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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
1robin
Christian/Baptist
How do we equal God?
creXifiction
New Member
Hello to Everyone. My name is reX.
I would like to join Your Great Discussion and Debate.
I am very interested in the Bible and the quran discussion and have spent the last 10 years in study and discussion.
I have made a Website that presents what I have found to be Factual and True.
You can ask me and I will give it to You.
REMEMBER... The bible is filled - from - Front to Back with Violence and Controversy And even Godly Hate and Death of Gods Enemies.
I Made the website to show the message of the Bible.
I Love all people from all Religions and Races. and Hope the best for All.
I think that the Bible is Pretty Clear about IDENTIFYING God / The Creator HIMSELF as Entering INTO His Creation - in the FORM /
MORPH of a Human * MAN.
REMEMBER. Jesus said -in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Remember....... God Walked and Talked ... in the Garden, with Adam and Eve. And God HIMSELF Visited Abraham and sat and Ate supper )( AS A MAN....
REMEMBER in Gen 18:1 The - LORD appeared unto - *( Abraham }- ......... Verse :8 - The Lord Ate Supper with Abraham.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham:
John 8:19 THEY SAID to Jesus Where is thy Father ?
24. Jesus said-if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father
jESUS then CLEARLY SAID...... IF ye believe not that I am,....
Ye shall die in your sin
And 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
The Bible continues to Make the Claim That jESUS is the Father
In Ph, 2:6 ... Jesus WAS the Form ( /Morphe - Greek ]
of God, thought it not robbery / PLUNDER- Greek] .. to be equal with God But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the
form ( /MORPH - Greek] of a servant .
The Greek Uses the Word MORPH to Describe Who jESUS Was.
jESUS was the Morph of God Almighty. Manifested in Flesh.
All of the FULLNESS of the Godhead / DEITY
Greek 2320 θεότης Theotēs / theh-ot'-ace
divinity ( - godhead.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I can Give More Verses if You with. What do You Think ?
Thank You
I would like to join Your Great Discussion and Debate.
I am very interested in the Bible and the quran discussion and have spent the last 10 years in study and discussion.
I have made a Website that presents what I have found to be Factual and True.
You can ask me and I will give it to You.
REMEMBER... The bible is filled - from - Front to Back with Violence and Controversy And even Godly Hate and Death of Gods Enemies.
I Made the website to show the message of the Bible.
I Love all people from all Religions and Races. and Hope the best for All.
I think that the Bible is Pretty Clear about IDENTIFYING God / The Creator HIMSELF as Entering INTO His Creation - in the FORM /
MORPH of a Human * MAN.
REMEMBER. Jesus said -in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Remember....... God Walked and Talked ... in the Garden, with Adam and Eve. And God HIMSELF Visited Abraham and sat and Ate supper )( AS A MAN....
REMEMBER in Gen 18:1 The - LORD appeared unto - *( Abraham }- ......... Verse :8 - The Lord Ate Supper with Abraham.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham:
John 8:19 THEY SAID to Jesus Where is thy Father ?
24. Jesus said-if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father
jESUS then CLEARLY SAID...... IF ye believe not that I am,....
Ye shall die in your sin
And 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
The Bible continues to Make the Claim That jESUS is the Father
In Ph, 2:6 ... Jesus WAS the Form ( /Morphe - Greek ]
of God, thought it not robbery / PLUNDER- Greek] .. to be equal with God But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the
form ( /MORPH - Greek] of a servant .
The Greek Uses the Word MORPH to Describe Who jESUS Was.
jESUS was the Morph of God Almighty. Manifested in Flesh.
All of the FULLNESS of the Godhead / DEITY
Greek 2320 θεότης Theotēs / theh-ot'-ace
divinity ( - godhead.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I can Give More Verses if You with. What do You Think ?
Thank You
1robin
Christian/Baptist
No you don't. For example I was shown four different interpretations for a single verse the other day.
1. Jesus the Christ did ........
2. Christ did ...........
3. Jesus called the Christ did ...........
4. Jesus did .............
Now the worst possible conclusion is that we cannot believe Christ did .........
What you use to invalidate historical claims is exactly what scholars look for to indicate authenticity. You want the same basic story with told from different aspects. If identical, copied from one source would be yelled from the rooftops. What we have are exactly that you want. Four people telling different aspects to different audiences for different purposes that have the same core. Not one text of any kind is even remotely as accurate as the bible in ancient history. There is no second place. For example Caesar's Gallic wars has two extant copies from 1000 years later and was known to be propaganda at the time written and yet is taught in colleges around the world. The bible has thousands of manuscripts with a few hundred years and at most 5% error and 0% error in essential doctrine. Why would anyone demand more?
