Did Judas do God's will?

[Christian Pilgrim]

There is no such thing as Hell
And did judas deserve death?

Yes in the same way Adam and Eve did. They knew who God was, and were given everything, then threw it back in hios face. Just like Judus who knew who Jesus was and still he chose to go against the Son of God by his own free will, He knew who Jesus was and still betrayed and delivered him up to death.

A man who does this, turns against what he was given, (remember Judas was and Apostle) he deserves whatever he gets. Especially when they are going to be pillars in the new Kingdom of God, thus the cream of the crop. You want the nest people there, the ones not tainted by such a horrible action and done in the way he did it.

Do you believe a person's apparent free will determines his final eternal destination? Or do you believe the grace of God alone determines a person's eternal destiny (rom 9)?

 

[sojourner]

If no one deserves Hell, then why did God send His Son into the world? Do you think Judas is in Heaven since no one deserves Hell?

To be God With Us. To reconcile us. We are God's precious children. All of us. God did not create us only to wind up in hell. God's will is that we should turn to God. I believe that, eventually, God will have God's way. Otherwise, God is not God.
I hold hope that Judas finally turned and embraced God.

 

[sojourner]

A man who does this, turns against what he was given, (remember Judas was and Apostle) he deserves whatever he gets. Especially when they are going to be pillars in the new Kingdom of God, thus the cream of the crop. You want the nest people there, the ones not tainted by such a horrible action and done in the way he did it.

Except that God has never used "the cream of the crop" to do God's work. God always chooses the outcast, the soiled, the forgotten, the fringe folks. The only way this argument can even exist is if we determine that God meant for Jesus to die. I don't believe God did. I believe that his crucifixion was a terrible, terrible mistake.

No one deserves eternal death. If, as you say, Jesus died for all of us, so that all of us could have eternal life, then what power or meaning does that death carry if even one of us winds up lost? The crucifixion and the substitutionary atonement are completely ineffectual.

Please don't talk out of both sides of your mouth, theologically.

I know you like to probe and question the bible. I dont! I know its true.

I know it's true, too. What's your point? That we can't know the truth of the Bible and still probe and question?

and when you follow on what the scriptures talked about, it still means what i said it meant.

Only if you happen to be right. Sometimes you're not.

It still means we need a oneness of faith

We do have that. We all believe in one God, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

if (and this is a paraphrased quote) the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing in the body of Christ (the congregation) then how can you say you have a unity in faith?

This is what your sort of reading does. It convolutes and confuses. You're taking the paraphrase out of context. Jesus said that, when you give alms, you must not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. This is in reference, not to our faith, or our unity, but in reference to doing good works without a motivation for recognition. It's about motivation. It's about selfishness vs. selflessness. Your paraphrase doesn't mean anything in this particular application.

How can you say you know what he is talking about when you miss this whole point?

Which of us has missed the point here?

This sort of thinking you suggest promotes peoples thinking that there are contradictions in the bible, when in reality there are none.

But there simply are contradictions. Wishful thinking and uncritical reading won't make them go away. Critical reading helps us to understand the nature of the contradictions, where they come from, why they are there, and the best way for us to deal with them.

For example, we know that the genaeology as Matthew presents it in the first chapter is patently wrong. Instead of conjuring up some bogus, spiritual and mythic reason for it, we find, through critical reading, that Matthew has a good reason for pesenting the geneaology the way he does. For Matthew, it sets up the theological argument he makes in his gospel. Once we understand that, and once we understand just what his theological thrust is, the gospel makes a whole lot more sense, rather than floundering around and wondering.

You want things to be hard to understand, when in fact they are quite easy.

Things are hard to understand until we make them easy. There are so many nuances in the manner of the Greek writing, and in the cultural colloquialisms that Matthew uses, which his Greek-speaking audience would have immediately cabbaged onto, and that we completely miss in the lingual and cultural translation. We have to get inside his head and the heads of his audience if we are to, in any way, pick up on those nuances. In that way, the gospel can make so much more sense.

You do need to use your brain yes, when reading the bible, but in a different way that you are using it.

I use my brain in several different ways when reading the Bible. it depends on why I'm reading it, and what my goals are for reading it.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

To be God With Us. To reconcile us. We are God's precious children. All of us. God did not create us only to wind up in hell. God's will is that we should turn to God. I believe that, eventually, God will have God's way. Otherwise, God is not God.
I hold hope that Judas finally turned and embraced God.

