Did Jesus say obviously " I am a God" in Gospel?

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes it does. This is a ridiculous and i'm sorry to have to say it but blatantly IGNORANT statement.

You seem to be upset and very animated. I would appreciate that we refrain from the name calling. I was under the impression that this type of behavior was not the Christian way.

I will repeat myself. Divinity does not mean one MUST be God. Angels are divine but they certainly are not God or gods. They're God's divine instrument that do his will. Any power they possessed to do the things that they did as mentioned in the bible was granted by God.

Genesis 16:10
And the angel of God said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

Genesis 48:16
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


Judges 6:21
Then the angel of God put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of God departed out of his sight.

2Samuel 24:16
And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, God repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of God was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF CANNOT STAND
The rabbinical Jews knew and taught that supernatural acts performed by humans were either by the power of God or of Satan. Jesus provided evidence of his divinity through his miracles. He healed the sick and raised the dead as testimony and proof of his divinity. By whose authority? was a question he was asked by religious authorities in public. What was his response?

Jesus Christ answered "yes" when asked if he were the Messiah, the Christ, and the Son of God. Jesus' enemies and his disciples agreed: Jesus claimed to be the only-begotten Son of God, he claimed divinity when asked outright by his enemies -- who then vowed they would stop at nothing to see him killed for his heresy. Jesus Christ claimed boldly that only He knew the Father. He claimed that if they destroyed this temple (his body) he would be raised again in 3 days. Was he lying?

You've said so much here and most, not all of it, I don't disagree with. I never said Jesus wasn't divine but having divine attributes, which Jesus himself admintts was given to him by God, does not mean he is God.

I AM
Jesus openly forgave sins, knowing only God could forgive sins; He spoke boldly and openly as the Pharisees attested "with authority" saying such things as "Before Abraham was, I AM" -- knowing only God Almighty referred to himself as I AM. Not only that, after his death and resurrection he urged his followers to pick up their crosses and follow him, to proclaim the Gospel and testimony of his life, death resurrection and ascension, knowing fully the price they would pay. All the disciples were martyred in horrible ways, with one possible exception. Have you ever witnessed a stoning, a flaying, an upside down crucifixion... Was Jesus evil?

Any thing Jesus was able to do was given to him by God.

WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?
His disciples worshiped Him and proclaimed him to be the Son of God, and He did not rebuke them BUT encouraged and praised them for their open hearts. When Thomas realized by touching Jesus wounds that he was indeed risen he called Jesus "My Lord, and My God", he worshiped him, and as Jesus blessed Thomas he also made it clear that by the disciples first hand testimony those who had NOT seen with their eyes what they had seen would receive the Gospel and salvation. What did he mean to accomplish by accepting worship set aside for the Almighty and Sovereign God? Was he nuts? Did he really pull one over on the disciples, hiding away in the desert somewhere for 3 days? They were obviously shocked and disbelieving upon seeing him again after laying his dead body in a tomb. Was he a liar? Were they deceived?

After all that they had went through they were pleased and excited to have him in their presence again. He didn't have to correct Thomas for the respect thomas showed. Jesus never claimed to be God. If he is God then who was he praying to throughout the 4 gospels.

But to believe he never claimed to be divine is unsustainable based on what is testified to by witnesses in the Bible.

Divine attributes he did have, but God he wasn't.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Unless there is some extra-Biblical credible evidence to the contrary, no other conclusion beyond "JESUS CLAIMED to be divine" fits the New Testament accounts. If the testimony of the Bible is rejected, we really have no other witnesses or testimony to consider and the entire subject becomes nothing more than conjecture.

Him claiming to be divine is not in question. People asserting he is God is.

John
7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You have just demonstrated that you do not understand the culture and context of the day.
As !fluffy! has said, this is a ridiculous and blatently ignorant statement.

You both keep saying this when others don't agree with you.

So if God (Gen Ch 3)can walk in the garden of Eden and talk to Adam and Eve what's so shocking about him showing up born of a woman?

Luke 3:21
And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

 

[lilithu]

Hi luna, namaste.

To those invested in trying prove that Jesus was not God...why? If Jesus, the Christ, was not God there's not a whole lot of point to Christianity or the NT, besides a few inspiring sayings.

I am willing to agree to disagree, and wasn't particularly interested in this argument until someone suggested that it was "ignorant" to believe that Jesus was not God. That's when I got "invested" in the argument.

