Did Jesus say he was God???

[Popeyesays]

The Creative Impulse (The Word) exists concretely all around us. It does not need Jesus as a permanent v essel. Jesus was one effect of the Cause. There are many effects.

This shows that Jesus is not "GOD", but other than God.

The Creative Impulse is but one of the unknown attributes of God.

The universe and all universes were the result of the Creative Impulse, but the Creative Impulse is not the total nature of God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I think all the careful study of the Trinity from the Christian scholarly viewpoint is nothing but a circle starting with the conclusion and working round and round and round.

Rational logic does not proceed in a circle, it proceeds from point to tpoint, branching when necessary, but never circling back.

Machine logic uses the idea of a "loop" to process data by the same linear progression without interference, but it is not "circular" in that it proceeds from the conclusion.

One needs to embrace a logical flaw to get to the idea that GOd is divisible or subject to multiplication.

Regards,

Scott

 

[lew0049]

Sorry Popeyesays, but I have no clue where you are coming up with your "logic", b/c it seems you are neglecting the logic that the Bible presents.

All of the points that are being made on this issue assume that mankind is supposed to be able to 100% understand/comprehend. For example, how is it possible for humans, who see things in 2D or 3D, understand something that is in 12D? We can't. Even if it is explained to the fullest, we cannot understand. Attempting to use "rational" logic to understand the Father, Son and Holy spirit definitely could fall in the same context. Again, it is not like mankind can fully understand the way the universe was made. Yes, we have Genesis as a guide to see the process, but in no way can we comprehend how it was actually created.

 

[UnityNow101]

That is true...NONE of us can fully understand or comprehend the true nature of the Almighty..And that is why the trinity fails miserably in trying to do so. It is an idea brought about by men to try and explain the nature of God. It is flawed in the sense that one must abandom some basic premises of God to explain the trinity...Such as God being one and seperation between the three. I see many Christians extolling and glorifying the name of Jesus Christ, but hardly ever hear them glorify the name of Jesus' God and Father.

 

[Katzpur]

Here are some very good scholarly articles for those interested in actual study of the biblical concept of the Trinity, rather than rhetoric and guessing and bs'ing. It's a fascinating subject but widely misunderstood so worthy of study.

• Foundational article on the Father-Son relationship -- also includes links to articles on how various groups misunderstand the doctrine of the Trinity.

Well, I checked out this first link and stopped there. The first thing that I noticed was the statement, "Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father." I can't accept that because I see Jesus as God's Son. I'm not just an "attribute" of my mother and father. I'm an individual in my own right. Likewise, Jesus is not just an "attribute" of His Father. He is an individual in His own right. That even contradicts what I've heard Trinitarians say on countless occasions -- that Jesus is "fully God." A single attribute of God is certainly not enough to make Him "fully God."

The next thing I noticed was a link to a page on the same site that compared "Christian" doctrine to "Mormon" doctrine. I didn't find any links comparing "Christian" doctrine to "Lutheran" doctrine or to "Catholic" doctrine, though.

 

[lunamoth]

Well, I checked out this first link and stopped there. The first thing that I noticed was the statement, "Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father." I can't accept that because I see Jesus as God's Son. I'm not just an "attribute" of my mother and father. I'm an individual in my own right. Likewise, Jesus is not just an "attribute" of His Father. He is an individual in His own right. That even contradicts what I've heard Trinitarians say on countless occasions -- that Jesus is "fully God." A single attribute of God is certainly not enough to make Him "fully God."

The next thing I noticed was a link to a page on the same site that compared "Christian" doctrine to "Mormon" doctrine. I didn't find any links comparing "Christian" doctrine to "Lutheran" doctrine or to "Catholic" doctrine, though.

Hi Katz,

The links I saw at the bottom of the page were all to views 'alternative' to the Trinity view, and included JWs, unitarians, and others as well as LDS. If the point of the apologetics is to discuss different views of God and Trinity, it would not make much sense to compare to Lutheran or Catholic, which accept the Trinity doctrine.

Is there another link on that page I did not see? I really don't think LDS was singled out for anything other than having a different view of the Trinity.

luna

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katz,

The links I saw at the bottom of the page were all to views 'alternative' to the Trinity view, and included JWs, unitarians, and others as well as LDS. If the point of the apologetics is to discuss different views of God and Trinity, it would not make much sense to compare to Lutheran or Catholic, which accept the Trinity doctrine.

Is there another link on that page I did not see? I really don't think LDS was singled out for anything other than having a different view of the Trinity.

luna

Point well taken, Luna. Just feeling ornery, I guess.

 

[Sonic247]

Of course Jesus is God in the flesh, In Isaiah God says that he will not give his glory to another. And no one knew the scriptures more than Jesus so why would he say "glorify me with thine own self, with the glory I had with you before the world began."

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Dre - it seems as though you are only taking the quotes from the Bible at face value? I'm sure you will say you aren't

Here's the thing....looking at what Jesus said...it is direct...it is plain...it is simple.....

Why must we try to interpert what meant when it is clear....?????

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Should we interpert this as God was crying out to God to save God?

NO....This is Jesus alone.....

Was Jesus divine?....YES...
Was he God...NO
Why???.....Because he said so....

but I was reading parts of the NT last night, and I don't see how its possible not to see the trinity. Regardless though, when I said "inferior" I simply meant that Jesus had to deal with mankind's temptations on Earth.

Then it was Jesus who was inferior and needed the aide of the spirit of God to do God's will.......

But none of this would make God inferior.....because it almost sounds like you're saying God in the flesh was inferior to that which it created.....

 

[Katzpur]

Why must we try to interpert what meant when it is clear....?????

When people are bound and determined to fit that square peg into that round whole, DreGod, they will resort to almost any means to succeed.

 

[Sonic247]

Jesus was at the same time 100% man and 100% God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Of course Jesus is God in the flesh, In Isaiah God says that he will not give his glory to another. And no one knew the scriptures more than Jesus so why would he say "glorify me with thine own self, with the glory I had with you before the world began."

uhhhh...because he didn't say it....Well not the way you quote it.... I have a few bibles and this is what it says.....;

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is Jesus directing his request to God..... So again....NO God in the flesh...

Jesus did not seek "his own glory" because well before John 17:5 this is what Jesus said.....;

John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Here's the thing....looking at what Jesus said...it is direct...it is plain...it is simple.....

Why must we try to interpert what meant when it is clear....?????

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Should we interpert this as God was crying out to God to save God?

God the Son, speaking as a man, was crying out to God the Father, yes.

NO....This is Jesus alone.....

Was Jesus divine?....YES...
Was he God...NO
Why???.....Because he said so....

Jesus never said He was not God. He said that we are to honor Him just as we honor the Father, He said that He has all authority in heaven and earth, He and the Father share the same "name," He claimed the I AM title of God in the Old Testament...I could go on. Providing examples of where Jesus showed His humanity does not help your case; Trinitarians believe Jesus is fully man. That is not, however, mutually exclusive with Him being God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

When people are bound and determined to fit that square peg into that round whole, DreGod, they will resort to almost any means to succeed.

This is so true....

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

uhhhh...because he didn't say it....Well not the way you quote it.... I have a few bibles and this is what it says.....;

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is Jesus directing his request to God..... So again....NO God in the flesh...

Jesus did not seek "his own glory" because well before John 17:5 this is what Jesus said.....;

John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

He didn't have to; all things the Father has are already His.

 

[Sonic247]

I think you missed the first part of what I said, how it says in Isaiah that God would not give his glory to another.

 

[Popeyesays]

Sorry Popeyesays, but I have no clue where you are coming up with your "logic", b/c it seems you are neglecting the logic that the Bible presents.

All of the points that are being made on this issue assume that mankind is supposed to be able to 100% understand/comprehend. For example, how is it possible for humans, who see things in 2D or 3D, understand something that is in 12D? We can't. Even if it is explained to the fullest, we cannot understand. Attempting to use "rational" logic to understand the Father, Son and Holy spirit definitely could fall in the same context. Again, it is not like mankind can fully understand the way the universe was made. Yes, we have Genesis as a guide to see the process, but in no way can we comprehend how it was actually created.

You're missing two things in what I said.
1) The Biblical language and the quotations cited were never meant to maqke it clear in the first place. They were to show the many levels of truth within the statement that the mind can find and consider.

2) You're assuming I have ever said that man can 100% understand the nature of God. Man cannot, nor will man ever be able to do that. God is not perceivable in any physical sense. One must search for any understanding, however infinitessimal it might be.


Jesus was a man, that means flat-out and simply that Jesus could not have been God. God is not a man, or we would be able to understand the nature of God.

quod erat demonstrandum

Regards, Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

God the Son, speaking as a man, was crying out to God the Father, yes.

Your "opinion" ......but that's not what Jesus said.....

It's ok if people want to look beyond what he said to make the interpertation that he was something he plainly said he wasn't.

Jesus never said He was not God.

Sure he did...You're just not listening to him.


Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.


Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

He makes it clear that God sent him which certainly means Jesus isn't God.


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

He said that we are to honor Him just as we honor the Father, He said that He has all authority in heaven and earth,

Can you provide that quote?? I'm searching and I can't seem to find it. I have found a quotes where Jesus said God gave him authority.

This goes back to what I said earlier..."Any divinity Jesus had was granted to him by God."

 

[Dirty Penguin]

He and the Father share the same "name," He claimed the I AM title of God in the Old Testament...I could go on.

hmmmm....Not as impressive as you may beleive.......Let's see... (I am)....well Proverbs of Solomon comes to mind...

Proverbs
8:22 God possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of
old.

8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


hmmmmm let's see (I am).... Well Melchisedec comes to mind.

Hebrews
7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.


With all of that said, that I am statement holds no water. Here's why....

John 8:58 (in Greek and English Translation)
58

eipenautoiVoihsouVamhnamhnlegwuminprinabraamgenesqaiegweimi
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The scholars who translated this do a very good job but observe John 9:9

9

alloielegonotioutoVestinalloideotiomoioVautwestinekeinoVelegenotiegweimi
9:9 Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he].


See how they added the (HE) in brackets in 9:9 when the word (HE) is not even at the end of the quote? So The Iam statement is not what you think it is.

Providing examples of where Jesus showed His humanity does not help your case;

I seem to be doing pretty well. How about you?

Trinitarians believe Jesus is fully man. That is not, however, mutually exclusive with Him being God

.

Well, there you go. I'm not a trinitarian but I know Jesus isn't God....because He he said he wasn't.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus was at the same time 100% man and 100% God.

I have no problem with this overwhelming proof...you have shown...:no: