PeaceLoveJoy
Member
Your basing this off books that have been written by man, translated by man, and published by man.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
I'm basing this off the Torah which was dictated word for word by God to Moses and the Oral Law which explains the Written Law and was also taught to Moses by God on Mount Sinai, and even those books written by man were all taught to Moses on Mount Sinai. Everything any Jew ever writes or says in commentating on the Torah was all taught to the Jews at Mount Sinai, and I believe that this is true because the authenticity of Judaism is based solely on National Revelation at Mount Sinai, in which 3 million men, women, and children all heard God's Voice when He gave the Ten Commandments.
PeaceLoveJoy
Member
Just because that's what is taught doesn't make it true. I am not taking any sides all book of religion have more of a man influence then God's. And we are talking about 3 million men and women and children who were uneducated and taught not to think for themselves in a time where they did not have the technology or knowledge to know better. Please in no way take this as I am saying your religion is wrong I just think we all should be cautions when it comes to religion and more accepting of those who do not believe what we do. Because guess what the Jews have a book that says one thing christians have a different one mormons have one. I mean every religion has a book written by God. If we were to believe all of them simply because a whole lot of people ,in a time where we knew nothing about the world, agreed on it then we would have to believe all of them.
Yes, but the BIG difference between those religions and Judaism is that most other religions are based on the testimony of one or a few individuals who claimed that God spoke to them and gave them a new law, or something like that. Judaism is the ONLY religion in the world that claims that God revealed Himself to an ENTIRE NATION of roughly 3 million people! It's not possible for someone to fool an entire nation of 3 million people into believing that they were all present at the same place and at the same time and experienced the same exact thing; and then to pass this experience down from parent to child generation after generation. If it were not true (because some people were fishing that day, or sleeping, or traveling, etc.), then those people would have made that claim (probably by the thousands) that they did not hear anything and would automatically deny that man's "new" religion. The only way for this claim to possibly be made is if it actually happened. And that "text," the Torah, states that God revealed Himself to the ENTIRE NATION numerous times. It's unique in human history, and no other nation has been able to fabricate that claim, because you just can't lie to millions of people and expect them to be so blind that they would actually believe him. Are you getting me here?
PeaceLoveJoy
Member
New religions have been popping up left and right from the beginning of time. According to your logic all religions are right. Because they all claim a big group saw this or did this and no one contested it at the time so it must be right. The bible claim Jesus spoke to thousands and did amazing miracles, but that doesn't make it true. even today there are dictators still among us because people believe in it, doesn't make it right. And yes you can lie to millions of people politicians, government, dictators, any person in power really do it all the time. People who lack knowledge are easily influenced. And thousands of years ago during a time where they were desperate for answers who knows what really happened.
I am not claiming to know the truth for all I know you could be right. But you only learned this through your book. Which once again written by man and influenced by man. It is not unheard of for people to control groups through religion. All I say is be cautious about believing in something just because of what some book tells you.
Personally I believe in God. why? not because of a book, but because we are too complex and this world is perfect for us. There is no way things just happened. As far as heaven and hell I believe we will all join God in heaven. Because God is love, and we are his creations he brought us to this world so we can experience all the bad so when we get into heaven we will appreciate all the good. Do I have anything to back this up no. But just because I don't have a man made book to back it up doesn't make it wrong either.
I am not claiming to know the truth for all I know you could be right. But you only learned this through your book. Which once again written by man and influenced by man. It is not unheard of for people to control groups through religion. All I say is be cautious about believing in something just because of what some book tells you.
Personally I believe in God. why? not because of a book, but because we are too complex and this world is perfect for us. There is no way things just happened. As far as heaven and hell I believe we will all join God in heaven. Because God is love, and we are his creations he brought us to this world so we can experience all the bad so when we get into heaven we will appreciate all the good. Do I have anything to back this up no. But just because I don't have a man made book to back it up doesn't make it wrong either.
Shermana
Heretic
"God is not a man..."
Numbers 23:19
King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Didn't Jesus use a 'book' the Hebrew Scrolls?
Didn't Jesus use logical reasoning on the Hebrew Scriptures often prefacing his statements with the words, "It is written". Where was it written but in the already existing Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Besides God is Love, God is also Justice.
How could an enemy of God end up in heaven?
Jesus believed those of Matthew [12v32] would Not be in heaven.
The Bible hell is just the common grave of mankind where Jesus was.
-Acts 2vs27,31,32; John 11vs11-14; Ecc 9v5; Psalm 115v17; 146v4
If Adam had not disobeyed God where would Adam be today ?
The humble 'sheep'-like people of Matthew [25v32] do Not go to heaven.
They are alive on earth and at the time of Jesus glory [thousand-year reign of Christ over earth]. Those righteous sheep can remain alive and keep right on living on earth into Jesus thousand-year reign. Whereas, Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40 are the ones that go to heaven to reign with Christ.
-Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10; 1st Cor 15v50
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
My feelings exactly.
victormeldrew
Member
Have you heard of the anthropic principle? If you were a fish in an aquarium, would you call the person who keeps the water clean, and at the right temperature and salinity, God?
waitasec
Veteran Member
PeaceLoveJoy
Member
You only know what Jesus taught because the bible says he taught it. Using the bible to defend the bible is circular reasoning. Now I am not saying the bible is wrong or right. Just that it is a book written by man, translated by man, and published by man. A group of church leaders got together and decided what would go into the bible
The Straight Dope: Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1) This link breaks it down.
Every religion has a "book" stated to be from God. And maybe they are all right maybe God spoke to each in a way he would understand. But to say that one book is right while all the others are wrong is presumptuous in a way. When we get down to the bottom of it no one knows the truth. No one was there thousands of years ago to see what really happened. And no one will know the absolute truth until we have the technology to build a time machine and someone goes back in time and comes back to let us know how it really happened.
The Straight Dope: Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1) This link breaks it down.
Every religion has a "book" stated to be from God. And maybe they are all right maybe God spoke to each in a way he would understand. But to say that one book is right while all the others are wrong is presumptuous in a way. When we get down to the bottom of it no one knows the truth. No one was there thousands of years ago to see what really happened. And no one will know the absolute truth until we have the technology to build a time machine and someone goes back in time and comes back to let us know how it really happened.
Yes of course the Bible was written down by man.
Who else on this planet writes ?
Not only does the Bible say Jesus taught it, Jesus used logical reasoning on existing Scripture to base his teachings. Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, "It is written". Where was it written down but in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
The church leaders did Not decide they merely testified that the writings from the first century were regarded as reliable. So the church recognized that those first-century books [scrolls] were considered as the authoritative Word from God. That means Bible canon was established early on the stage,
so the church did Not have to establish it but testify that it was already accepted.
Ancient manuscripts support Bible canon, Bible translation.
The Bible is unique in that it has corresponding or parallel verses and passages that can be studied by subject or topic arrangement.
-Acts 17v11
What the churches of Christendom have done is what Luke warned us about at Acts [20vs29,30] that wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing would fleece the flock of God.
2nd Thess [2vs2-8] the clergy [man of sin; son of perdition/destruction] sit themselves in the temple [houses of worship] as if they are God when in reality they are anti-God.
Jesus forewarned that genuine wheat Christians would grow together over the centuries with fake weed/tares Christians until the end time of the harvest [our time frame] or the time of separation of Matthew 25vs31,32.
What fault can you find with Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, the Golden Rule or Jesus new commandment of John 13vs34,35 ?
JosephThomas
Member
yes he did.
But in metaphors, I italic because their really not metaphors but the human lack of diction.
Jesus Christ says, "I am the light of this world."
justly reflecting the Holy Spirit in all Psalms and other parables.
But in metaphors, I italic because their really not metaphors but the human lack of diction.
Jesus Christ says, "I am the light of this world."
justly reflecting the Holy Spirit in all Psalms and other parables.
PeaceLoveJoy
Member
Where you there when the church leaders merely testified that the writings from the first century were regarded as reliable? No was anyone alive today there when it happened? No oh then you really don't know what was in their hearts at the time they decided all of this. That is my point. In order to say the bible is 100% true you have to say all other book are completely wrong even the nice Hebrew scripture Jesus taught from, because the Jews do not believe in Jesus and that goes against the bible. But we also have to say every hand that had part in making the bible from the many many people who wrote it to the people who translated it to those who decided what went into it all had to have a pure heart and had no malices intent. You state yourself " the clergy [man of sin; son of perdition/destruction] sit themselves in the temple [houses of worship] as if they are God when in reality they are anti-God." When it comes down to it we really don't know, and I am sorry but I do not believe that the answer lies in any book. All religious books were written in a time where man did not have knowledge of this world.
Yes, but it's a claim that can't be fabricated, if it were first claimed to be true by those who supposedly witnessed it, and since the Torah wasn't written 50 years ago, but more than 3,000 years ago, then the event took place at the time the claim was being made. If a new religion of a few people made such a claim and couldn't back it up, then you have a good argument. But the "story" in the Torah of such a national revelation was written at the same period of history as the "story" happened.
waitasec
Veteran Member
by people who didn't understand the natural world the way we do today...
this was a legend created by a nomadic people for the purpose of solidarity...
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pwfaith
Active Member
I have never understood how people could say Jesus did not say he was God, it was the very reason he was crucified!
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
John 10:31 Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me? 33 The Jews answered him: We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god. 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your Law, I said: YOU are gods? 35 If he called gods those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Gods Son?
When he told people that he was Gods Son, they knew that he was saying that he was a divine being...a being who existed in Gods form such as a spirit. That is what they objected to. They accused him of making himself more then human. Well of course we know that Jesus was more then human...he existed in heaven with God, so he was more then just a human.
But as you can see in the account, he said that he was 'Gods Son'...not God himself.
Shermana
Heretic
No, the official charge was claiming to be the Son of God. When they accuse him of making himself to be "a god" (not "God" as most Translations state, since there is no article there), the actual charge is making himself EQUAL to God, which he denies. This is why he responds with John 10;34. He also says "The Father is Greater than I" to show how not equal they are.