I don't believe that Jesus was God.

Why?

1. As has been pointed out, Jesus prayed to God. His entire ministry was focused away from himself towards God. It does not make any sense that God would come to us as God and teach us to pray to God, third person, and not to himself, first person, if he truly were God.

2. If Jesus was God incarnate, then his death is not as meaningful. An omnipotent being comes down, knowing full well that he'll live again, and offers himself up to die. There is no real sacrifice. It makes the entire passion story moot.

3. If Jesus was God incarnate, sent as a human sacrifice, as if this is the only way to appease God's wrath, then God is a bloodthirsty vengeful deity that I want nothing to do with.

4. If Jesus was God then what chance do we have to ever emulate him? It's only because he was a human that he was approachable.

5. If Jesus was God incarnate and then ascended into heaven, then what relationship do we have with him? He is as far removed from us now as the Father. All we have is a record of what he said.

6. If Jesus was God, he would have said so.


But then what is the point of Christianity if I don't believe that Jesus was God?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Jesus was a human, completely and utterly devoted to God. He knew that God was on the side of justice and that the Roman occupation and the priestly caste of Israel were instruments of injustice. For his entire ministry, he taught people to turn away from the acquisition of material goods, to turn away from corrupt authority, and to love God, and to love those who are outcast. (To include them into the circle of God's love, which they always were but society didn't recognize it.) God saw this and was pleased and claimed him as God's son because of his works: "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased."

Let's say that Jesus knew that his teachings would run him afoul of the authorities, that it would likely end in his crucifixion, and that for a time he was sorely tempted out of fear to stop preaching and make a run for it. "Lord, take this cup from me." He was a human being, afraid, not knowing what the future would bring except that it looked grim for him if he continued... and yet he continued anyway, because he knew it was right, because he knew it was God's will to oppose injustice. I do believe that he died for his love of God, he died for justice, he died for us, even tho he was afraid. This to me is the greatest, most heart-breaking, most inspiring story every told. It simply would not have the same meaning if Jesus knew he was God and knew everything that was going to happen.

Let's say that Jesus was crucified, that he was tortured and killed, that he felt all the pain that a human would feel and died. Truly died. And God... was so incensed with this injustice that God personally intervened; God raised him from the dead, not to be the man that he once was but to be the living Christ. To be the Divine who is with us. Living in the hearts of those who follow Jesus' example, so that they can feel Christ's presence and have no fear. And so that we can be like Jesus, every one of us.

To me, this is a far better point to Christianity than "Jesus was God incarnate sent by God as a human sacrifice to wash you clean of your sins and appease an angry God, but only if you believe."

 

[lunamoth]

Hi lilithu, namaste. I will return to your highly interesting post later when I have more time (right now I'm making enchiladas), but a quick point about:

To me, this is a far better point to Christianity than "Jesus was God incarnate sent by God as a human sacrifice to wash you clean of your sins and appease an angry God, but only if you believe."

Yeah, that leaves me flat as well. I don't buy it. (added: well, as I will discuss later I do 'trust' that Jesus was God incarnate, but not the rest of that.)

 

[rocketman]

Isaiah in the original Hebrew says nothing about a 'virgin' at all, you know.

They didn't have a set word for virigin, you know. Both almah and bethulah had a degree of interchangeability.

The original word there in Is 7:14 is almah, which some say meant young woman. It means unmarried girl who has reached puberty actually. The context of the passage is that a there would be a sign given. The words "the almah will be with child" do not show the name of the female. The fact that she "will conceive" seems to be of more significance. If the son was born in that generation why did we not hear more about this great Immanuel whom God foretold?

As I said almah means unmarried, which is just as important to the tie-in with the NT as the 'virgin' thing. See Matt 1:18

Forgive the cut+paste but I thought this was interesting:

" From the earliest days of Christianity, Jewish critics have argued that Christians were mistaken in their reading of almah in Isaiah 7:14. Because the author of Matthew 1:23, believed that Jesus was born of a virgin, he quoted Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son" as a proof-text for the divine origin of Jesus. Jewish scholars declare that Matthew is in error, that the word almah means young woman (just as the male equivalent elem means young man). It does not denote a virgin or sexual purity but age. Because a different Hebrew word, bethulah, is most commonly used for virgin even in modern Hebrew, the prophet could not have meant virgin in Isaiah 7:14.

