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Did Judas do God's will?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The same scholars who claim the FLOOD never happened, that MARY was not a virgin, and that CHRIST never rose from the dead?
So what. I believe that if the scholar is not Christian, his learned opinion is no better than the school of thought he decided to embrace. There are some very learned men who happen to be Christian who simply see the "Gospel" of Thomas for what it really is ----- another book of mormon (just a lot older).

I've been a Christian without the book. I do not need to be "enlightened" by some mystic.
I think your assessment of the scholarship is rather perfunctory and simplistic. One can disagree with the faith of the scholar -- that has little bearing on the research done. But to say that they're "just wrong" because they happen to "disagree" with a surface interpretation of scripture is unfair, because they don't seek a theological truth, but a literary truth. You seem to confuse the two.

We all make decisions about what to believe or not. We all make decisions as to the hermeneutic that works for us. One doesn't have to be a Christian for the scholarship to work, because exegetical scholarship does not depend on a particular theological basis.

Have you ever read Thomas? Apparently you don't understand that the reason it's not in the canon is because the canon was closed before it was discovered.

One does not need a book in order to be a Christian. Christianity survived and flourished quite nicely without a "new testament." But Thomas, whether canon scripture or not does have value for us because it adds to the hermeneutical milieu out of which we work.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You are as blind as Pharaoh, Herod,and Caiaphas.

Who was present when Isaac was almost sacraficed? I didn't realize that Abraham pierced his hands and feet and starved him? And to have all the servants laugh at Isaac and part his clothes. Doesn't sound like you know a thing about Abraham, let alone the Old Testament...
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here. In what way am I "blind as Pharaoh, Herod and Caiaphas?"

It doesn't sound to you like I know a thing about Abraham, let alone the OT, but I can assure you that my semianry professors' assessments were quite different on that issue.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Jesus had to die, did you not notice that after that there was no more sacrifices of animals if you sinned thats becasue Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. His perfect life was the ransom for the one Adam lost

Its all so that we humans can have the earthly promise we were intended to have, that of a paradise on earth as perfect humans who dont die, get sick or have any problems such as blindness and deafness and the like.
 

Danizar

New member
We all sin, so why should Judas be judged more harshly than any other person? How many Christians actually do all that Jesus said to do in the Bible? How many actually "take up their crosses and follow him", give all their money to the poor, etc.? God can forgive any sin, right?
 

lockyfan

Active Member
We all sin, so why should Judas be judged more harshly than any other person? How many Christians actually do all that Jesus said to do in the Bible? How many actually "take up their crosses and follow him", give all their money to the poor, etc.? God can forgive any sin, right?


Yes he can forgive any sin, but it lies in what Judas was

he was an Apostle. he was to be one of hte kings and Priests under Christ after satans system was destroyed. He had a different hope than the rest of us.

The rest of us have a different hope that what Judas Iscariot had. We have hte hope of life everlasting on a paradise earth, he had a life of rulership underneath christ.

Iscariot then did the unthinkable, he sold out Jesus for money. He was known for his love of money actually

so as the scriptures say at 1Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains

Also the will of God is the following

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 1 timothy 2:3-5

2 Peter 3:9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance

Judas Iscariot however, shot himself in the foot

Jesus pronounced the judgement upon Iscariot when he told the Apostles that one of them was to betray him and he then said "True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born." Matthew 26:24

So as you see 1 Gods will is that all attain to repentance.
2. Did Judas Iscariot do this? No he didnt. He was told before he physically betrayed Christ what was to happen and he still did it. For his love of money
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

rheff,
Pretty perspicacious thinking!! You have much more ability at ratiocination than most.
You will get much disagreement on this subject, but let us ratiocinate and see if we can come up with a reasonable answer.
We are told that Jesus Pernoctated on the night before he picked the apostles. Jesus did not know that Judas would betray him, at that time, but Jesus soon realized who the one would be, because of his actions, John 6:64, 13:11, but God must have. Without Jesus being betrayed and providing the Ransom for us no one could benefit from all the promises that God had prophesied. It had already been prophesied that someone would betray Jesus, and what is prophesied MUST come true, Ps 41:9. This was too great a happening to leave it to chance!!
Judas definitely was not doing God's will. God looked into the future and knew that Judas would betray Jesus, but God did not cause him to act against Jesus. Just as a weatherman knows it is going to rain, but he does no make it rain, neither did God cause Judas to betray Jesus.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

Judas did not do God's will
But he did do what God expected.
From Gods perspective of the whole of man's history
From the beginning to the end of time, he could remember/see what Judas Did/was to do.
However remembering/seeing is not the same as preordaining.
 

Thesavorofpan

Is not going to save you.
This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

Well you have to look at this at the last supper Jesus said whoever eat this bread that I dip is going to betray me and it happen to be Judas who took the bread. It could have been any other discipile that could have taken the bread, but one had to betray him, it just that Judas made the wrong choice.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Well you have to look at this at the last supper Jesus said whoever eat this bread that I dip is going to betray me and it happen to be Judas who took the bread. It could have been any other discipile that could have taken the bread, but one had to betray him, it just that Judas made the wrong choice.


Exactly. he let his love of money get in the way of his love for Jehovah
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Exactly. he let his love of money get in the way of his love for Jehovah
I think you're dead wrong. I don't think greed had anything to do with it. I think fear was in play here. An insidious fear of what might happen if the Authorities found out.Therefore, he ingratiated himself to the enemies. He sold out, not to money, but to fear.

Fear is not of God. The sin lay -- not in "disobedience," but in turning away from God and embracing fear.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
ok so turning away from God is not disobedience then? He ws being obedeint to God by turning his back on him?

That makes no sense.

I think in that logic if you turned your back on your parents you are not being disobedient even though you know it to be wrong to turn from them?

HE knew who Jesus was, he knew who Jehovah was, he was going to be a king a preist in the new system (after armageddon) and he threw it all away for 30 pieces of silver.

I am sorry I dont see your logic there.

Judas had a love for money he is even refered to in the bible as a theif when it comes to money. (John 12:6) He obviously had a problem with a love of money if he was stealing it.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus had to die, did you not notice that after that there was no more sacrifices of animals if you sinned thats becasue Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. His perfect life was the ransom for the one Adam lost

Its all so that we humans can have the earthly promise we were intended to have, that of a paradise on earth as perfect humans who dont die, get sick or have any problems such as blindness and deafness and the like.
There were no more sacrifices of animals, largely because, shortly after the crucifixion, the Temple (where sacrifices took place) was razed by Rome.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
he was to be one of hte kings and Priests under Christ after satans system was destroyed.
You're holding "clergy" to a higher standard. That's not right.
He had a different hope than the rest of us.
There is one hope in Christ Jesus.
We have hte hope of life everlasting on a paradise earth, he had a life of rulership underneath christ.
It has never been understood that the apostles were to be "higher on the food chain" in such a way.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
ok so turning away from God is not disobedience then? He ws being obedeint to God by turning his back on him?

That makes no sense.

I think in that logic if you turned your back on your parents you are not being disobedient even though you know it to be wrong to turn from them?

HE knew who Jesus was, he knew who Jehovah was, he was going to be a king a preist in the new system (after armageddon) and he threw it all away for 30 pieces of silver.

I am sorry I dont see your logic there.

Judas had a love for money he is even refered to in the bible as a theif when it comes to money. (John 12:6) He obviously had a problem with a love of money if he was stealing it.
Not in this case. It was fear that led him to disobey. And it was that fear that was the sin. The disobedience was further sin. Had he turned from his fear, he wouldn't have sinned further. His weakness for money might have been a contributing factor, but I don't believe it was the impetus for his act.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
What fear led him to disobey?

show me the scripture where you get this idea from please

It was prophesied that JEsus would be betrayed by one of his diciples, but it does not mention a name. It just says that he was.

At one stage Judas was a truly righteous man, he was chosen as an Apostle. For what his heart was not what it became.
 

McBell

Unbound
Without Judas, the crucifixion would NOT take place.
\
This is merely speculation on your part.
As was already mentioned in this thread, Jesus was doing a fine job at ticking off the powers that be.

Even if Judas did not betray Jesus, it was still a matter of time before he was arrested anyway.

And yes, that is also merely speculation.

If you go by the Gospel of Judas then the plan was for Judas to turn Jesus over to the pharisees for the final act to be carried out.
it was an agreement between the two and Judas was not happy about it, but carried it out regardless.
The "Plan"?
Do you mean the plan between Judas and the pharisees?
What does that plan have to do with whether or not Judas was fulfilling God's will?

If you mean some other plan, please let me know which other plan you sp[eak of.

In my opinion, each of us -- including Judas -- has free will. I don't believe for a minute that he was doing God's will, but that God knew that he was the kind of person who would be willing to sell out on the Savior. Judas could have been born at any time or place. The fact that he was born in the Holy Land and met up with Jesus Christ was, in my opinion, neither a mere coincidence nor was it in violation of Judas's free will.
I agree.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
katzpur said:
In my opinion, each of us -- including Judas -- has free will. I don't believe for a minute that he was doing God's will, but that God knew that he was the kind of person who would be willing to sell out on the Savior. Judas could have been born at any time or place. The fact that he was born in the Holy Land and met up with Jesus Christ was, in my opinion, neither a mere coincidence nor was it in violation of Judas's free will.
Mestemia said:

Free will? Maybe?

If I remember correctly, one or two gospels mentioned (if not all 4 of them) that when Jesus identified the betrayer at the Last Supper, an "evil spirit" entered Judas.

Now, if we were taking the gospels literally, then what free-will did Judas have if he was under the influences of outsider, this evil spirit.

However, if you interpret this "evil spirit" merely as a metaphor for Judas' greed (or fear), then that's a different story altogether, and Judas did it out of free will, which was his greed for the silver coins.

Which is it? (about the spirit and free will)

  • If you take it literally (as the gospels say explicitly), then he has no free-will.
  • If metaphorically, then he has free will.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Oh, damn!

I forgot this is the same-faith debates. Oh, well.

I would appreciate it if anyone can reply to my post, regardless of lack of religion, because I think I've made some valid points.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
There were no more sacrifices of animals, largely because, shortly after the crucifixion, the Temple (where sacrifices took place) was razed by Rome.


The animal sacrifice like the mosaic law became obsolete when Christ came to the earth because they were only there as a temporary solution to atonement of sins until Christ had died for all sins.


You're holding "clergy" to a higher standard. That's not right.

There is one hope in Christ Jesus

Actually you are. I never mentioned the clergy. I mentioned the fact that he was an apostle. The apostles are kings and priests in the 1000 year reign of Christ. He was also to have his name on one of hte foundation stones of the figerative city of New Jerusalem (as the twelve apostles have their names on these) Rev 21:14

1 Cor :1-3
6 Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? 2 Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters? 3 Do YOU not know that we shall judge angels? Why, then, not matters of this life?

THey are Helping to judge the angels (now demons) with Christ mentioned here.

THe 144000 are mentioned here at Revelation 14:1-5
And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

This only mentiones 144000 standing on Mount Zion (which is heaven)

Revelation 7:1-8 says
After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Naph′ta‧li twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Ma‧nas′seh twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Sim′e‧on twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Is′sa‧char twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Zeb′u‧lun twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

Only 144000 are sealed for a heavenly hope


After all this happens then the Great Crowd is seen, an un numbered great crowd is seen. So above there is a specific number, then afterwards in Revealtion 7:9-10 we see the great crowd before the throne. Not in heaven with God but before it praising it


After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”



so this means that there is actually 2 hopes. The Earthly hope which has always been abd then the heavenly hope, which only came into existance after Christs death on the earth.



.

It has never been understood that the apostles were to be "higher on the food chain" in such a way.
Maybe not until the time was right for this to be revealed by the holy spirit. Ormaybe nobody is bothering to pay attention to the bible, only paying attention to the traditions of men.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What fear led him to disobey?

show me the scripture where you get this idea from please

It was prophesied that JEsus would be betrayed by one of his diciples, but it does not mention a name. It just says that he was.

At one stage Judas was a truly righteous man, he was chosen as an Apostle. For what his heart was not what it became.
Fear of Rome and the Religious Authorities.
 
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