Did Jesus say obviously " I am a God" in Gospel?

[Dirty Penguin]

Let's imagine they do disagree.

Who do you think has more biblical authority? Jesus or Paul.

You and Katzpur are LDS but you seem to be on two different ends of this spectrum. Why is taht? You talk like a trinitarian but Katz does not. Can you clarify your position on this.

Is it your belief that Jesus is God?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So it say God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus raised himself from the dead, it also say in the Bible the Spirit raised him from the dead. And by the way only God can raise a person from the dead. If there are no contridictions in the Bible then the only answer is that God, Jesus and the spirit are one. And is it so hard to believe God could incarnate himself as a human. God is more gracious then you realize, he didn't stay seperated from our affliction he bore them with us (yet without sin), he doesn't sit in heaven without caring who gets there or not but he came to seek and to save that which was lost.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Please tell us Why Jesus will be ascending to his father, God???.....If he is God......

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I would consider that a reference to Baha`u'llah actually, expecially when it's in context

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

The original TaNakh says:
9,5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; 9,6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this. {P}
(Nev'im (Prophets), Yeshayahu (Isaiah))

Some take this to mean the son that was born to the king of Judea at the time of Yeshayahu. The implication being that it was a big "suck up" on the part of the prophet. That particular prince never lived up to the hype.

Regards,
Scott

Thank you. I like how you explained it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

"men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazarene',
a MAN publicly shown by God to you through powerfull
works and portents and signs that GOD DID THROUH him
in your midst, just as you your selfs know. Acts 2,22.
Is this not what the Almighty did with all His prophets?

This is perfect.....

can I attach a rider to this bill?

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Can some one tell me what God was Jesus referring to if he is God???

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You have two different concepts confused. The references you cite are lower case and not the prophesied 'Son of God' (Messiah/annointed one etc). Compare Matt 26:63,64 where both Son of Man and Son of God are capitalised and used interchangebly.

You really need to brush up on your Jewish history, which is an important key to understanding these sayings. This is incredibly basic Jewish stuff of the day.

I think he is on to something. My question to you is why are focusing on Capital verses lower case? The NT is written in greek not the hebrew that you're focusing on. More interesting is I was under the impression that the hebrew or aramaic script did not contain capitalization.

Thomas said to him "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"

Believed that he was alive...Not God. Even with Thomas saying this we can't know the emotional state he was in when he said this. There's nothing in that to suggest he was referring to Jesus when he said "AND MY God"...


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

There's that "My God" again.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Theres two ways of explaining this,
1.In the court house the judge is refered to as your honour,
or your worship, this doesnt mean his God.

2.This verse is only in the trinitarian version,
but there are many other translations which the
verse is different, so lets use verses ALL christians use.:yes:

Here are some right here......

Darby's English Translation
9:38 And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage.

Douay Rheims
9:38 And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

sorry i can't help it, i just had to respond.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#hnv
Vulgate - Jhn 9:38 -at ille ait credo Domine et procidens adoravit eum Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

I love the vulgate because that translation says he procedded to adore him....


But really, to me the question was asked by Jesus in 9:35 (in part) Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Do you believe I'm the SON of God?

NOT

Do you believe I'm God.....and he said I believed and bowed and wrshipped him....

Just my opinion.....

 

[rocketman]

My question to you is why are focusing on Capital verses lower case? The NT is written in greek not the hebrew that you're focusing on. More interesting is I was under the impression that the hebrew or aramaic script did not contain capitalization.

I never said it was written in hebrew. The expressions were titular and often written with capitals in some of older greek scripts. At any rate, even without capitalisation the words are still titular in nature and not generic because they amounted to identification equal to blasphemy.

Even with Thomas There's nothing in that to suggest he was referring to Jesus when he said "AND MY God"...

Er, you can't be serious. "... and Thomas said TO HIM. " Yes he would have been excited, that doesn't change the fact that what was said was said TO Jesus, nor the fact that his disciples worshipped him after he ascended to heaven.