Many Christian apologists respond that throughout the Old Testament, in every other instance where a girl is described as almah, she is a girl who has never known a man carnally or had intercourse. Moreover, the word bethulah is sometimes used to describe women who are arguably not virgins (Joel 1.8 and Esther 2:8-17), and in at least two cases (Genesis 24: 16 and Judges 21: 12), an additional phrase in the text explains that that the bethulah has "not known a man." Thus, they argue, almah refers to virgins more consistently than does bethulah. Most importantly, the Jewish scholars who translated and compiled the Hebrew scriptures (the Torah first and then later the Prophets and the Writings) into a Greek version of the Old Testament, translated almah in Isaiah 7:14 as parthenos, which almost always means "virgin". Since these Jewish scholars were well acquainted with the meaning of the old Hebrew words as well as the Greek, their interpretation (developed hundreds of years before Jesus) should be given special weight.

Some scholars contend that debates over the precise meaning of bethulah and almah are misguided because no Hebrew word encapsulates the idea of certain virginity. Martin Luther also argued that the debate was irrelevant, not because the words do not clearly mean virgin, but because almah and bethulah were functional synonyms. "

- Almah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rocketman]

lol, you post bible verses as if they are historical fact.

You're the one who made a sweeping claim about what was believed back then. The NT is sometimes all we have on some of these matters. Where are your references to support your claim?

So your real argument after all is that the scriptures are unreliable so no matter what the record shows Jesus said, you would still reject it outright, yes?

And even then there was not the solidified belief that Jesus was God incarnate. That didn't become "fact" until the Council of Nicea in the fourth century.

Sure, so verses from 300 years earlier like Col 2:9 were just there for the fun of it: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form..."

To go back to the OP, Jesus never outright says, "I am God" in any of these texts.

Compare Ex3:14 with Isaiah 42:8 then John 8:58

 

[rocketman]

The point of Jesus' announcement was to fulfill the promise of the Messiah. he did that. He did not have to be "GOD" incarnate to do that, after all Moses was not God incarnate.

Moses didn't have to be a sacrifice equal to the rest of us put together.

Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Luke 24:25-27 "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory? And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself."

 

[rocketman]

You both keep saying this when others don't agree with you.

I only said it once to you. I don't think you understand why I said it, which proves the point. I did not mean it to be in any way disrespectful or judgemental of your personal opinion.

[edit; I'm talking about the use of the word ignorant, not the context thing]

Luke 3:21
And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Is the Father God? Is the Holy Spirit God? If God walked in the garden of Eden why can't this be God too being baptised as a human being born into Adam's line?

This thread is about what Jesus said about himself. What do you think of the things that I showed you he said about himself?

 

[rocketman]

2. If Jesus was God incarnate, then his death is not as meaningful. An omnipotent being comes down, knowing full well that he'll live again, and offers himself up to die. There is no real sacrifice. It makes the entire passion story moot.

The Supreme Being comes down to our level and shares exactly what we have including a scary violent human death and that is a moot point? Would you go through it if you knew you would be raised from the dead? Yes, if you wanted to save somebody that you really really loved with your heart.

3. If Jesus was God incarnate, sent as a human sacrifice, as if this is the only way to appease God's wrath, then God is a bloodthirsty vengeful deity that I want nothing to do with.

If he personally layed down his life for you why is that diferent from a soldier or policeman doing the same to protect you?

If Jesus was God, he would have said so.

John 8:58

To me, this is a far better point to Christianity than "Jesus was God incarnate sent by God as a human sacrifice to wash you clean of your sins and appease an angry God, but only if you believe."

It's not about anger. It's a contract. The penalty was specified in Genesis. God annulled our requirement to recieve the penalty, but it's up to us to accept that we have been released. God is very particular about sticking to the letter of these things.

For those sincere folk who have trouble believing that Jesus death and return has released them from that contract I'm sure that God will help them with the necessary evidence either in this life or the next (imo). He did it for Thomas after all.

 

[blackout]

But then what is the point of Christianity if I don't believe that Jesus was God?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Jesus was a human, completely and utterly devoted to God. He knew that God was on the side of justice and that the Roman occupation and the priestly caste of Israel were instruments of injustice. For his entire ministry, he taught people to turn away from the acquisition of material goods, to turn away from corrupt authority, and to love God, and to love those who are outcast. (To include them into the circle of God's love, which they always were but society didn't recognize it.) God saw this and was pleased and claimed him as God's son because of his works: "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased."

Let's say that Jesus knew that his teachings would run him afoul of the authorities, that it would likely end in his crucifixion, and that for a time he was sorely tempted out of fear to stop preaching and make a run for it. "Lord, take this cup from me." He was a human being, afraid, not knowing what the future would bring except that it looked grim for him if he continued... and yet he continued anyway, because he knew it was right, because he knew it was God's will to oppose injustice. I do believe that he died for his love of God, he died for justice, he died for us, even tho he was afraid. This to me is the greatest, most heart-breaking, most inspiring story every told. It simply would not have the same meaning if Jesus knew he was God and knew everything that was going to happen.

Let's say that Jesus was crucified, that he was tortured and killed, that he felt all the pain that a human would feel and died. Truly died. And God... was so incensed with this injustice that God personally intervened; God raised him from the dead, not to be the man that he once was but to be the living Christ. To be the Divine who is with us. Living in the hearts of those who follow Jesus' example, so that they can feel Christ's presence and have no fear. And so that we can be like Jesus, every one of us.

To me, this is a far better point to Christianity than "Jesus was God incarnate sent by God as a human sacrifice to wash you clean of your sins and appease an angry God, but only if you believe."

And so that we can be like Jesus, every one of us.
Exactly. FAR FAR better. Thank you lilithu.

When the gospels are read OUTSIDE of the "interpretations"
taught by the churches/seminarys/mainstream....
there are AMAZING new meanings easily found there.

They illuminate a far more, personally engaging story.

I WONDER, if people simply READ the gospels,
without ever having undergone church indoctrination...
I wonder what it is they would find there in the reading...........

 

[love]

Matt 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matt12:39
But He and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For Jonas was three nights in the whales belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ made it very clear who He was, but there were those who saw His miracles and did not believe. How can we expect it to be any different two thousand years later?
Don't sweat it brothers and sisters in the Lord. I know you want desperately for all to see, but only God can lift the veil. It seems some are just having a little fun at your expense. They apparently do not understand that you can not be swayed. We know Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
1John5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bear witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[lilithu]

You're the one who made a sweeping claim about what was believed back then. The NT is sometimes all we have on some of these matters.

Um, no. We have history, anthropology, third-party records, the religion of Judaism, non-canonical books, carbon-dating, textual analysis, logic...

As for references, there are a ton of books on this, but the writings by Marcus Borg are a good place to start. I also found the book, "When Jesus Became God" to be very informative regarding the Council of Nicea and the argument over Jesus' nature.

So your real argument after all is that the scriptures are unreliable so no matter what the record shows Jesus said, you would still reject it outright, yes?

My real argument is that scripture is not just a record of historical fact. It's based on factual events, but filtered through the lens of faith. And THAT to me is far more powerful than just a record of events.

But I would never try to use any specific verses as objective evidence. If you can demonstrate a pattern, the argument becomes more convincing, but still not conclusive.

Sure, so verses from 300 years earlier like Col 2:9 were just there for the fun of it: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form..."

What was written reflected what the followers of Christ sincerely believed to be the case, as filtered through their own experiences.

Compare Ex3:14 with Isaiah 42:8 then John 8:58

Bottom line, he never said it.

 

[blackout]

but there were those who saw His miracles and did not believe.

I believe! I believe.
And Y'shua himself said we could do more.
I believe that too!

 

[lilithu]

The Supreme Being comes down to our level and shares exactly what we have including a scary violent human death and that is a moot point? Would you go through it if you knew you would be raised from the dead? Yes, if you wanted to save somebody that you really really loved with your heart.

Yes, I would. That's my point. If I knew I were coming back, I would do it. No big deal. Now, would I do it if I believed that I would not be raised, that I would die and that's it? No, almost certainly not.

If he personally layed down his life for you why is that diferent from a soldier or policeman doing the same to protect you?

I'm sorry, I thought we were working under the assumption that Jesus is more than just a soldier or a policeman?

And why should we need protecting? Because you believe that God demands a blood sacrifice or else he'll burn the rest of us in hell?

John 8:58

Four different gospels, more if you count the non-canonical ones, and all you can do is to keep repeating this one verse, which doesn't even say, "I am God."

It's not about anger. It's a contract. The penalty was specified in Genesis.

How so? Where in Genesis does it say "You are damned to hell for all eternity."? Where does it say, "The only way you can get out of this is if my Son who is also God agrees to come down and die for you."?