I wish your view of universalism is the truth since I have friends and family who have died apart from faith in Christ. However, Scripture does not bear out the idea of universalism. Do you think all that God destroyed in the flood are in Heaven? Do you think Old Testatment Saints were saved by the blood of Christ, shed at Calvary on the cross? How do you reconcile my signature Bible verse with your view of universalism? Why does Scripture teach that we are born as children of wrath, children of disobedience, children of the darkness, and children of the devil. And when we believe in Christ, God adopts us into His family at that point. What's the point of the doctrine of adoption and sonship if we are already children of God? How do your reconcile Romans 9 and the clear distinction of God's vessel of wrath and God's vessel of merch. Yes, God will always have His way. The view of universalism diminishes the seriousness of sin and rebellion against God, and the glorious cross of Christ. IMO, you would have to throw out most of Scripture to believe in universalism. Unbelief in the Bible is a sin that has eternal consequences in the worst way.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1

He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. - 1 John

 

[sojourner]

However, Scripture does not bear out the idea of universalism.

Sure it does. God's mercy to the undeserving is an overarching theme for the Bible.

Do you think all that God destroyed in the flood are in Heaven?

I believe that all people will eventually return to God.

Do you think Old Testatment Saints were saved by the blood of Christ, shed at Calvary on the cross?

I believe that the Incarnation reconciled all humanity to God.

How do you reconcile my signature Bible verse with your view of universalism?

The narrow gate is the gate of righteousness. You see, the gospels were written by believers, for believers. These people were working on being righteous in an unrighteous world. It's an assurance for them, not a warning to everyone else.

Why does Scripture teach that we are born as children of wrath, children of disobedience, children of the darkness, and children of the devil.

Why does the Bible teach that we were created good, that God loves us and desires us to be with God?

And when we believe in Christ, God adopts us into His family at that point.

The Bible also teaches that one righteous person can save whole communities of sinners.

What's the point of the doctrine of adoption and sonship if we are already children of God?

The point isn't if or when, the point is, what do we do with it? Now that we've been adopted, how shall we act?

The view of universalism diminishes the seriousness of sin and rebellion against God, and the glorious cross of Christ.

I don't believe it does. If the cross is efficacious, then it must be efficacious for all, or it is a joke.

IMO, you would have to throw out most of Scripture to believe in universalism. Unbelief in the Bible is a sin that has eternal consequences in the worst way.

IMO, you would have to throw out much of scripture to believe in selective salvation.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1

Again, written by believers, for believers. What's your point?
This isn't a call for evangelism. It's a word of support.

He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3

Same deal.

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. - 1 John

Ditto.

These just aren't good arguments. They are good examples of proof-texting.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Sure it does. God's mercy to the undeserving is an overarching theme for the Bible.

I believe that all people will eventually return to God.

I believe that the Incarnation reconciled all humanity to God.
The narrow gate is the gate of righteousness. You see, the gospels were written by believers, for believers. These people were working on being righteous in an unrighteous world. It's an assurance for them, not a warning to everyone else.

Why does the Bible teach that we were created good, that God loves us and desires us to be with God?

The Bible also teaches that one righteous person can save whole communities of sinners.

The point isn't if or when, the point is, what do we do with it? Now that we've been adopted, how shall we act?

I don't believe it does. If the cross is efficacious, then it must be efficacious for all, or it is a joke.

IMO, you would have to throw out much of scripture to believe in selective salvation.

Again, written by believers, for believers. What's your point?
This isn't a call for evangelism. It's a word of support.

Same deal.

Ditto.

These just aren't good arguments. They are good examples of proof-texting.

All I can say is that we both are entitled to our mutually exclusive views. The last point I want to make about universalism with Christianity is:

If Christianity teaches universalism, then why are so many offended and extreme hostile to Christianity? What other world religions are hated by others in such extreme degrees. If you remove the offense of the cross, then Christianity blends with all other religions. Here is another text for you to reconcile with universalism and Christianity:

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thes 1

 

[lunamoth]

It seems to me that both predestination and universalism deny free will. Having said that, it is hard for me to believe that any human fully healed and whole could say no to God's love when clearly confronted by it.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

It seems to me that both predestination and universalism deny free will. Having said that, it is hard for me to believe that any human fully healed and whole could say no to God's love when clearly confronted by it.

Please share your view on free will and what Christ came to do. It seems that Romans 6 teaches that all are in bondage of our sin nature, and when we were powerless to do anything about it, God sent His Son into this world to rescue us from our bondage and slavery to sin. The words powerless or bondage doesn't seem to indicate we are free to change our conditon from within. Maybe are wills are free to sin? Christ sent by the Father into this sin cursed world was a rescue mission. What Did Christ rescue us from, or did He rescue us from anything? If will have our own ability to do something about our fallen nature from within, then Christ came into this world in vain. We might as well be humanists, or embrace other forms of self-religion if the work of Christ was unecessary to save us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Paul

 

[lunamoth]

My legs are broken so I can't climb the stairs myself. But if I want to climb the stairs I can ask someone to carry me up.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

My legs are broken so I can't climb the stairs myself. But if I want to climb the stairs I can ask someone to carry me up.