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Hello. I saw no link to a website but let me start by getting clarification. You say the bible is full of violence. The bible is a record of man's history in large part. Would you not expected it to record violence? If you are suggesting God is unjustly violent then what verse out of the new testament could be used to harm anyone or what verse even in the OT could be used to justify general violence? Or how do you know God was unjustifiably violent at any point?
Your post is hard to read because of the fount and colors. To call attention to everything is to call attention to nothing. It appears to be fragmentary premises, but lacking a conclusion.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it is possible. I certainly have known Christians who were searching for God. I would consider such persons as Christian in tradition or by theology.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is possbile but that doesn't mean that the person is aware of it. I have learned to listen carefully to everyone for just that reason.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I like to learn a little Greek. Godhead sounds like a made up word. Is that because the Greek conveys more than just the average meaning of a god in the Greek Pantheon?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why would you consider them "Christian" if they're not Christian? Do you think that only those in the Christian faith search for God? I can tell you first hand that this is not true.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I would argue for several reasons Christian claims to finding God are the only viable claims to such or at least the most reliable claims to such as a category of any. I am certain non-Christians constantly search for God. I doubt much of any of them find him. Now that is not including what Craig describes as the unevangelised of which I am not educated, but are an extremely small sub category.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
If you were to actually study other religions and their approach, you wouldn't be making such claims as above. Let me give one example.
I was down in southern Mexico studying ancient Mayan culture, learning from a professor who also taught anthropology at one of the Mexican universities (I can't remember which one). As you may know, the Mayans performed human sacrifices, and one of their ways of doing such was to have two teams playing what we call "lacrosse", and it was the winning team that was given the honor to be sacrificed.
To say that people in other religions don't feel they have found God(s) is terribly short-sighted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. When you have suicide bombers willing to sacrifice their lives in the name of "Allah", do you honestly feel that they don't feel they've found "God"?
I was at a fundamentalist Protestant service about 25 or so years ago (I used to visit many different churches as I taught a comparative religions course), and the pastor made a comment that made my blood boil. He was talking about being down in Mexico and witnessing a Good Friday commemoration whereas there was a mock crucifixion (no nails), and then a funeral procession whereas the "body of Jesus" was in a coffin that people were throwing themselves over and wailing. The pastor told his congregation, and I can at least get very close to quoting him word-for-word: "We don't do that-- we're Christians!".
The irony is that many in some parts of the world think that it is Americans in general that are luke-warm to their beliefs and tend to take more direction from secular influences that religious ones. And there's actually some research that I've seen to back that up whereas most Americans who are affiliated are more apt to take direction from family, friends, and secular leaders versus from their religious leaders. I remember a while back reading an article penned by a Lutheran pastor who said that he feels that maybe only one person in ten will take more moral directions from the church than from other sources.
I can assert through my studies and experiences that so many people in other religions throughout the world have firm beliefs in the "God" or "Gods".
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What you say above reminds me of what Gandhi said, namely that too many elevated the man and forgot his message.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
If you review my posts you would not have claimed this. Just yesterday I mentioned the winners being beheaded game in Mexico. I made no comment about what others feel about their efforts to look for God. Most other faiths do not even make similar doctrinal offers of contact with God for every believer. Most fall into two categories. No offer of contact with a deity and conditional offers made to a few that achieve some extraordinary level of knowledge.
I am quite sure most people have confidence they are doing the right things to find God and I am equally sure virtually no evidence exists that justify that belief. Only a faith that includes a very high number of it's adherents that would testify to directly experiencing God would have such evidence. No other faith has a meaningful fraction of the number that Christianity does that claim such.
I have followed theological debate for close to 20 years. I have personally debated for maybe 10. I have been a prayer councilor for many years. I have read extensively on salvation and supernatural experience. In al that time I have met (or heard of) 3 people who are not Christians that make claims to experience with God plus many that claimed the knew someone who claimed this but could not put me in touch with them. That is not to say I do not believe there are millions in other faiths that claim such but there are millions who will agree to anything. The point is they do not have hundreds of millions, possibly billions, or any meaningful fraction of what Christianity does making these claims and do not even have similar doctrinal promises (in general) with Christianity.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
This is a relative and meaningless conclusion. Simple minded compared to what? We will be just as simple minded compared to our grandchildren and they theirs. It is a relative, subjective and meaningless distinction.