 

[blackout]

The Supreme Being comes down to our level and shares exactly what we have including a scary violent human death and that is a moot point? Would you go through it if you knew you would be raised from the dead? Yes, if you wanted to save somebody that you really really loved with your heart.

If he personally layed down his life for you why is that diferent from a soldier or policeman doing the same to protect you?

John 8:58

It's not about anger. It's a contract. The penalty was specified in Genesis. God annulled our requirement to recieve the penalty, but it's up to us to accept that we have been released. God is very particular about sticking to the letter of these things.

For those sincere folk who have trouble believing that Jesus death and return has released them from that contract I'm sure that God will help them with the necessary evidence either in this life or the next (imo). He did it for Thomas after all.

Jesus got BASHED UPSIDE THE HEAD for COMING AGAINST THE WORLD.
The CHURCHES, the power structures. That was WHY he suffered the brutality he did. It was part of the package deal. You lay the world low, and EXPOSE THE LIES, publically and openly, DO WHAT THE WORLD SAYS YOU CAN'T, threaten to bring down power structures........... and get back. There WILL be repricussions. The brutality rather stands as the final testiment to the story as well, regarding the nature of the world's institutions. What kind of a threat do you think the supernatural feats openly manifest at Y'shua's hands, caused both the religious and the world structures of power and control of the "little people".

He did not come to "protect" us like the "well meaning" soldier or police officer.
He came to SHOW US THE WAY OUT OF THE WORLD SLAVERY CONSTRUCT.

The insuing sacrifice,
was not some "religious" altar sacrifice thing,
but a REAL personal sacrifice....
accepted as a repricussion for showing us the Truth.
(and with no regard or respect for the world hierarchy)

 

[rocketman]

Um, no. We have history, anthropology, third-party records, the religion of Judaism, non-canonical books, carbon-dating, textual analysis, logic...

Their religion, right - I showed a few verses from that too. Are their scriptures filtered as well? We just don't know every interpretation that they had back then.

As for references, there are a ton of books on this, but the writings by Marcus Borg are a good place to start. I also found the book, "When Jesus Became God" to be very informative regarding the Council of Nicea and the argument over Jesus' nature.

Doesn't change the fact that Col 2:9 was there 300 years earlier than Nicea.

My real argument is that scripture is not just a record of historical fact. It's based on factual events, but filtered through the lens of faith. And THAT to me is far more powerful than just a record of events.

Fair enough. Now we know what your argument really is.

 

[rocketman]

Yes, I would. That's my point. If I knew I were coming back, I would do it. No big deal. Now, would I do it if I believed that I would not be raised, that I would die and that's it? No, almost certainly not.

Whether it was hard or easy for him is really a side issue to the need for it to have been carried out at all.

I'm sorry, I thought we were working under the assumption that Jesus is more than just a soldier or a policeman?

It was a metaphor for crying out loud. I was refering to the fact that sometimes people die to save us.

Four different gospels, more if you count the non-canonical ones, and all you can do is to keep repeating this one verse, which doesn't even say, "I am God."

Putting 'God' on the end of it is superfluous! YHWH is I AM. For a Jew to self-identify this way is outrageous, even for a prophet. I thought you understood the context but now I see that you do not. I've shown many verses other than this, but still you don't seem to understand the context of the shema.

How so? Where in Genesis does it say "You are damned to hell for all eternity."? Where does it say, "The only way you can get out of this is if my Son who is also God agrees to come down and die for you."?

I don't personally believe that we are damned for all eternity, just denied eternity if we sin (Gen 3:22-24). Jesus was the only prophet who claimed to be the way back to eternity. The penalty for sin was death, which as bizzare as it first sounds was quite wise. Any good parent would have made this rule, because once eternity is given, it can't be revoked (or it wouldn't be eternity) so it's not given until we sort out our attitudes. To be locked in for eternity with sin and suffering would not be a good thing. The stakes couldn't be higher, hence the whole history/bible/allowing suffering drama.

The contract was expounded upon as history unfolded (seems we didn't get a choice of the terms, but we are the kids not the parent after all). By the time of Abraham, God had revealed more of what was going on, often adding to the 'covenant'. This old agreement used a system of sin offerings to excuse other punishments for day by day sins, but nothing offered could annul the overall penalty of death, which required the person themself. No one could be substituted for another either because everyone sinned and had their own price to pay. If God raised anyone from the dead under this agreement they would only sin again and incur the penalty again.

