Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Can you share the Chapter and verse?
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Can you share the Chapter and verse?
Jesus was a man, that means flat-out and simply that Jesus could not have been God. God is not a man, or we would be able to understand the nature of God.
Interesting you make a claim like this and before that you said "You're assuming I have ever said that man can 100% understand the nature of God. Man cannot, nor will man ever be able to do that."
That is a contradiction as you are claiming that God could not be a man. You are limiting his ability and power.
Interesting you make a claim like this and before that you said "You're assuming I have ever said that man can 100% understand the nature of God. Man cannot, nor will man ever be able to do that."
That is a contradiction as you are claiming that God could not be a man. You are limiting his ability and power.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Sonic and some one else wrote someting as if they were quoting the bible but did not include the actual chapter and verse.
I can't remember what they said though.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
We're both interpreting the verses in question, whether you choose to see that or not. The question is, why should we believe your interpretation? Why should we believe the interpretation I'm advocating? Are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture?
It's funny how people can read right past the words of a passage. He makes it clear that the FATHER sent Him (The FATHER'S who sent Me, the FATHER who sent Me,). None of that denies His own deity.
Sure: John 5:23, and also John 16:15
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Again you're not following what I argued, but making up somethin other than I argued.
Man is finite. His body masses so much and no more, he is as tall as he is and no taller. His brain has as many neurons as it has and will never have more. Man is "measured". Any one man is limited--but a tiny portion of Creation.
Creation cannot contain God. Creation is material and God is not. Creation has dimensions of some kind because it is finite, it is "measured".
God is measureless. As I have said before the OCeans cannot be contained in a teacup and a teacup full of water is not the oceans. So man is not God and God is not man,
God can fill a man only to his material dimensions. That single man is a single vessel of limited capactiy. Lon g before God can contain Himself within those tiny dimensions the vessel will hold no more.
Both Testaments testify to the fact that God is Spirit. Man is not just Spirit, he is also flesh and flesh defines the capacity of man.
God has no capacity, it is not part of God's measure because God is not measured.
To put it yet another way God is not contained by Creation, Creation is contained by God.
Regards,
Scott
Muffled
Jesus in me
Fom the day the church started there were people who held differrent views in the church. Each one would of course consider his view as authoritative. Along comes the reformation when anyone can read the Bible and it becomes easy to see that the so called authorities don't square with the Bible. I neither believe that antiquity, reputation, authoritative position or numbers guarantee a correct view.
If that is the case then by saying any of those incarnations was Jesus, they were saying that God has more than one spirit to incarnate which is contrary to scripture which states that there is one spirit Eph 4:4. They also say that Jesus pre-existed which is not really true for the same reason. The Spirit of God which is in Jesus pre-existed. There was no Jesus of Nazareth until that person was born.
Not according to the evidence I provided in the OP.
Granted but that does not mean that God can't exist in the flesh in a similar manner to the way we dwell in the flesh.
That is not necessarily a physical attribute but simply an ability of God that He could have had before the crucifixion. I am talking about the fact that His own disciples didn't recognize him until they saw the nail prints or it was revealed to them another way.
Muffled
Jesus in me
He can't. Paul made it quite clear that Jesus was equal to God.
If this is in reference to the Father being greater, that is not necessarily a statement that the Father is superior. God is still God wherever He is. It is just that no particular presence of God is greater than the general presence of God.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
What's to interpert? Jesus was in heaven and God sent him and bestowed the holy spirit on Jesus to do the will of God. That is what he said. Again, what's to interpert. I'm not interperting it to mean that he was God as most have done. He made it quite clear.
I didn't make an interpertation of what Jesus said or what he might have meant. I didn't speculate as to the percentage of his manhood or his divinity. He was quite clear as to who he was, what he was here for, where he came from and who sent him.
I don't know. I certainly don't believe it.
And??????
I've already said that. I figured that should have been enough. He came from heaven because God sent him to do the will of God and to help him do this he was aided by the holy spirit.
Yes it does......
He wasn't a deity. He never claimed to be or portrayed himself as one. He was divine but not a deity. They are not the same.
Can we consider the angels to be deities or are they divine?
If the angels aren't deities but they are divine then it stands to reason that their divinity came from God. This is true with Jesus. He tells us that flat out. His power comes from God, He was sent here by God to do God's will. The truth of what he said were not his words but God's words........etc.....etc....etc...
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I knew it was just a matter of time before some one would start throwing out the quotes from Paul.
I'll take Jesus's word over Paul's assumptions. Jesus showed us plain and simple who he was and none of it had to do with him being God. On the contrary, He seperated himself from that so people would not misinterpert what he was saying. What did they do? They misinterperted what he was saying......
13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Where's that co-equal because I don't see it? So far this is the second time Jesus has said this.
17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom thou hast sent.
The verses before this don't help you either. Jesus lifted his eyes to heaven to ask God for something.
Additionally the verse after this doesn't help you in your quest to make Jesus to be God....
17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
This is whay Jesus is not God. He has shown us over and over that he was a servant of God sent here by God to do God's will and to give man the word of God. To help him to do this God bestowed the holy spirit upon Jesus.
Your're interperting again on something that is plain and simple to understand. Not only did he say it in that quote but he repeats in in th above quote while telling us what his role to God is (a servant sent by God).
Come on......I can do this all day long and you will still assume Jesus is God in the flesh.... contrary to what Jesus himself said.......
Sonic247
Well-Known Member
verse about God not giving his glory to another:
Isaiah 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
(and Jesus said glorify me with thine own self, with the glory that I had with you before the world began)
Also you can compare Collosian 1:16-
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
with Genesis 1:1-
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
and to make sure Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Ok...
but can you help me to understand what you're trying to say...?
Becasue later in the NT Jesus asked for that glory from God on more than one occasion. Maybe we're having a problem understanding the intent on the word itself or how it is being used in the context of the sentence or story being told.
One argument is that since Jesus was flesh that he could not be God. Jesus Himself said that anything is possible with God. Jesus was only less than God when He walked among us, when He returned to the Kingdom of God, He became His own Glorified Self. Jesus as a person was less that He was in His own glorified form. In the place where he was talking to Moses and Elijah He for a moment became glorified.
Sonic247
Well-Known Member
Or as Phillipians 2:6 says-
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Just because Paul got all caught up in explaining what he never understood does not make those confusions fact.
Paul did not know what he was talking about. He was an amazing thinker but why should we be expected to accept his explanations over the actual statements of Jesus?
Jesus was in a far higher state of communion with God tan Paul or any of the disciples ever were. After all the disciples followed and obeyed Christ, Christ often found His disciples confused, errant, ignorant and misunderstanding. Paul never even had the benefit of meeting Jesus.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays - if you are accepting the actual statements of Jesus, then your conclusion should be different. I am in no ways trying to bash you b/c I think it's good that you are looking at things in depth, but it seems to me that you are molding the words of Jesus to fit your conclusion. And I think Paul is an excellent writer and reliable as his writings are probably the earliest in the NT.
Jesus became a servant of man so that we could learn to be servants of each other. That is one of the reasons He came.
SonOfNun
Member
Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and governments shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Prince of Peace.
Zachariah 9:9, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
Matt 16:14,15, He saith unto them, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 18:36,37, Jesus answered, My kingdom is not is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest I am a king. To this end I was born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Zachariah 9:9, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
Matt 16:14,15, He saith unto them, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 18:36,37, Jesus answered, My kingdom is not is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest I am a king. To this end I was born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Paul is a master of the "Letter" as highest form of literature. That does not mean he is never wrong. He is a commentator, not a witness. If you read him as a commentator you do not need to champion his every word as "Gospel", cause it ain't Gospel.It's a personal motivation for me, and a requirement of my faith.
I'm glad you think highly of thinking carefully and deeply about religious issues and spiritual concepts. I'm pushing sixty and I've been doing it all my life.
Regards,
Scott