Enough about us. Christ message is the most sophisticated theological doctrine in human history. Is the Trinity simple? Is substitutionary atonement simple? etc..... They are mysteries so profound even the organizations tasked with comprehending them can't, have all but given up and classify them as mysteries.
Simple things are not usually things that produce unending conflict. However the existence of conflict is no suggestion that a pure and comprehendible truth doe snot exist. It is a bizarre criteria to neglect acquiring truth for anything that does not have universal agreement.
The Christian message as a whole is sophisticated, complex, and mysterious. Its' basic requirements for me are however understandable and knowable and come with confirmation of understanding when achieved. In the exact same way resurrection verified Christ's message, being born again verifies the understanding that produced it. Unlike any other major faith Christianity confirms right understanding in every single believer who achieves it.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Americans tend to emphasize faith very often in more individualistic ways that many other cultures, but that should not be confused with not having faith in God(s). It just often tends to manifest itself differently as many cultures tend to be more into what we call "group think" versus stressing individualism.
So, which is the right way? Depends on one's perspective, which tends to reflect the cultural traits one is brought up in.
Numbers really don't matter here, especially if one looks back at history. A bit less than 2000 years ago, the early Christians numbered far less than observant Jews, so would you say then that Judaism was clearly the right path? And Jesus said that the path was "narrow", so might it be that even most Christians may not be on the right path?
A great many people claim to experience God but often in different ways (see above). Just about every culture historically appears to have believed that God(s) was on their side as long as they believed and obeyed God's commands.
Irrelevant. For example, do you believe Islam is more "meaningful" than Judaism because it has significantly greater number of adherents?
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I thing you are really misunderstanding my claims. I am not making any kind of methodology distinction. I am making a point about the evidence as it concerns the success of the method. No other faith has even a meaningful fraction of the people who claim to have met God using the Bible. Most do not even offer it doctrinally.
I am not saying one doctrine is superior to another on any basis beyond the evidence it succeeded.
If all of them produced equal number or none of them produced any evidence of it's adherents finding God through an experience they would all be equally valid or invalid with one exception. The Abrahamic religions and Christianity especially come in the context of God reaching down to man instead of the others recording their efforts concerning man reaching God. This is not proof of anything but is far more philosophically justifiable.
Again I was not primarily discussing which doctor was better beyond the evidence that one has produced the vast majority of people who experienced a cure.
The one that unites man with God is the right one. There are many other reasons to think one better than another but that reason trumps everything. IOW if I see a bunch of peoples lives changed drastically for the better like Cash and Foreman primarily the product of one system I am going with it.
They make all the difference if rightly viewed. There are two relevant things here. A small percentage of people will claim anything (from alien abduction, astral projection, big foot) whatever. They are not meaningful and not important. Usually a large population of people agreeing to have experienced an event correlates with truth. In fact the certainty of a claim usually varies exactly with the numbers involved. The relative smallness of Christian communities at times is actually in my favor. Despite empire wide persecution and only a 2000year history it has produced maybe 90% of claims to experiencing God. Numbers never reach proof but these numbers are so lopsided and enormous they get close. They certainly justify Christian faith.
Not in my experience and I have been vitally interested in it specifically. In fact if you want to wade through 7000 of my previous posts you will find me constantly asking the question. To date in this thread I have had one claim to it outside Christianity. I also am talking only about experiences that have no viable natural explanation. Even epilepsy can produce quite a few claims to religious experience, cooks, mistaken claims, and wishful thinking can just about any numbers from any other faith but can't even begin to touch Christianity's numbers.
Let me state again you have completely misunderstood my claim. I am not talking about adherents. If I was I would have given 2.2 billion as the numbers just for today alone. I didn't I gave hundreds of millions and possibly billions over the last 2000 years because I ma talking about only born again Christians (which BTW are the only actual Christians that exist).
Let me explain the doctrinal differences as well.
1. To become a Muslim you must only agree there is but one God and that Muhammad is a prophet. You have no way to know this and if wrong no way to find out until to late and it is a purely intellectual agreement not an experience.
2. To be a Jewish (Judaism) adherent you must agree there is one God and obey laws that cannot even be done any more in many cases.
3. I think Hinduism only offers divine experience in the form of enlightened wisdom which is only offered to a few Gurus.