 

[rocketman]

But really, to me the question was asked by Jesus in 9:35 (in part) Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Do you believe I'm the SON of God?

NOT

Do you believe I'm God.....and he said I believed and bowed and wrshipped him....

Just my opinion.....

You seem to have trouble reading. Jesus said Son of man not Son of God. And when the dude asked Jesus who the Son of Man was, Jesus said it was himself. Either way Jesus let the guy worship him despite being a supporter of the shema. He didn't worship Jesus earlier for being a healer or prophet or for giving him his sight back, no, he worshipped him because was the Son of Man. See one of my following posts for more on this.

 

[lilithu]

You seem to have trouble reading. Jesus said Son of man not Son of God. And when the dude asked Jesus who the Son of Man was, Jesus said it was himself. Either way Jesus let the guy worship him despite being a supporter of the shema. He didn't worship Jesus earlier for being a healer or prophet or for giving him his sight back, no, he worshipped him because was the Son of Man.

Since when does Son of Man equal God??!

Son of Man, ie - son of Adam, a human being.

 

[rocketman]

Please tell us Why Jesus will be ascending to his father, God???.....If he is God......

If he is God then who who was Jesus worshipping?

The irony of your argument is that you take the position that Jesus was merely human, yet that is the answer to your question! If God were to enter into the human race as a son of Adam, then that's precisely what he would be. Not only does your argument hold no water, it is profoundly self-defeating.

The Messiah, as a sacrificial contractural fullfilment, had to have been worth more than all of us put together, he had to be blameless so as not to earn the penalty for himself and thus nullify his equivalency, and he had to be born explicitely into Adams race. Could an angel have done it? No, they are not after Gods image (or type) and vice-versa. Could a seperate God, say a spirit offspring of God have done it? No. There is only one God according to OT and NT and Jesus himself.

If God were to enter into Adams race, into humanity, he would be BOUND BY THE RULES he gave humanity, including Duet 6:13 "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only"

UNDERSTAND that if he broke a single law he would be under the curse himself and no longer worth more than all of us put together. Imagine if when God walked in the garden of Eden and talked to Adam and Eve (Gen 3:8,9) that he wanted to give tham an idea of his infinite nature. Would he point to his physical body? No. He would speak of higher things. He would be in an upward looking mode. If God were on earth in a human body at any time in history, simultaneously finite here and infinite throughout the universe, then the finite expression naturally is subject to the infinite expression and not the other way around. When finite God is in the flesh, infinite God is his God. This is not a contradiction but rather a function of the differences in expression of God.

Being truly and fully human, Jesus suffered and was subject to all of the things we are subject to, including all of the emotions, including not wanting to die. He called himself 'Son of Adam(man)' over and over again. What, did the people think he was an alien ??? So the fact that he was a mere human being born into the human genetic line was a pretty important point as far as he was concerned.

John 8:23 Then he said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not."

John 8:25 "Tell us who you are," they demanded. Jesus replied, "I am the one I have always claimed to be." Which was of-course the Son of Man.

As for who he was before he became human...

Well, God does not share his glory with or give his name to anyone (Isaiah 42:8)

Yet Jesus claimed to share that glory before the creation of the world (John 17:5) and have that name even before Abraham was born (John 8:58)

 

[look3467]

If God created the world and not man, then only God can save the world and not man.
If God created the world and who knew He was God, but until He revealed Himself by His Son, then we know who He is by His Son.
Jesus is His name.
If you want to know God ask God in the name of Jesus, for He is your/our direct representative between the invisible God and a visible mankind, the bridge between heaven and earth by which only can mankind know God.
Technically, all the prophets prophesied lies, until their lies were fulfilled, and only then will they become truth.
Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Er, you can't be serious. "... and Thomas said TO HIM. " Yes he would have been excited, that doesn't change the fact that what was said was said TO Jesus, nor the fact that his disciples worshipped him after he ascended to heaven.

I see....So you truely believed that they "worshipped" him in the sense that He worshipped God...????

