-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
Jesus didn't say no and never will so your straw man is completely empty.
This does not say that Jesus is a messenger. The onus is on you to explain why you think it does.
There is not a "God said" in those verses.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And your charge that my question was a strawman is baseless.
Now I fail to see how the onus is on me to show he was a messenger when you're the one originally making the claim he wasn't....
But here it goes....
John 17:8 implies that his god gave him the word (message) to give to his disciples. Here's How John The Baptist put it.
NIV
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
God's Word (1995 Edition)
The man whom God has sent speaks God's message. After all, God gives him the Spirit without limit.
A heavily trinitarian influence online bible site says this in their commentary section....(John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.)
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
..... "By measure - Not in a small degree, but fully, completely. The prophets were inspired on particular occasions to deliver special messages"
Vincent's Word Studies
"The words (τὰ ῥήματα
Not words, nor individual words, but the words - the complete message of God""He is God's own messenger out of heaven, and speaks God's own words."
What I find interesting is that this same commentator points to John 3:34 just as I did above and elsewhere in this thread.
But as far as 17:8 and how 3:34 is related to Yeshua being a messenger this same online bible says the following (John 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.)
NLT
for I have passed on to them the message you gave me.
God's Word (1995 Edition)
"because I gave them the message that you gave me. They have accepted this message..."
Vincent's Word StudiesThe words (τὰ ῥήματα
Compare thy word (λόγον
, John 17:6. That signified the gospel message in its entirety. This, the message considered in its constituent parts.Just like we don't have one single verse in the whole of the four gospels where "Yeshua said"....'I'm God'......
At least at John 12:49 Yeshua is explicitly saying his god who sent him commanded him what to say. (God told him what to say and how to say it)...
John 12:49 (NIV)
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Gods's Word (1995 Edition)
I have not spoken on my own. Instead, the Father who sent me told me what I should say and how I should say it.
But wait....12:49 is ended at 12:50 where Yeshua says.....
NIV
I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.
:biglaugh:
Last edited:
Shermana
Heretic
He is saying what G-d said in order to make a point, therefore he said "G-d said". Regardless if it's a new command or old. He was still referring to G-d as a separate being, no way around it.
What is a "physical will" exactly? What about "Let your will be done, not mine", does that not prove a separate will? How about a separate mind and memory while we're at it, why doesn't Jesus know "The day"?
Thus, if Jesus has to say "Let your will be done, not mine", that means their wills are NOT the same. If there is only will being carried out, then it's G-ds will which Jesus is accomodating to. I think your understanding of the word "Will" here needs some correction.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I think he was but I bet Muffled will try to argue that a messenger and a prophet are different. While that can be true,,,they both can be used interchangeably. I think Yeshua's prayer to his god in chapter 17 is very clear that he is a messenger as I have pointed out using trinitarian commentary...
Muffled
Jesus in me
Jesus dos not say that He is a prophet but he does recognize that people prceive Hima as one.
Luke 1:67 ¶ And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, ....76 Yea and thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Most High: For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to make ready his ways;
The person for whom John the Baptist was a prophet, was called The Most High and nemed Jesus.
Muffled
Jesus in me
And your charge that my question was a strawman is baseless.
Now I fail to see how the onus is on me to show he was a messenger when you're the one originally making the claim he wasn't....
But here it goes....
John 17:8 implies that his god gave him the word (message) to give to his disciples. Here's How John The Baptist put it.
NIV
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
God's Word (1995 Edition)
The man whom God has sent speaks God's message. After all, God gives him the Spirit without limit.
A heavily trinitarian influence online bible site says this in their commentary section....(John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.)
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
..... "By measure - Not in a small degree, but fully, completely. The prophets were inspired on particular occasions to deliver special messages"
Vincent's Word Studies
"The words (τὰ ῥήματα
"He is God's own messenger out of heaven, and speaks God's own words."
What I find interesting is that this same commentator points to John 3:34 just as I did above and elsewhere in this thread.
But as far as 17:8 and how 3:34 is related to Yeshua being a messenger this same online bible says the following (John 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.)
NLT
for I have passed on to them the message you gave me.
God's Word (1995 Edition)
"because I gave them the message that you gave me. They have accepted this message..."
Vincent's Word StudiesThe words (τὰ ῥήματα
Compare thy word (λόγον
Just like we don't have one single verse in the whole of the four gospels where "Yeshua said"....'I'm God'......
At least at John 12:49 Yeshua is explicitly saying his god who sent him commanded him what to say. (God told him what to say and how to say it)...
John 12:49 (NIV)
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Gods's Word (1995 Edition)
I have not spoken on my own. Instead, the Father who sent me told me what I should say and how I should say it.
But wait....12:49 is ended at 12:50 where Yeshua says.....
NIV
I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.
:biglaugh:
You asked me if it were ok to ignore something that never happened. However you set up your staw man as though it did happen. I don't have any problem ignoring emprieness.
Both Jesus and messengers speak the Word of God but the messenger has God speak to him first but Jesus is God and does not have that intervening process.
The commentator is comparing propehts who hear a message from God in contrast to Jesus who just speaks the word of God.
This commentator is not correct. The NLT and God's Word are bad translations.
Granted, but Jesus states the equivalent to "I am God" but does not do so with "God said."
This is a question of authority. Jesus is saying that there is not a separate authority other than God for His words.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
You have no scriptural basis for this assertion. You seem to do this a lot then charge others for this same characteristic you're displaying. Yeshua does have that "intervening" process. He says it explicitly.
John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 8:40
But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard from God.
John 8:47
He that is from God hears God's words........(basically confirming what I said about John 3:34)
In order for him to speak it he (first) heard it from his god.
It has already been confirmed in later chapters of John that the (word) that Yeshua gave the people and his disciples was God's message that was given to him before his god sent him. So your understanding is lacking considering it is explicitly what he said and the commentators agree that the (word) that was given is (message).
The word does mean (message)
Strong's Greek: 4487. ???? (rhéma) -- a word, by impl. a matter
You haven't shown this to be fact. These two versions are reputable enough to be listed along with the NIV, KJV and Douay Rheims version at biblos.com (a heavily trinitarian influenced website). Futhermore the translations I provided are in line with the others that are listed in parallel at their site as well as being lexicographically consistent. Translation errors are present in every "version" of NT scripture. I have shown that the (words) from "God" to Yeshua make him a "messenger" in the explicit sense considering he outright says he gave to them the message his god gave him.
A Catholic Encyclopedia states, (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Character of Jesus Christ) "as it is they prove at least that Jesus is a messenger of God, a friend of God, inspired by God."
Even while being true to trinitarian dogma and holding to the supposed divinity of Yeshua they make my case for me in their agreement with me that Yeshua is a messenger.
This is very doubtful. John 12:49 and 50 reveal that before Yeshua was sent by his god, his god commanded him what he should say (what message he was to deliver) and how he should say it. Since he had no authority to speak of his own he was given the authority as well as the message and how the message should be presented. This makes him a messenger.
NIV
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.
This contradicts your assertion that (God didn't say)...when in fact it says it plainly right there that he did.
Last edited:
1robin
Christian/Baptist
If you are an equal member (in substance not role) of a three person board of a company. When you address a customer you may refer to the company as taking this stance or that, or even the presidents name may be used in certain situations. Does that mean you are not a member of this board with equal substance and claim?
He spoke this when he had assumed a subordinate role for the mission at hand. This included the effects from a human nature that was weaker than his devine one and maybe as weak as our own. I don't see an obvious problem.
If Jesus's will included the effects of will derived from his weaker human nature then an appeal to a being having a will that was not affected by this would be appropriate. If the Human part of his nature was not similar to ours than his life would not have been as profoundly relevant.
Just like you can have a man and wife have a son. The son grows up in his father presence, resembling his father. They way he talks, the way he acts etc.
This was the same for jesus. He had such a close relationship with god, his father, that he mirrored exactly his father actions - but on earth, amongst people.
Shermana
Heretic
Right, but therefore he wouldn't be "The God", but "A god" since he's not the same being as "The God".
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
But hardly the "same"..."one" (God). You description sets him separate from his god.
Your analogy does nothing to help further the misconception Yeshua is "God". I can grow up resembling my father, walking similarly and sounding similarly to my father but I am not (The Father). I would never be my father. I will always be his son...a distinct separate person.
Aabraham ben Azar
Active Member
I think Christians are confused regarding : God , Messenger of God and Angel ( holy spirit) as they mixed them like Greek Salad , they consider them all Gods ( Three in One ) but Jews and Muslims seperate them from beggining God ( Elohim/Allah ), Messenger of God ( Nevi /Nebi) and Angel ( Rakh Qadesh / Al-Ruh Al-Qodos ).
Conclusion:
1)- God Father = Elohim/Allah
2)- God Son = Messenger of God / Nevi /Nebi
3)- God Holy Spirit = Angel /Rukh Qadesh / Al-Ruh Al-Qodos
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I agree.....with the emphasis on the word "Greek"....which is where a lot of their (Christians) ideas come from, including other pagan religions of the day....
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
What i believe is going on is that The God of "Our" ansestors speaks in his word as he is One God. God speaks of being the only of his kind and that no one is even close to being like him. God alone is Creator, Saviour, Rock, and God. (basic)
Now for us Christians, we read the New testament that says Jesus was the Eternal Word of God (1john1:1-5) that became flesh. That this Eternal Word created everything and is our Saviour Jesus Christ. Not only that, we read he is exactly like God, if God became a human. Jesus says in the NT that to see him, is to see God the Father and that he is the Image of God.
All though what I call the Old Testament(books of Moses), we see the Jewish nation making Idols and calling it God... What God Has done, he has found a way to bring us a Image of himself that we can worship and call God. (Jesus) There is a passage in the New Testament that says in my own words, "You know that cloud that followed us Day and night that we worshipped as God and our Rock, that was Jesus. 1 Cor 10:1-4
But what i see in your analogy is that you think I(christian) believe God is like a "greek salad" mixed together, but what i can say to you is that why do you limit a infinite God to being only the lettus or only the crutons... God is more than we can imagine for he created us.
In Love,
Tom
Muffled
Jesus in me
If I write a letter to a freind and then later quote something from an earlier letter that I wrote, have I become a different person? The obvious answer is no and neither has Jesus.
The physical mind has a will. My stomach will tell my physical mind that it is hngry and the physical mind will have a will to eat but my spiritual mind can overrule that will and choose not to eat.
That is the physical will. It does not want to suffer pain, but the spirit of God that resides in Jesus will overrule the physical mind and go to the cross anyway. It is as Jesus says "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."
This is a similar statement to the one Jesus makes in Acts: 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority. To know something in the physical mind one has to be in the body to know it and there is no guarantee that the Apostles or Jesus will be in the body when their corresponding events occur. Besides that it is an easy way to evade answering the question. God has a tendency to not give out more information than is needed. This is an instance where English is deficient. In Spanish there would e two words, one to say there is familiarity and another to say that someting has been experienced. For instance I know that food tastes better with salt because I have experienced it but I only know that Octupus is tasty from those who have said so. So I could say that I don't know that octupus tastes good (experientially) even though I do know it tastes good based on what others say.
Yes. The physical will of the body is not the same as the will of the Spirit of God. However Jesus is only partially characterized by His body and part of the characterization of Jesus is God. However the two are not separate but are joined as one for the duration of the incarnation.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is problematic. God never wants us to worship an image. We worship Jesus because God is there, not becasue the image adds anything to God worth worshipping.
Shermana
Heretic
You worship Jesus because you "worship" (bow down to) any rightful Divine authority, as David was "worshiped" and Saul was "worshiped". The problem is a misunderstanding of the commandment and the use of the word "And". It is "Thou shalt Worship the LORD thy god AND serve Him only". This is why David was "worshiped". What do you think "Worship" actually means in the Hebrew and the Greek?
Very often the misunderstanding of a mere "And" results in radically different Theologies.
Very often the misunderstanding of a mere "And" results in radically different Theologies.
Shermana
Heretic
If you referred to yourself as another being, then I'd say you have some identity issues. Try to keep your example coherent. Your example would be right if Jesus said "I said". Not "God said". So apparently Jesus was referring to another being.
That makes no sense because Jesus was referring to His spiritual will. Why would he not be?
If I don't want to get punched in the face by someone by insulting their mom, is that a Physical will or a SPiritual will? By not wanting to be executed, was that Jesus's physical will taking over his mind? No, that was his "Spiritual" will. All this talking about different kinds of "Wills" as opposed to a plain reading of the text is a perfect example of the gymnastics Trinitarians and Modalists will go through to arrive at their presuppositions at the expense of a plain reading of the text.
Was in he in a physical body in Revelation 1:1 when he received a revelation from G-d? Why would Jesus need to receive a revelation? Why did Jesus know some things from G-d but not others?
This difference in 'know" exists in French and other languages. However it's irrelevant, If Jesus was revealed things by the Father that He didn't know, that means TWO DIFFERENT BEINGS.
And if Jesus hears something from G-d, then that means Jesus is not G-d. That means G-d is someone else.
Please provide scriptural proof of this concept of a physical and spiritual will or kindly admit that you are engaging in some twister-esque gymnastics. A plain reading of the text is that Jesus' will itself was to not be executed. "Take this cup from me if you will". "Let your will be done, not mine" does not mean "let your spiritual will be done, not my physical will", Jesus's physical will IS his spiritual will. You compared a person's free-willed mind to the processes of his body. Doesn't work.