calls Jesus as Almighty God.

Jesus is divine in that he came from the heavens, and while on earth Jesus believed he had a God (John 20:17), and after God resurrected Jesus to heaven, Jesus still believed he had a God (Rev. 3:12,21).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This boils down to an age old problem: If God spoke to you, hwo would you know it was Him and not some false spirit? I know by His words that He has already spoken and the deeds He has done. That is why I canrecognize the Qu'ran as the Word of God becasue His words are recognizable and His actions are consistent.

When Jesus speaks God's word He doesn't say "God said" but He says "Truly I say unto you" and His words are recognizable as God's words. His actions are powerful and consistent with God's actions. The major difference between Jesus and the prophets is that the prophets had sins (Including Mohammed PBUH) but Jesus did not sin.

Who is the One speaking at the time of Jesus baptism at Matthew 3:16,17 ?

See also: Luke 3:22; 9:35; Matthew 17:5.

Jesus also believed (John 17:17) that God's Word (Bible) was religious truth.
Since Jesus already believed God was speaking through the pages of the Bible would it be necessary for Jesus to say, "God said" when 'all' Scripture was inspired by God according to 2nd Timothy (3:16,17).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

ebrima-

Not only did Jesus Not say he was God Almighty, even the prophet Isaiah wrote (9:6) that Jesus was mighty God, but No Scripture calls Jesus as Almighty God.

Ebrima appears to be a Muslim so he doesn't believe Yeshua was God.

Additionally, a care study of Isaiah shows it has nothing at all to do with Yeshua. Taking a few quotes here or there I can see why people come to that conclusion but if you read it in context with an understanding of what was going on at the time in the story and the other books around it it's clear Isaiah is not speaking of the future Yeshua.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If Isaiah was not talking about a future Messiah then how do you explain the connection between Isaiah 11:4 and Revelation 19:15?

 

[Quagmire]

If Isaiah was not talking about a future Messiah then how do you explain the connection between Isaiah 11:4 and Revelation 19:15?

What connection? The fact that both passages have the word "rod" in them?

Isaiah 11:4


4But with (A)righteousness He will judge the (B)poor,
And decide with fairness for the (C)afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the (D)rod of His mouth,
And with the (E)breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

Revelation 19:15

15(A)From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that (B)with it He may strike down the nations, and He will (C)rule them with a rod of iron; and (D)He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty".



In that case how do you explain the connection between Isaiah 11:4, Revelation 19:15, and the REI fishing catalog?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If Isaiah was not talking about a future Messiah then how do you explain the connection between Isaiah 11:4 and Revelation 19:15?

Quagmire answered this already....but again..The book of Isaiah is not a confirmation of the biblical Yeshua. It was a prophecy (TO) King Ahaz and it was something King Ahaz would witness..... A "careful" study of Isaiah would show this and that it has nothing to do with the biblical Yeshua.

 

[roddio]

G-D doesn't make mistakes, and He doesn't need a second chance a.k.a the second coming.

the church killed Jews because they considered them the devil, according to you they are Antichrist, but yet you claim the same, so you are the Antichrist.

stop acting as a child and don't play with the devil, he might bight your finger off lol. Judaism doesn't believe in devil so you can't bring this idea in argument with me. Or you just trying to insult me because you have nothing else to say.

Your argument is weak just like your idea, I will prove it to you according the this thread.

gen 18:1

Jehovah is the name you use witch is written in there, Lord is the English translation of Jehovah, so you are using this to show me what? don't tell me Jehovah is Jesus and lord is the father, because that would be stupid.

Deuteronomy: ch 18

20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die

21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"

22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Now prove me wrong!!!.

Jesus came during the beginning of the exile, if he was the savior as he promised we should have been saved, but we were exiled, so Jesus did not fulfill his promiss so he is not G-D and he is not Moshiach.

just as God told Adam the he will surely die Jesus also saved us by His sacrifice. Adam didnt die as soon as he ate the fruit. God bless

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What connection? The fact that both passages have the word "rod" in them?

Isaiah 11:4


4But with (A)righteousness He will judge the (B)poor,
And decide with fairness for the (C)afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the (D)rod of His mouth,
And with the (E)breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

Revelation 19:15

15(A)From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that (B)with it He may strike down the nations, and He will (C)rule them with a rod of iron; and (D)He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty".



In that case how do you explain the connection between Isaiah 11:4, Revelation 19:15, and the REI fishing catalog?

Don't both Scriptures bring to our attention that the words from Jesus mouth will be as sharp as an executioner's sword to strike down the wicked?