4. Most of the rest of the major faiths are pure philosophy or intellectual agreement with a historical claim.
5. To become a Christian:
From John 3:
3 Jesus replied, I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mothers womb and be born a second time, can he?
5 Jesus answered, I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, You must be born from above. 8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus replied, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered, Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you dont understand these things? 11 I tell you the solemn truth, we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I have told you people about earthly things and you dont believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaventhe Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
It includes intellectual consent to a proposition but produces a supernatural event that confirms the truth of the agreement. It is required of anyone who claims to be a Christian not only a select elite few. It is the entrance point.
Tumah
Veteran Member
So Christianity has the most experiences of G-d. Yet only the born-again denomination (not sure if this is meant to imply the Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelical Protestant or Methodist version) are the real Christians.
So I am understanding from this that the only ones that actually have these experiences are born again Christians. Other Christians make no such claims.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wrong on several counts. First of all, Jews historically have had this personal relationship with God, and I would suggest that it is a more mature relationship than what you will find in a great many churches, probably including yours.
In Judaism, besides intently studying Torah in immense detail, we believe that we can disagree with God, get angry with God, and even second-guess God-- respectfully, however. And there's precedence for this in scripture, such as Abraham's arguing with God when it came to Sodom and Gomorrah and Job's frustration with God.
As you may be aware of, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church, and I was never taught that we could do that-- just that we should unquestionably obey. My father's side of the family was mostly Baptist, and I've been to a great many of their services, and I never heard that freedom being taught to that extent which I now experience in Judaism. Just blindly follow-- no reasoning necessary. Just listen to the "powerful sermons" from Pastor Whatever.
I had a dog a bit over a decade ago, and that dog would once in a while sneak out of the house and wander around for maybe a half hour or so, and getting him to come to back was all but impossible. But he eventually returned each time. When I told the vet about that, she said that I must have a smart dog. I asked how she could know that, and she responded that a smart dog has a curiosity, and they typically don't take directions that go contrary to that too well, but they know how to get back.
To me, a mature faith involves a lot of questioning minus blind obedience, and that I have found in Judaism to be extensively emphasized. However, I didn't find it in fundamentalist Protestantism. There we've seen people drummed out of the churches and seminaries if they dared question some teachings.
If God is to "personal" as you said God should be, then I would suggest we treat God like a good father, but not one so high up in the clouds that the relationship is impersonal. I much prefer the give and take of a real father and son relationship that involves a real personal relationship. After all, what would you expect to find a non-theistic guy like me being fully at home in a place of worship, plus being given the teaching responsibilities I have?
I mention the above not to convince you or anyone else that they should convert to Judaism, but simply that there are other faiths besides Christianity that do teach a "personal" relationship with God(s) even if you don't want to recognize that basic fact. But the idea of being "personal" tends to vary on one's perspective, much like our own earthly fathers and how we approach them are often different.
Shalom
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Kind of, there are no non-born again Christians. They are not associated with any particular denomination either but are spread out among most. The big two (Catholicism and Protestantism) both include creeds supporting the born again experience. My guestimate concerning numbers assumes that only 50% of those claiming to be Christians are truly born again. I write off half to begin with. I however could even divide by ten and would still have numbers so large no other faith would be close.
I have looked up data and it supports the numbers I used if averaged. I can provide an example of this data if you wish. There is no questioning the disparity of numbers so that only leaves my claim about what a true Christian is. I will supply the most descriptive versus in the Bible concerning what makes a person a Christian.
3 Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2 He came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God. 3 Jesus answered him, Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. 4 Nicodemus said to him, How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mothers womb and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, You[d] must be born from above.[e] 8 The wind[f] blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus said to him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered him, Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?
11 Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen; yet you[g] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[h] 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgement, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.[j]
John 3:1-21 - Jesus Teaches Nicodemus - Now there was - Bible Gateway
1. In summary there are no non-born again Christians. Sitting in a church will no more make you a Christian than sitting in a garage will make you a car. Neither will wearing a chain around your neck with a cross on it, memorizing the bible, achieving some arbitrary level of goodness, or answering a census by checking the Christian box.
2. My numbers are conservative, reasonable, and agree with data.
3. Even if my numbers were significantly flawed the disparity is so great they could be halved or lose an order of magnitude and still drastically exceed any other major faith's claims.
Conclusion. The sheer number of people within Christianity claiming to have experienced God compared with any other major faith indicates very strongly Christianity is the correct path to salvation but does not prove it.