God said later that he would make a new contract in Jer 31:31-34. This time there would be provision for the total forgiveness and forgetting of sins. But first people had to be excused from the old agreement, which required a sin-offering in place of each person. Jesus became the way out of the old agreement. Jesus was the final sacrifice, the Lamb of God, the Messiah.

Luke 22:20 "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you..."

Accepting what was done in our place and admitting that we can't keep up our end of the old contract is central to allowing ourself to be released from the old obligations. The old was superseded by the new so that anyone could be saved and live forever. This is basic christian theology. It all seems excessively complicated at first, but it all comes back to Genesis and the penalty of death for sin and being barred from eternity.

So the offering had to be worth more than all of us put together, and had to be blameless, and had to be a human son of man just as we are. Who could that be I wonder?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Hi luna, namaste.

I am willing to agree to disagree, and wasn't particularly interested in this argument until someone suggested that it was "ignorant" to believe that Jesus was not God. That's when I got "invested" in the argument.

I don't believe that Jesus was God.

Why?

1. As has been pointed out, Jesus prayed to God. His entire ministry was focused away from himself towards God. It does not make any sense that God would come to us as God and teach us to pray to God, third person, and not to himself, first person, if he truly were God.

2. If Jesus was God incarnate, then his death is not as meaningful. An omnipotent being comes down, knowing full well that he'll live again, and offers himself up to die. There is no real sacrifice. It makes the entire passion story moot.

3. If Jesus was God incarnate, sent as a human sacrifice, as if this is the only way to appease God's wrath, then God is a bloodthirsty vengeful deity that I want nothing to do with.

4. If Jesus was God then what chance do we have to ever emulate him? It's only because he was a human that he was approachable.

5. If Jesus was God incarnate and then ascended into heaven, then what relationship do we have with him? He is as far removed from us now as the Father. All we have is a record of what he said.

6. If Jesus was God, he would have said so.


But then what is the point of Christianity if I don't believe that Jesus was God?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Jesus was a human, completely and utterly devoted to God. He knew that God was on the side of justice and that the Roman occupation and the priestly caste of Israel were instruments of injustice. For his entire ministry, he taught people to turn away from the acquisition of material goods, to turn away from corrupt authority, and to love God, and to love those who are outcast. (To include them into the circle of God's love, which they always were but society didn't recognize it.) God saw this and was pleased and claimed him as God's son because of his works: "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased."

Let's say that Jesus knew that his teachings would run him afoul of the authorities, that it would likely end in his crucifixion, and that for a time he was sorely tempted out of fear to stop preaching and make a run for it. "Lord, take this cup from me." He was a human being, afraid, not knowing what the future would bring except that it looked grim for him if he continued... and yet he continued anyway, because he knew it was right, because he knew it was God's will to oppose injustice. I do believe that he died for his love of God, he died for justice, he died for us, even tho he was afraid. This to me is the greatest, most heart-breaking, most inspiring story every told. It simply would not have the same meaning if Jesus knew he was God and knew everything that was going to happen.

Let's say that Jesus was crucified, that he was tortured and killed, that he felt all the pain that a human would feel and died. Truly died. And God... was so incensed with this injustice that God personally intervened; God raised him from the dead, not to be the man that he once was but to be the living Christ. To be the Divine who is with us. Living in the hearts of those who follow Jesus' example, so that they can feel Christ's presence and have no fear. And so that we can be like Jesus, every one of us.

To me, this is a far better point to Christianity than "Jesus was God incarnate sent by God as a human sacrifice to wash you clean of your sins and appease an angry God, but only if you believe."

I agree....How do I give frubals.....

 

[rocketman]

I agree....How do I give frubals.....

Click on the little picture of the scales in the top right of the post you want to frubal.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi luna, namaste.

I am willing to agree to disagree, and wasn't particularly interested in this argument until someone suggested that it was "ignorant" to believe that Jesus was not God. That's when I got "invested" in the argument.

We most likely will end up agreeing to disagree, and I do not share the sentiment that it is 'ignorant' to believe that Jesus was not God. So, my comment was not really directed to you. And, you gave a very nice answer to my question. Thank you!

I don't believe that Jesus was God.

Why?

1. As has been pointed out, Jesus prayed to God. His entire ministry was focused away from himself towards God. It does not make any sense that God would come to us as God and teach us to pray to God, third person, and not to himself, first person, if he truly were God.