There is a connection between Isa 11:4 and Rev 19:15 in that both are from Scripture. REI fishing catalog is not. However, as Rev 4:11 says that God is worthy to have glory and honor because he created all things....
God inspired what men wrote in the Bible. What men wrote in the fishing catalog is not God-inspired, but there because of his god-given abilities or talent to do so. One is spiritual and one is not, but both exist because God as our Creator allows us free will to decide for ourselves what we will use as a guide for our lives. Besides sportsman's bibles there are cooking bibles, etc. but the guide Jesus used as religious truth was the Hebrew Scriptures calling them 'God's Word is truth' at John 17:17. The REI Fishing catalog might be truth or truthful, but is it used as a guide for religious truth?

 

[Quagmire]

Don't both Scriptures bring to our attention that the words from Jesus mouth will be as sharp as an executioner's sword to strike down the wicked?

Both imply that God, or some human representative of God, will be an orator of such force that his words will have the power of weapons, but one uses a "sword" as symbolic of this, and the other a "rod". And again, there's no reason to interpret Isaiah's verse as a reference to Jesus.

If there are any similarities at all you can chalk those up to Revelation's author's familiarity with Hebrew scripture, and his desire to present his own writings as a fulfillment of such.

There is a connection between Isa 11:4 and Rev 19:15 in that both are from Scripture.

That isn't a connection, it's an artificially imposed commonality.

REI fishing catalog is not.

Depends on how you feel about fishing.

However, as Rev 4:11 says that God is worthy to have glory and honor because he created all things....

.......?

God inspired what men wrote in the Bible.

That's an article of faith, not fact, and it's meaningless to anyone who doesn't profess that faith.

What men wrote in the fishing catalog is not God-inspired, but there because of his god-given abilities or talent to do so. One is spiritual and one is not,

See my last two replies.

but both exist because God as our Creator allows us free will to decide for ourselves what we will use as a guide for our lives. Besides sportsman's bibles there are cooking bibles, etc. but the guide Jesus used as religious truth was the Hebrew Scriptures calling them 'God's Word is truth' at John 17:17.

It isn't even certain that Jesus considered the available scripture synonymous with "God's word". God's Word could well have meant something entirely different in this context.

The REI Fishing catalog might be truth or truthful, but is it used as a guide for religious truth?

Don't know, I never approached it that way. Might be an interesting experiment though.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Quagmire answered this already....but again..The book of Isaiah is not a confirmation of the biblical Yeshua. It was a prophecy (TO) King Ahaz and it was something King Ahaz would witness..... A "careful" study of Isaiah would show this and that it has nothing to do with the biblical Yeshua.

Did King Ahaz witness or fulfill Isaiah such as:

Isaiah 7:14 was Ahaz born of a virgin? Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35
Isa 61:1,2 Was Ahaz commissioned? Lu 4:18-21
Isa 9:1,2 Did Ahaz ministry cause people in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great light? Mt 4:13-16
Isa 53:4 Did Ahaz carry our sicknesses? Mt 8:16,17
Isa 42:1-4 As God's servant, would Ahaz not wrangle in the streets? Mt 12:14-21
Isa 53:1 Was Ahaz not believed in? Jn 12:37,38; Ro 10:11,16
Isa 28:16; 53:3 Was Ahaz rejected but became chief cornerstone? Mt21:42,45,46; Act 3:14; 4:11; 1 Pt 2:7
Isa 8:14,15 Did Ahaz become stone of stumbling? Lu 20:17,18; Ro 9:31-33
Isa 53:8 was Ahaz tried and condemned? Mt 26:57-68; 27:1,2,11-26;Jn 18:12-14, 19-24,28-40;19:1-6
Isa 53:7 Was Ahaz silent before accusers?
Mt 27:12-14;Mk 14:61; 15:4,5; Lu 23:9
Isa 50:6 Was Ahaz struck, spit upon and beard pulled?
Mt 26:67;27:26,30;Jn 19:3
Isa 53:10 Did Ahaz see his seed (offspring)? As Eternal Father (Isa 9:6) Jesus could see his seed because he is resurrected. And those he resurrects become his seed because Jesus becomes there Everlasting Father or life giver via the resurrection.
Isa 53:12 Was Ahaz numbered with sinners? Mt 26:55,56; 27:38; Lu 22:37
Isa 53:5 Was Ahaz pierced? Mt 27:49; Jn 19:34,37; Rev 1:7
Isa 53:5,8,11,12 Did Ahaz die a sacrificial death for us to carry away sins and open the way to righteousness with God?
Mt 20:28;Jn 1:29; Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1 Cor 15:3; Heb 9:12-15; 1 Pt 2:24; 1st Jn 2:2
Isa 53:9 Was Ahaz buried with the rich?
Mt 27:57-60; Jn 19:38-42