Did Jesus say he was God???

[Quagmire]

No one's claiming that Ahaz was the only person Isaiah talked about. You're jumping from one end of the book to another and assuming that the subject remains consistent.

Via that method we could read the first half-dozen books of the encyclopedia and come to the conclusion that Aardvarks Bake Cakes in the Desert for Ethiopian Firefighters.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Quag-

RE: Isn't certain Jesus considered available Scripture as synonymous with "God's Word"

Even before replying to Satan Jesus prefaced his statement to him with the words "It is written". Where was it written, but in the already existing Hebrew Scriptures. So then it was written in God's Word.

Example:
Matt 4:4,7,10; 11:10; 21:13; 26:31; Mark 9:13; 14:27; Luke 4:4, 8.10; 24:36; John 6:45; 8:17. Also compare Luke 4:12 with Deuteronomy 6:16.

P.S. at Matthew 5:5 wasn't Jesus referring to Psalm 37:11?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Did King Ahaz witness or fulfill Isaiah such as:

Isaiah 7:14 was Ahaz born of a virgin? Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35
Isa 61:1,2 Was Ahaz commissioned? Lu 4:18-21
Isa 9:1,2 Did Ahaz ministry cause people in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great light? Mt 4:13-16
Isa 53:4 Did Ahaz carry our sicknesses? Mt 8:16,17
Isa 42:1-4 As God's servant, would Ahaz not wrangle in the streets? Mt 12:14-21
Isa 53:1 Was Ahaz not believed in? Jn 12:37,38; Ro 10:11,16
Isa 28:16; 53:3 Was Ahaz rejected but became chief cornerstone? Mt21:42,45,46; Act 3:14; 4:11; 1 Pt 2:7
Isa 8:14,15 Did Ahaz become stone of stumbling? Lu 20:17,18; Ro 9:31-33
Isa 53:8 was Ahaz tried and condemned? Mt 26:57-68; 27:1,2,11-26;Jn 18:12-14, 19-24,28-40;19:1-6
Isa 53:7 Was Ahaz silent before accusers?
Mt 27:12-14;Mk 14:61; 15:4,5; Lu 23:9
Isa 50:6 Was Ahaz struck, spit upon and beard pulled?
Mt 26:67;27:26,30;Jn 19:3
Isa 53:10 Did Ahaz see his seed (offspring)? As Eternal Father (Isa 9:6) Jesus could see his seed because he is resurrected. And those he resurrects become his seed because Jesus becomes there Everlasting Father or life giver via the resurrection.
Isa 53:12 Was Ahaz numbered with sinners? Mt 26:55,56; 27:38; Lu 22:37
Isa 53:5 Was Ahaz pierced? Mt 27:49; Jn 19:34,37; Rev 1:7
Isa 53:5,8,11,12 Did Ahaz die a sacrificial death for us to carry away sins and open the way to righteousness with God?
Mt 20:28;Jn 1:29; Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1 Cor 15:3; Heb 9:12-15; 1 Pt 2:24; 1st Jn 2:2
Isa 53:9 Was Ahaz buried with the rich?
Mt 27:57-60; Jn 19:38-42

Your reaching....especially with Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah is about "Israel"...not about Yeshua. Even if it's talking about a person it's tense is set in the past not in future (when looking at Isaiah 53).

But we digress.....from the OP...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No one's claiming that Ahaz was the only person Isaiah talked about. You're jumping from one end of the book to another and assuming that the subject remains consistent.

Via that method we could read the first half-dozen books of the encyclopedia and come to the conclusion that Aardvarks Bake Cakes in the Desert for Ethiopian Firefighters.

That's pretty cute, however unlike other religious books the Bible has corresponding or parallel verses or passages along the same line of thought.
Since the Bible is not written like a dictionary or encyclopedia 'ABC' then for a start a comprehensive concordance is needed to look up verses by subject or topic arrangement. For example: Earth. We can look up the word earth and see what the Bible writers had to say about the earth, etc.

Matt 18:16 even brings out that out of the mouth (pen) of two or three witnesses (writers in this case) a thing is established. Where one Bible writer writes there is another verse complimenting the other.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Your reaching....especially with Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah is about "Israel"...not about Yeshua.

But we digress.....from the OP...