2. If Jesus was God incarnate, then his death is not as meaningful. An omnipotent being comes down, knowing full well that he'll live again, and offers himself up to die. There is no real sacrifice. It makes the entire passion story moot.

3. If Jesus was God incarnate, sent as a human sacrifice, as if this is the only way to appease God's wrath, then God is a bloodthirsty vengeful deity that I want nothing to do with.

4. If Jesus was God then what chance do we have to ever emulate him? It's only because he was a human that he was approachable.

5. If Jesus was God incarnate and then ascended into heaven, then what relationship do we have with him? He is as far removed from us now as the Father. All we have is a record of what he said.

6. If Jesus was God, he would have said so.

I don't think Jesus on earth knew he was God, but as NT Wright puts it, he knew his vocation. By faith, as part of his human vocation, he believed his calling was to fulfill those things that God was expected to fulfill. The incarnation means that he was fully human, and fully God. It does not mean that while on earth he was omnipotent, omniscient, etc..

...It was more like the kind of "knowledge" we associate with vocation, where people know, in the very depths of their being, that they are called to be an artist, a mechanic, a philosopher. For Jesus, this seems to have beeen a deep knowledge of that kind, a powerful and all-consuming belief that Israel's God was more mysterious than most people had supposed; that within the very being of this God there was a give-and0take, at to-and-fro, a love given and received. Jesus seems to have believed that he, the fully human prophet from Nazareth, was one of those partners in love. He was called, in obedience to the Father, to follow through the project to which that love would give itself freely and fully.

So, Jesus was faithful and obedient in much the same way as Abraham, yet unlike Abraham his role was to fulfill what was expected of God.

But then what is the point of Christianity if I don't believe that Jesus was God?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Jesus was a human, completely and utterly devoted to God. He knew that God was on the side of justice and that the Roman occupation and the priestly caste of Israel were instruments of injustice. For his entire ministry, he taught people to turn away from the acquisition of material goods, to turn away from corrupt authority, and to love God, and to love those who are outcast. (To include them into the circle of God's love, which they always were but society didn't recognize it.) God saw this and was pleased and claimed him as God's son because of his works: "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased."

He also called people to repent, and taught that the Kingdom of God is near. It's as you say, and more I think.

Let's say that Jesus knew that his teachings would run him afoul of the authorities, that it would likely end in his crucifixion, and that for a time he was sorely tempted out of fear to stop preaching and make a run for it. "Lord, take this cup from me." He was a human being, afraid, not knowing what the future would bring except that it looked grim for him if he continued... and yet he continued anyway, because he knew it was right, because he knew it was God's will to oppose injustice. I do believe that he died for his love of God, he died for justice, he died for us, even tho he was afraid. This to me is the greatest, most heart-breaking, most inspiring story every told. It simply would not have the same meaning if Jesus knew he was God and knew everything that was going to happen.

I believe all of that too, lilithu, but I don't think it precludes Jesus being God. That is what I find most inspiring about the Incarnation too, that God would be with us and share fully in our suffering, and your'e right if Jesus was just God that would not be very relevant to us.

Let's say that Jesus was crucified, that he was tortured and killed, that he felt all the pain that a human would feel and died. Truly died. And God... was so incensed with this injustice that God personally intervened; God raised him from the dead, not to be the man that he once was but to be the living Christ. To be the Divine who is with us. Living in the hearts of those who follow Jesus' example, so that they can feel Christ's presence and have no fear. And so that we can be like Jesus, every one of us.

I don't think it went down that way exactly. Yes, he was tortured and crucified and really died. Significantly, he offers the perfect example of non-resistance to evil in this. And through this perfect self-sacrifice in love, the power of evil is exhausted. The veil is torn and whatever it is that we thought was between us and God was removed.

To me, this is a far better point to Christianity than "Jesus was God incarnate sent by God as a human sacrifice to wash you clean of your sins and appease an angry God, but only if you believe."

I can't deny that, especially in Paul, the language of sacrifice for sin is used, but to me this has never meant a quid pro quo kind of payment or appeasing an angry god. Like you, I find such a god to be monstrous, unjust, uncompassionate. I think the key to the atonement is in the Incarnation itself. The hideous death suffered by Jesus, the world (us) saying "no" to God's son, was transformed to victory when God said emphatically, "Yes!" with the resurrection. Love conquers evil; love conquers death. Not only for Jesus, but for us as well.

Thank you, luna