I have to ask the question that way because Jesus showed us over and over that he worshipped God and not himself. So far I have not found evidence where he taught the people he was God and was to be glorified.

 

[Popeyesays]

Jesus was not MERELY human. First off, humanity is the pinnacle of Creation higher even than the Djinn and Angels.

Second, The Apostles of God, the Manifestations of God are human, but also something else. They share a communion level with the Creator that mankind in general cannot experience.

All that being said, Jesus is not God. Jesus always maintained He was not God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You seem to have trouble reading. Jesus said Son of man not Son of God. And when the dude asked Jesus who the Son of Man was, Jesus said it was himself. Either way Jesus let the guy worship him despite being a supporter of the shema. He didn't worship Jesus earlier for being a healer or prophet or for giving him his sight back, no, he worshipped him because was the Son of Man. See one of my following posts for more on this.

So all it proves is that he showed him a sign of adoration for giving him his sight back.

Douay Rheims
9:38 And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him.

Let me see where else this was done.......

Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

They glorified God....(NOT JESUS)......Whom they also aknowledge GAVE power to Jesus.

 

[rocketman]

I see....So you truely believed that they "worshipped" him in the sense that He worshipped God...????

You tell me. Scripture says that they worshipped him after he went to heaven. If they were paying some kind of regular homage then why wasn't this done for all the prophets? And why did Peter pull Cornelius up before he could bow down to him, saying that he was 'just a man'? Those guys believed that worship was a pretty serious thing.

I have to ask the question that way because Jesus showed us over and over that he worshipped God and not himself. So far I have not found evidence where he taught the people he was God and was to be glorified.

I have shown you were Jesus claimed Gods glory and his name, and where it says that only God can do that. This thread is about what Jesus said about himself. He claimed all of the following: Son of Man, Messiah, Son of God, the way the truth and the life, the Glory of God as his own, and the Name of God as his own. He also made it very clear indeed that there is only ONE God. I have also shown you the simple logic behind Jesus respect towards the Father 'part' of himself.

Jesus taught Duet 6:13 which says to worhsip God. He also said in Luke that the people did not recognise the time of God's coming to them. Getting worship as the son was not the main mission. He could have done enough miracles to convince everyone and get them all to worship him, but as a son of Adam here on a special job that was not his main task.

 

[rocketman]

So all it proves is that he showed him a sign of adoration for giving him his sight back.

Maybe, but that is definitely not what I said.

They glorified God....(NOT JESUS)......Whom they also aknowledge GAVE power to Jesus.

Go and read it properly would you. Don't confuse "the crowd" with "some of the scribes". This is an important contextual point that is being conveniently overlooked (as usual). Right, the scribes knew that only God could forgive sins, so they knew that technically Jesus was commiting blasphemy (unless he was God). The regular crowd would have been thrilled that this guy had just healed a paralyzed man and made him get up and walk. That doesn't mean they realised what "some of the scribes' realised. And I imagine that any of the scribes objections would have been drowned out in the celebrations. The conflict between Jesus' words and the bible of the day remains, unless Jesus was some extension of God. They didn't say it was blasphemy for nothing.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The irony of your argument is that you take the position that Jesus was merely human, yet that is the answer to your question! If God were to enter into the human race as a son of Adam, then that's precisely what he would be. Not only does your argument hold no water, it is profoundly self-defeating.

Thank you for NOT answering the question. I never said Jesus was JUST a man. He was divine....Sure

But being divine does not automatically mean he was deity.

And there is no evidence that "God entered into the human race as the son of Adam" but the contrary.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

The There is only one God according to OT and NT and Jesus himself.

And yet Jesus himself disagrees with your assertion.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Go and read it properly would you. Don't confuse "the crowd" with "some of the scribes". This is an important contextual point that is being conveniently overlooked (as usual). Right, the scribes knew that only God could forgive sins, so they knew that technically Jesus was commiting blasphemy (unless he was God). The regular crowd would have been thrilled that this guy had just healed a paralyzed man and made him get up and walk. That doesn't mean they realised what "some of the scribes' realised. And I imagine that any of the scribes objections would have been drowned out in the celebrations. The conflict between Jesus' words and the bible of the day remains, unless Jesus was some extension of God. They didn't say it was blasphemy for nothing.