Major/minor fulfillment. Often Scripture has a first or earlier fulfillment than a later or major fulfillment. According to Matthew (23:38) the Jewish House of Worship would be abandoned by God. Please see Rom 7:6; Gal 3:24

Galatians (6:16) uses the expression the Israel of God. Is that fleshly national Israel or spiritual Israel? Romans (2:28,29) separates the two. Please note that after Pentecost, or the establishing of the Christian congregation, that one would now have to be a spiritual Jew or Jew by spirit. Acts (15:14) shows people of the gentile nations could now be a spiritual Jew or Christian. A fleshly Jew would now, in order to follow Christ, become a spiritual Jew or Christian. In God's mercy today natural Israel exists as a national group and a Jewish person can become Christian or part of the spiritual Israel of God.

 

[Quagmire]

Quag-

RE: Isn't certain Jesus considered available Scripture as synonymous with "God's Word"

Even before replying to Satan Jesus prefaced his statement to him with the words "It is written". Where was it written, but in the already existing Hebrew Scriptures. So then it was written in God's Word.

Example:
Matt 4:4,7,10; 11:10; 21:13; 26:31; Mark 9:13; 14:27; Luke 4:4, 8.10; 24:36; John 6:45; 8:17. Also compare Luke 4:12 with Deuteronomy 6:16.

P.S. at Matthew 5:5 wasn't Jesus referring to Psalm 37:11?

I'm not saying Jesus disregarded scripture entirely by any means, I'm just pointing out that when he uses "God's word" in John 17:17 he; a). May be talking about something other than scripture b). May well be referring to some texts that were considered scripture in his time, by his sect, but never made it into the orthodox Christian canon.

Consider; Jude quotes the Book of Enoch in his epistle, Peter quotes from The War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. Two texts that were obviously considered scripture by early Christians, but whose names most modern Christians wouldn't even recognize.

Also consider that the author of Matthew, to answer your P.S, had a vested interest in presenting Jesus' teachings as being consistent with---even a continuation of---the Tanakh.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Major/minor fulfillment. Often Scripture has a first or earlier fulfillment than a later or major fulfillment. According to Matthew (23:38) the Jewish House of Worship would be abandoned by God. Please see Rom 7:6; Gal 3:24

Galatians (6:16) uses the expression the Israel of God. Is that fleshly national Israel or spiritual Israel? Romans (2:28,29) separates the two. Please note that after Pentecost, or the establishing of the Christian congregation, that one would now have to be a spiritual Jew or Jew by spirit. Acts (15:14) shows people of the gentile nations could now be a spiritual Jew or Christian. A fleshly Jew would now, in order to follow Christ, become a spiritual Jew or Christian. In God's mercy today natural Israel exists as a national group and a Jewish person can become Christian or part of the spiritual Israel of God.

You're reaching beyond the OT and the 4 gospels to try and prove a point for prophecy. About time you get to Acts and Paul's letters it's no doubt that they, as well, were trying to attribute OT prophecy to Yeshua. They, as well as you, are incorrect. If Isaiah is to be used to describe Yeshua then carefull study must be used to determine this. I find that Christians don't do this. In Isaiah 53 it speaks of the "Suffering Servant". It's not talking about Yeshua because back in Isaiah 42 it says "explicitly" who the servant it...It's Israel. Additionally Isaiah 53's tone and tense is of (past) events....not future so this is not talking about Yeshua.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Quag-

Because 2nd Tim 3:16,17 says All scripture is inspired by God, then it would appear that God has chosen which books he wanted as part of the Bible. Other books are in some way out of harmony with the 66 books that are considered as Holy Scripture.

Example: Scripture blames Adam for sin entering the world, whereas the book of Sirach blames Eve.

 

[Quagmire]

That's pretty cute, however unlike other religious books the Bible has corresponding or parallel verses or passages along the same line of thought.

How is this unlike other religious writings? It would stand to reason that the sacred writings of any religion would be written---or chosen---to correspond to that religions theology, and presented in such a way as to suggest continuity of thought.

Since the Bible is not written like a dictionary or encyclopedia 'ABC' then for a start a comprehensive concordance is needed to look up verses by subject or topic arrangement. For example: Earth. We can look up the word earth and see what the Bible writers had to say about the earth, etc.

