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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Again, this is an explanation via faith/dogma. There's no logical reason to believe that God was orchestrating the arrangement of the present canon.
In fact, considering the contradictions and other inconsistencies it would be a lot easier to make a case against divine guidance/design.
I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. It's not like there are only two possible interpetations of the suffering servent "prophecy" and if one is false the other must be true be default. There are any number of ways of reading it.
All. Again, what has this got to do with what were talking about?
arimoff
Active Member
It is very interesting that Christians try to prove Jesus by using the book of Prophets. I haven't see anyone bring any sources from Torah. A hint of Jesus in the Torah would just play a bigger roll then using Prophets but they never do it. I guess the golden rule don't stick your nose in to something you can't understand applies in this case. To bad it doesn't work for the book of Prophets.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The Paraclete is also God in the flesh as well as Jesus but with the difference being that each one of us has his own spirit present with God's spirit while Jesus has only the spirit of God. The verses that you gave do not present a distinction of only one in purpose. I say only because it stands to reason that God has His own purpose in the Father, Son and Paraclete.
The name Jesus only occurs with the incarnation (unless you wish to refer to a different person like Joshua who fought the battle of Jericho which explains why the Pharisees referred to Him as Jesus of Nazareth to distinguish Him from other Jeshua's). Certainly the concept of God as Savior was always present but that does not indicate a different spirit but points to the same spirit. Jesus ascended bodily and the statement that Jesus is on the right hand of God only makes sense if there is a dichotomy between flesh and not flesh.
However when Jesus leaves the body on the cross before it dies, He does so spiritually which means that the dichotomy no longer exists for that period of time until the resurrection.
How could Jesus ascend bodily when 1st Corinthians 15:50 plainly says flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom?
Who gives or grants immortality to have life from within to Jesus according to John 5:26?
How many thrones are mentioned at Revelation 3:21?
Revelation was written decades after Jesus was in heaven,
and at Rev. 2:18 Jesus still considers himself to be the Son of God.
In heaven Jesus still has a God according to Revelation 3:12; John 20:17 B.
At Revelation 3:14 B Jesus still considers himself to be the 'beginning' of the creation by God just as Colossians 1:15,16 shows him to be 'firstborn' in the heavens. From Psalms we know God is from everlasting meaning God had no beginning. God was before the beginning. There is no Scripture that says Jesus was before the beginning.
According to Scripture it is God that resurrects Jesus from hell (Acts 2:27,31). There is No Scripture that says Jesus raises himself.
Didn't Jesus have his own will and came to do God's will?
Matt 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 5:30; 6:38.
Muffled
Jesus in me
If you are suggesting that the Kingdom of God is a place you are mistaken. The kingdom of God exists wherever there are spirits who have Jesus as King. Ascension is done by antigravity. That is how levitation takes place as well.
This also is a misconception. It is eternal life because it is spiritual life as opposed to those who are spiritually dead. It is the Spirit of God that gives Jesus spiritual life ie. His presence in Jesus.
None. All thrones in Heaven are illusions since nothing material exists there.
So what is your point?
It makes no sense to believe that a dead person can raise themselves from the dead because they are dead. However Jesus is not just a body with no spirit but with the Spirit of God which departed before the body died. (It didn't really go anywhere because God is everywhere) However Jesus is not really Jesus without the body because He is the Father in the spiritual state.
I have explained this before but will again for your sake. A human being has two wills: the will of the flesh (which includes the physical mind) and the will of the spirit which in Jesus is The Spirit. In every person there is a contest of wills between the flesh and the spirit and Jesus states that He overcame the world.
Isn't the kingdom of God a heavenly kingdom? and don't we pray thy kingdom come and God's will be done on earth 'as' it is in heaven? Isn't God's will for heaven peace and security? No one goes to heaven to be sick there or die in heaven. These problems exist right here on earth, and since we pray God's will be done right here on earth as his will is being done in heaven then we are praying those same good conditions to exist here as they exist in heaven.
Although a heavenly kingdom its affects, according to the prophet Daniel, will felt right here on earth. (Daniel 7:13,14 ;2:44.) That heavenly government having Jesus as crowned king of God's kingdom (Isaiah 9:6,7) will use his kingly position of authority in order for the humble meek to inherit the earth after getting rid of the wicked as promised.
Psalm 37:11,29,38; 92:7; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30
Although a heavenly kingdom its affects, according to the prophet Daniel, will felt right here on earth. (Daniel 7:13,14 ;2:44.) That heavenly government having Jesus as crowned king of God's kingdom (Isaiah 9:6,7) will use his kingly position of authority in order for the humble meek to inherit the earth after getting rid of the wicked as promised.
Psalm 37:11,29,38; 92:7; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30
Muffled
Jesus in me
Yes. However it is so because the Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom ie the Kingdom exists wherever the spirit exists.
I think you have this right but I am not sure what you mean by security. If you mean safe from evil, I would agree.
I Sam 8:7 And Jehovah said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not be king over them.
The fact that God wants to be the King of Israel points out the deity of Jesus who claims to be the king of the Kingdom of God.
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arimoff
Active Member
According to 1st Cor 11:3 the head of Christ is God. At the end of Jesus thousand-year kingdom rule, as being king of God's kingdom, doesn't Jesus according to 1st Cor 15:24 deliver up the kingdom to God?
In today's words, if we substitute the word kingdom it is the word government.
Didn't the prophet Daniel believe that God's kingdom was an actual government according to what he wrote at Daniel 7:13,14; 2:44 ?
Jesus is the crowned king of God's kingdom (Isa 9:7) and in his model prayer Jesus said to pray "Thy (God's) kingdom come" . Also, we do not pray our Father who art in Kingdom, or pray thy heaven come.
True, God's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Jerusalem was the seat of government in Jesus day. The heavenly new Jerusalem is the seat of government whose rulership although heavenly will rule from heaven with its effects being felt right here on earth.
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords over all 'earthly' Kings or Lords.
Jesus 'words' will execute those against God's kingdom as Isaiah 11:4 and Revelation 19:11,13, 15 brings out, before Jesus, as the Word of God, Prince of Peace (not titled King of Peace) , brings peace on earth toward men of goodwill.
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Revelation 1:8 (NIV)
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
In the NIV LORD and Lord means Father and Son respectively.
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
In the NIV LORD and Lord means Father and Son respectively.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
That's not how the biblical Yeshua saw himself....
Revelation 3:12 (Yeshua speaking after his supposed ascension)
Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
As far as your assesment on the word (LORD/Lord/lord)...you are incorrect because we know other in your bible were called "lord".
See Judges 4:18, Judges 19:26,27, 2Chroonicles 2:14, 1 Peter 2:13
I'm quite sure if I keep looking I will find more. So the word LORD was not exclusive to "God". It was used for men as a sign of position or respect. The word is ambiguous and it really depends on the context of the conversation.
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
What's written in Matthew and in John are in two different context. John 8:24 has nothing to do with the biblical Yeshua claiming to be "God". When reading John chapter 8 in context it's clear it has nothing to do with the biblical Yeshua claiming to be "God"...
Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34 says that the LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord to sit at my right hand. Isn't that sitting the sitting on the two (2) thrones of Revelation 3:21?
Isaiah (9:7) gives Jesus the title of Mighty God but not as Almighty God.
Paul (1st Cor 11:3) places as the head of Christ is God.
xkatz
Well-Known Member
Bible is NOT evidence because most of what is said in it was not actually said by Jesus himself. And on that note, most people point out that Jesus made no mention of the trinity nor did he ever claim to be God.
Continuing at Matthew (16:16) Peter answers Jesus question of verse 15 by answering that he (Peter) believed that You (Jesus) are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Furthermore, at Matthew (27:43) they said that Jesus trusted in God.... and Jesus said that he is the Son of God.
The centurion (Matthew 27:54) and those with him, said said Jesus truly was the Son of God.
In John's gospel, for the record (or John bare record) at John (1:32,34) that John believed (for the written record) that Jesus is the Son of God.
Besides John, Nathanael (John 1:49) answers that Jesus is the Son of God.
At John (6:67-69) Peter speaking for the 12 stating that 'we' or they believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.
At John (10:36) Jesus was accused of blasphemy why? because they said that Jesus made himself the Son of God.
Martha (John 11:24-27) believed Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.
The Jews (John 19:7) said Jesus ought to die why? because Jesus made himself the Son of God.
At John (8:53,54) they asked whom makest thou thyself?, or in today's words: 'who do you Jesus claim to be?'
Jesus answers that they say that Jesus Father is his God.
Muffled-
Doesn't John (14:28) say Jesus Father is greater then Jesus?
At John (10:30) how are Jesus and his Father one? Doesn't Jesus pray at John (17:11,21-23) that his 'followers be 'one' just as he and his Father are one' ?
Not all be one same person, but one like Father and Son in unity, purpose, belief, objective, goal, etc.
John (10:11) in the Greek the word there is for ' fine shepherd' rather than good.
Isaiah (9:6) Jesus is never called in Scripture as 'Almighty God 'but as Isaiah addresses him as 'Mighty God'. Jesus is divine coming from heaven.
Since God gives Jesus the power of the resurrection Jesus will be everlasting father because father means life giver and in the resurrection Jesus gives eternal life.
Jesus is the resurrection and the life because as John (5:26) says that the Father who has immortality, or has life in himself, gives or grants to Jesus to have life in himself.
Didn't Jesus always put God's will ahead of doing his own will?
Matthew 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 5:30; 6:38 ?
Doesn't John (14:28) say Jesus Father is greater then Jesus?
At John (10:30) how are Jesus and his Father one? Doesn't Jesus pray at John (17:11,21-23) that his 'followers be 'one' just as he and his Father are one' ?
Not all be one same person, but one like Father and Son in unity, purpose, belief, objective, goal, etc.
John (10:11) in the Greek the word there is for ' fine shepherd' rather than good.
Isaiah (9:6) Jesus is never called in Scripture as 'Almighty God 'but as Isaiah addresses him as 'Mighty God'. Jesus is divine coming from heaven.
Since God gives Jesus the power of the resurrection Jesus will be everlasting father because father means life giver and in the resurrection Jesus gives eternal life.
Jesus is the resurrection and the life because as John (5:26) says that the Father who has immortality, or has life in himself, gives or grants to Jesus to have life in himself.
Didn't Jesus always put God's will ahead of doing his own will?
Matthew 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 5:30; 6:38 ?
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus refers to the Father as his God. However, as the scripture clearly points out that Jesus considers himself to be Almight as well.
.
My assessment is based on the NIV's definition of the usage of LORD, Lord and lord.
However, you make a good point and will need more time to look into the matter.
No mention of the word "Loed" in Judges 19:26,27. and Peter 2:13 is talking about Jesus.