Done....

And it is still clear the way that I previously posted it.

Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

What sot of myster do you want to inject into this?

"This I will do so you will know that I have power on earth to forgive sins." Then Jesus said to the man "Get up from your sickness and affliction and go home".

The man got up and was sick no more and went home.

The people who saw what Jesus had done were amazed and gave paraise to God for the power he bestowed on Jesus.

Should I be looking deeper into these very simple statements as to what he did?

 

[!Fluffy!]

But being divine does not automatically mean he was deity.

Yes it does. This is a ridiculous and i'm sorry to have to say it but blatantly IGNORANT statement.

I see....So you truely believed that they "worshipped" him in the sense that He worshipped God...????

I have to ask the question that way because Jesus showed us over and over that he worshipped God and not himself. So far I have not found evidence where he taught the people he was God and was to be glorified.

A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF CANNOT STAND
The rabbinical Jews knew and taught that supernatural acts performed by humans were either by the power of God or of Satan. Jesus provided evidence of his divinity through his miracles. He healed the sick and raised the dead as testimony and proof of his divinity. By whose authority? was a question he was asked by religious authorities in public. What was his response?

Jesus Christ answered "yes" when asked if he were the Messiah, the Christ, and the Son of God. Jesus' enemies and his disciples agreed: Jesus claimed to be the only-begotten Son of God, he claimed divinity when asked outright by his enemies -- who then vowed they would stop at nothing to see him killed for his heresy. Jesus Christ claimed boldly that only He knew the Father. He claimed that if they destroyed this temple (his body) he would be raised again in 3 days. Was he lying?

I AM
Jesus openly forgave sins, knowing only God could forgive sins; He spoke boldly and openly as the Pharisees attested "with authority" saying such things as "Before Abraham was, I AM" -- knowing only God Almighty referred to himself as I AM. Not only that, after his death and resurrection he urged his followers to pick up their crosses and follow him, to proclaim the Gospel and testimony of his life, death resurrection and ascension, knowing fully the price they would pay. All the disciples were martyred in horrible ways, with one possible exception. Have you ever witnessed a stoning, a flaying, an upside down crucifixion... Was Jesus evil?

WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?
His disciples worshiped Him and proclaimed him to be the Son of God, and He did not rebuke them BUT encouraged and praised them for their open hearts. When Thomas realized by touching Jesus wounds that he was indeed risen he called Jesus "My Lord, and My God", he worshiped him, and as Jesus blessed Thomas he also made it clear that by the disciples first hand testimony those who had NOT seen with their eyes what they had seen would receive the Gospel and salvation. What did he mean to accomplish by accepting worship set aside for the Almighty and Sovereign God? Was he nuts? Did he really pull one over on the disciples, hiding away in the desert somewhere for 3 days? They were obviously shocked and disbelieving upon seeing him again after laying his dead body in a tomb. Was he a liar? Were they deceived?

RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT
He then breathed on the disciples and said receive the holy spirit - "the One who will come after" he had promised before his crucifixion. It is the Holy Spirit of God that makes salvation by faith possible, and was passed on from the disciples to contemporary followers of Christ. This is what the disciples want us to believe.

All of these things have been attested to in the New Testament and the applicable verses have been offered in this thread, they are not secret or hidden or difficult to comprehend. Read them. If the choice is made to believe Christ was not who HE CLAIMED to be, the Divine Son of God, that's perfectly understandable. But to believe he never claimed to be divine is unsustainable based on what is testified to by witnesses in the Bible.

Unless there is some extra-Biblical credible evidence to the contrary, no other conclusion beyond "JESUS CLAIMED to be divine" fits the New Testament accounts. If the testimony of the Bible is rejected, we really have no other witnesses or testimony to consider and the entire subject becomes nothing more than conjecture.