What would cause you to ask for the help? Did this desire to ask for help come from within or from an outside source?

 

[lunamoth]

What would cause you to ask for the help? Did this desire to ask for help come from within or from an outside source?

God woos us, lures us, everyone and continuously. We are free to respond or not.

When the music starts who can tell who moves first, the one who leads or the one who follows?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

God woos us, lures us, everyone and continuously. We are free to respond or not.

When the music starts who can tell who moves first, the one who leads or the one who follows?

There are basically two views of God the Holy Spirit in regards to our discussion:

1. woos
2. quickens

One view is reavealed in the Bible, and other one is not found in the Bible (IMO).

Does the Spirit of God woo or quickens the walking dead zombies?

Romans 4:17: - KJV

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Romans 4:17: - ESV
as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

 

[sojourner]

If Christianity teaches universalism, then why are so many offended and extreme hostile to Christianity? What other world religions are hated by others in such extreme degrees. If you remove the offense of the cross, then Christianity blends with all other religions. Here is another text for you to reconcile with universalism and Christianity:

I didn't say that Xy teaches universalism. I said that universalism is present in scripture.
Christianity doesn't blend with all other religions, because of it's unique approach to reconciliation, which is based upon God's grace, and not our action.

God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thes 1

Just what is the "gospel that must be obeyed?"

Once again, this isn't a judgment passage -- it's one of hope. Look at the last sentence.

 

[lunamoth]

There are basically two views of God the Holy Spirit in regards to our discussion:

1. woos
2. quickens

One view is reavealed in the Bible, and other one is not found in the Bible (IMO).

Does the Spirit of God woo or quickens the walking dead zombies?

Romans 4:17: - KJV

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Romans 4:17: - ESV
as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

The entire Bible is the story of God calling us, wooing us, to return to Him.

 

[sojourner]

One view is reavealed in the Bible, and other one is not found in the Bible (IMO).

It's not?
To woo is to court a relationship. To quicken is to act upon something, regardless of the other party's disposition.
The Bible is chock full of relationship. What do you think a covenant is? It's a relationship.
If we "obey the gospel," that is, "turn around, because God's imperial reign has come near," then we will be open to the God that is already within us.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

It's not?
To woo is to court a relationship. To quicken is to act upon something, regardless of the other party's disposition.
The Bible is chock full of relationship. What do you think a covenant is? It's a relationship.
If we "obey the gospel," that is, "turn around, because God's imperial reign has come near," then we will be open to the God that is already within us.

I don't think God is "within us all" as in univeralism with this passage, do you? Do you believe the wrath of God is applicable today? Do you believe that faith in Christ is unecessary for individuals to be reconciled to God through Christ?

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

The entire Bible is the story of God calling us, wooing us, to return to Him.

How do your reconcile your post with Romans 9?

Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel's Unbelief

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[lunamoth]

How do your reconcile your post with Romans 9?

Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel's Unbelief

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

1. This passage is descriptive, not prescriptive. Some people do not accept God. Nowhere does it say God casts anyone aside forever.

2. Paul did not write a systematic theology and this can't be taken as such. Paul is concerned with God's grace and God's sovereignty. The predestination spoken of by Paul in Romans refers exactly to God's wooing us from the time before we are even aware of the call, an eternal love seeking us.

3. Because of God's sovereignty we don't see the whole picture, so who are we, mere vessels of clay, to question the potter? No one sees the whole picture. Not you, not me, and not Paul.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

1. This passage is descriptive, not prescriptive. Some people do not accept God. Nowhere does it say God casts anyone aside forever.

2. Paul did not write a systematic theology and this can't be taken as such. Paul is concerned with God's grace and God's sovereignty. The predestination spoken of by Paul in Romans refers exactly to God's wooing us from the time before we are even aware of the call, an eternal love seeking us.

3. Because of God's sovereignty we don't see the whole picture, so who are we, mere vessels of clay, to question the potter? No one sees the whole picture. Not you, not me, and not Paul.

I think Pharaoh would disagree with your posting. Check out the account in Genesis

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Paul and Moses

 

[lunamoth]

I think Pharaoh would disagree with your posting. Check out the account in Genesis

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Paul and Moses

I think you mean in Exodus.

You may feel certain that Pharaoh was put outside God's kingdom forever but I am not. I only know that his heart was hard toward the Israelites and that God used this for His own glory. Pharaoh's hard heart could not circumvent God's will and, as with so many other things, God can transform anything ultimately to His own use.

Frankly that gives me hope that even the suffering we encounter in this life is not wasted but somehow is transformed.