Yes but some classifications are determined by more subjective means than others. The writings of the prophets are usually classified along dogmatic lines, but an objective reading of each shows that there's no practical justification for these classifications.

Matt 18:16 even brings out that out of the mouth (pen) of two or three witnesses (writers in this case) a thing is established. Where one Bible writer writes there is another verse complimenting the other.

The fact that it's even necessary to supply parenthetical explanations for what's being said in this verse strongly suggests that these are dogmatic interpretations rather than logical ones.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You're reaching beyond the OT and the 4 gospels to try and prove a point for prophecy. About time you get to Acts and Paul's letters it's no doubt that they, as well, were trying to attribute OT prophecy to Yeshua. They, as well as you, are incorrect. If Isaiah is to be used to describe Yeshua then carefull study must be used to determine this. I find that Christians don't do this. In Isaiah 53 it speaks of the "Suffering Servant". It's not talking about Yeshua because back in Isaiah 42 it says "explicitly" who the servant it...It's Israel. Additionally Isaiah 53's tone and tense is of (past) events....not future so this is not talking about Yeshua.

If Isa 53:10 tone and tense is of past events then why does it say he shall see his seed (offspring)?

Isa 42:6 is interesting in connection to Isa 49:6.

What do you think of Daniel 9:25,26?

 

[Quagmire]

Quag-

Because 2nd Tim 3:16,17 says All scripture is inspired by God, then it would appear that God has chosen which books he wanted as part of the Bible.

You could well make a case---in accordance with Christian beliefs---that what wound up in the present Christian canon (regardless of the mechanics involved) was by God's choosing, in the same way that governments and officails are in place and in power by God's will, but again; these are articles of faith, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't expect this argument to carry any wieght with anyone outside of your faith.

Other books are in some way out of harmony with the 66 books that are considered as Holy Scripture.

Example: Scripture blames Adam for sin entering the world, whereas the book of Sirach blames Eve.

Which is exactly why they weren't included in the canon. But again; to anyone outside of your faith, this is the result of choices made by councils of men, acting in accordance with a human agenda.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If Isa 53:10 tone and tense is of past events then why does it say he shall see his seed (offspring)?

Isaiah 53:10 (Taken from the Mesoretic Translation)..NOT the king James rendidtion
Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

Yeshua was not crushed by disease nor did he have children (according to orthodox christianity) nor did he live long....

No. The suffering Servant is Israel (Isaiah 41:8)

Isa 42:6 is interesting in connection to Isa 49:6.

Only if you're reading out of context and if you're trying to link the OT and NT. It's without a boubt the writers in the NT took from the OT to make a case for Yeshua....but they, as well as present day christians, are grasping at making the Isaiah fit even when it doesn't.

What do you think of Daniel 9:25,26?

.....?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Isaiah 53:10 (Taken from the Mesoretic Translation)..NOT the king James rendidtion
Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

Yeshua was not crushed by disease nor did he have children (according to orthodox christianity) nor did he live long....

No. The suffering Servant is Israel (Isaiah 41:8)

Only if you're reading out of context and if you're trying to link the OT and NT. It's without a boubt the writers in the NT took from the OT to make a case for Yeshua....but they, as well as present day christians, are grasping at making the Isaiah fit even when it doesn't.
.....?

Yeshua (Yehohshua) according to Luke (22:44) was in an agony to the point of hematohidrosis.

Eternal Father (Isa 9:6) can be applied to the account about Jesus because God resurrected him. His life was prolonged through the resurrection. Jesus was then given power of the resurrection. Being life giver to the dead makes him their eternal father because he gives them back their life.

Won't the promise to Abraham be fulfilled, Genesis 12:3; 22:18?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You could well make a case---in accordance with Christian beliefs---that what wound up in the present Christian canon (regardless of the mechanics involved) was by God's choosing, in the same way that governments and officails are in place and in power by God's will, but again; these are articles of faith, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't expect this argument to carry any wieght with anyone outside of your faith.

Which is exactly why they weren't included in the canon. But again; to anyone outside of your faith, this is the result of choices made by councils of men, acting in accordance with a human agenda.

Yes, it would appear as a human agenda. Luke writes a warning at the end of Acts that after the apostle would be gone there would be oppressive wolves entering in among the congregation. This ties in with the illustration of the wheat and the weeds. Wheat and weed-like people would grow together until the harvest time of separation of sheep and goat-like ones.

So although humans were used, since it was God's Book, He was still behind which books He wanted in the cannon.

After Isaiah wrote chapters 52, 53 is there any record of any Jew or Rabbi who taught the servant was to be viewed in a collective sense before the 6th century? What was the human agenda for changing the servant from an individual to a nation ?
According to Isa 34:2 how many nations are going to be brought into judgment?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yeshua (Yehohshua) according to Luke (22:44) was in an agony to the point of hematohidrosis.

This was not what happened to him. the verse says..."and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

Surely his disciples would have noticed this when he attempted to wake them up or when he was greeted by Judas and the guards. No, because he was simply sweating in fear for his life.

Eternal Father (Isa 9:6) can be applied to the account about Jesus because God resurrected him.

No it can't because Isaiah is not about him, even these early chapters disprove that notion especially when you read beyond that verse. It becomes clear it's talking about the nation hand its tribulations.

His life was prolonged through the resurrection. Jesus was then given power of the resurrection. Being life giver to the dead makes him their eternal father because he gives them back their life.

Even if true it has absolutely nothing to do with Isaiah 53...which is actually referring to the nation of Israel.

 

[Muffled]

hello all prophet (pbuta) jesus did not say he was GOD Almighty you since from prophet noah to prophet moses all of them said believe in one God never put partners along God the 10 commandments say not to do that
1."There is no other god beside God.
2.You shall have no other gods before me

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. The reason is that you have a hidden premise that you don't mention in that you think Jesus is a separate entity from God. If that were true Jesus would be a partner and God would not be one. However the evidence is that Jesus and God are one so there is no separate entity to be a partner and God remains one as it is written.

 

[Muffled]

Who is the One speaking at the time of Jesus baptism at Matthew 3:16,17 ?

See also: Luke 3:22; 9:35; Matthew 17:5.

Jesus also believed (John 17:17) that God's Word (Bible) was religious truth.
Since Jesus already believed God was speaking through the pages of the Bible would it be necessary for Jesus to say, "God said" when 'all' Scripture was inspired by God according to 2nd Timothy (3:16,17).

The Father (The term Jesus uses to refer to Jehovah). So what is your point? If it is separation by distance, think again because God is omnipresent.

You are putting the cart before the horse. The Paraclete inspired Paul to say that all scripture is inspired by God after Jesus had ascended. Every prophet establishes his word as authoritative by saying that God said it except for Jesus who just speaks it as the people recognized: Lu 4:32 and they were astonished at his teaching; for his word was with authority.

Jesus qouted scripture often but He also added His own words.

Mat. 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

 

[Muffled]

Anyone can say God is their Father but only Jesus says that He and the Father are one and that He is in the Father and the Father in Him.

Just because he said so you believe it? I hope you do realize that this is not enough, I can say the same thing show you few tricks and according to your words you will be obligated to follow me.[/quote]

You can say the same thing but can you raise yourself from the dead? I believed in Jesus when I realized that He rose from the grave and at the time it wasn't His words of divinity but his words explaining spiritual rebirth in John 3 that helped me believe that he rose from the dead. If there were no spirit, there would be no returning to a body.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Chapter 17 of John Jesus prays that his followers be one just as he and his Father are one.

Jesus was not praying that they all be the same person, but at verses 11,21-23 Jesus was praying they be all one in purpose, unity, goal, belief, objective, etc. - John 14:28 B.

Jesus was spirit in heaven before coming to earth and after 'God raised him' Jesus returned to the spirit realm.

Hebrews 9:24; 1st Cor 6:14.; Acts 3:15; 4:10; 13:30; Romans 10:9; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:20

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Chapter 17 of John Jesus prays that his followers be one just as he and his Father are one.

Jesus was not praying that they all be the same person, but at verses 11,21-23 Jesus was praying they be all one in purpose, unity, goal, belief, objective, etc. - John 14:28 B.

Jesus was spirit in heaven before coming to earth and after 'God raised him' Jesus returned to the spirit realm.

Hebrews 9:24; 1st Cor 6:14.; Acts 3:15; 4:10; 13:30; Romans 10:9; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:20

Here are some I presented way back when this thread was young...

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

That one is in line with your second comment.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.


Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.


Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work.


Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."


Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.


Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who
sent me;


Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone.


John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

:run: