Did Judas do God's will?

[lockyfan]

Hmmm, how very interesting. I believe that Judas did carry out the will of God, for was it not prophesied in the Old Testament that the Son of God was to die to save man from sin? Is jesus not always talking of the prophesy that was made about Himself?

I will try and find quotes, but I warn you, they will not be easy to read. I have got one of the old King James Bibles, and the way that the words are written, I find it hard to believe that anyone could ever read it. Anyway, I'll do a bit of searching.

Blessings,

:candle:

Find those for us, that would be great. Then you can search online for a King James Bible version, then find the scriptures (there is a good one on here somewhere that lets you search multiple texts at once) and copy and paste them here.

Below are some of the prophesies about Jesus:
Born of the tribe of Judah Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:23-33

Born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25

Descended from King David Isaiah 9:7 Matthew 1:1, 6-17

Declared by Jehovah to be
his Son Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17

Not believed in
Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37, 38

Entered Jerusalem riding an *** Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-9

Betrayed by a close associate Psalm 41:9 John 13:18, 21-30

Betrayed for 30 silver pieces Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:14-16

Silent before his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:11-14

Lots cast for his garments Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35

Reviled while on the stake Psalm 22:7, 8 Matthew 27:39-43

None of his bones broken Psalm 34:20 John 19:33, 36

Buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60

Raised before corruption Psalm 16:10 Acts 2:24, 27

Exalted to God’s right hand Psalm 110:1 Acts 7:56



We find out in the New Testament what he came for. The prophesies in the old testament or most of them anyway, were to clearly identify him, so that when he came, we would know who he was.

Also the blood sacrifice, we no longer have to do, like the Hebrews used to for forgiveness of their sins, because Jesus, was that final blood sacrifice for us.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

Saint Augustine was catholic too and his view of free will is radically different than most Roman Catholics and modern day Protestants alike. Can man's freewill override God's ordained plans, usurping the will of God? Who is sovereign in this universe, God or man? IMO... free will as you probably understand it... is a myth and not supported by sacred Scripture. Have you read much of Augustine?

 

[lockyfan]

Actually free will is supported by sacred scripture. If eve didnt have free will how could she have chosen to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Bad. I mean if Jehovah God had not given her the chance to choose, she would have not eaten that fruit because she would have been a robot and said no i cant eat that.

Instead with free will the serpent, that was used by satan to talk to her, would not have been able to convince her to eat the fruit now would he?

nothing can override Gods ordains Purpose for the earth.

his will is that it be a paradise for human kind to enjoy, and so shall it be.

God Proves to be what he Proves to be. A being of love, that has justice, mercy, wisdom power and light. He can not lie.

Jehovah God is the sovereign of this universe. Satan using his own free will challenged and tarnished Jehovahs Good name and still does so today. He started that in the Garden of Eden when he used the snake to say to eve "You posivtively will not die, For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad"

He called God a liar right there and then. God proved then that He wasnt a liar, because from that day Adam and Eve were spiritually dead to Him and they both died with the first 1000 years, which we later learn that 1000 years to humans is one day to God

 

[sojourner]

Show a contradiction, using scriptures, not man made ideas to form your argument

God is with us is what Emmanuel means. Also means that Jesus, who was the Messiah (scriptures again show us this) was the perfect reflection of his Father, Jehovah God.

There is one way to read the bible and one way only. If you interpret it any other way, you do not have harmony amongst your congregation and we are told yet again in the scriptures, that we need to be as one in the truth of the bible.

If you can not believe that the bible tells the truth, without mans traditions, then you will find that the priests and religions of our day, are jsut as bad as the Pharisees in Jesus' day.

Maybe you need to look deeper into "the deeps things of God"and get yourself an "accurate knowledge of the truth" of what the bible Really teaches.

So did Judas do God's Will?

One of the most well-known and most obvious is the Gen. 1 & 2 controversy, although You''ll probably have some stock way to sidestep it...

That's what I said...God with us. Not "Son of God with us." More than that, scripture tells us that God was made incarnate.

Only one way? MK...what way? What way is the "right" way? Do you know? How do you know? And how many interpretations can one glean out of reading in that "one way?"

Differences in interpretation do not necessarily lead to dissonance in the congregation.

The Bible is part of human Tradition. Where do you think it came from? Did it fall out of the sky in King James English with red letters? And in what way do human traditions make me as "bad as the Pharisees?"

Maybe I've gone deeper than you know and don't need your help or advice.

No. Judas did not do God's will. Judas engaged in betrayal and deception. Those are not God's ways.

 

[lockyfan]

What is the Genesis 1&2 controversy, so that I can look for myself and understand where you come from so I can formulate my response.

There is but one interpretation of the bible, if you read it one way. Because it is about oneness of faith, not five thousand ideas that come from the one faith,

No the bible did not fall out of hte sky, but the way you were saying "tradition"sounded more likethe Pharisees idea of tradition, that they do go by the laws but misused and misinterpreted the scriptures, thus misleading their nation at that time. Whih Jesus did condem them for.

Maybe you have gone deep into the bible, but maybe that is becasue you are trying to find answers and your iea of "thius is wisdom doing this and wisdom doing that" what is wisdom? It is not what you are saying it is. It is not an entity. It is merely one facet that makes up who Jehovah God is.

Yes i agree with you there. Judas did not do God's Will.

 

[sojourner]

What is the Genesis 1&2 controversy, so that I can look for myself and understand where you come from so I can formulate my response.

There is but one interpretation of the bible, if you read it one way. Because it is about oneness of faith, not five thousand ideas that come from the one faith,

No the bible did not fall out of hte sky, but the way you were saying "tradition"sounded more likethe Pharisees idea of tradition, that they do go by the laws but misused and misinterpreted the scriptures, thus misleading their nation at that time. Whih Jesus did condem them for.

Maybe you have gone deep into the bible, but maybe that is becasue you are trying to find answers and your iea of "thius is wisdom doing this and wisdom doing that" what is wisdom? It is not what you are saying it is. It is not an entity. It is merely one facet that makes up who Jehovah God is.

Yes i agree with you there. Judas did not do God's Will.

Genesis 1 does not jive with Genesis 2. Human beings are made differently, and the order of creation is different. It's a contradiction that we can't wish away.

It's not about different ideas? Why would you say that? I look around me, and the reality I see is of the one Body with many, many different ideas. Yet, we're all God's children, we're all chosen, and we all act out of our Christian sense.
What if we read the Bible several different ways? We'll get many interpretations. That's the beauty of the Bible -- it lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations, just as the ekklesia has always lent itself to a multiplicity of understandings.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees, not for their misunderstanding, but for their motivation.

We can never know the answers. That's why I like stuff that raises more questions and possibilities and am angered by cheap, "pat" answers to very, very deep stuff. We do the Bible a great disservice if we don't dig, and discover, and question, and rethink, and question some more, and question some more. The whole idea of the Bible lending itself to multiple interpretation only shows me, not our misunderstanding, but God's greatness.

Read Proverbs 8. In a very poetic way, the writer has Wisdom talking in the first person, like an "entity." Maybe that's the best way (or at least one way) for us to understand wisdom. We don't generate wisdom. WE generate knowledge. Wisdom comes to us by itself.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Actually free will is supported by sacred scripture. If eve didnt have free will how could she have chosen to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Bad. I mean if Jehovah God had not given her the chance to choose, she would have not eaten that fruit because she would have been a robot and said no i cant eat that.

Instead with free will the serpent, that was used by satan to talk to her, would not have been able to convince her to eat the fruit now would he?

nothing can override Gods ordains Purpose for the earth.

his will is that it be a paradise for human kind to enjoy, and so shall it be.

God Proves to be what he Proves to be. A being of love, that has justice, mercy, wisdom power and light. He can not lie.

Jehovah God is the sovereign of this universe. Satan using his own free will challenged and tarnished Jehovahs Good name and still does so today. He started that in the Garden of Eden when he used the snake to say to eve "You posivtively will not die, For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad"

He called God a liar right there and then. God proved then that He wasnt a liar, because from that day Adam and Eve were spiritually dead to Him and they both died with the first 1000 years, which we later learn that 1000 years to humans is one day to God

Thanks for the correction, because Adam and Eve did have free will to obey God. After the fall, I think our will is inclined to sin, and also in bondage to sin. Therefore, our will is not free from our fallen nature.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for the correction, because Adam and Eve did have free will to obey God. After the fall, I think our will is inclined to sin, and also in bondage to sin. Therefore, our will is not free from our fallen nature.

They also had free will to disobey, which they did. Our inclination is to sin, because we became "like God." We tend to blur the distinction between humanity and Divinity. We act "on our own," instead of turning toward God. But, we still have free will to turn. We still have free will to aspire to righteousness.

 

[lockyfan]

Genesis 1 does not jive with Genesis 2. Human beings are made differently, and the order of creation is different. It's a contradiction that we can't wish away.

It's not about different ideas? Why would you say that? I look around me, and the reality I see is of the one Body with many, many different ideas. Yet, we're all God's children, we're all chosen, and we all act out of our Christian sense.
What if we read the Bible several different ways? We'll get many interpretations. That's the beauty of the Bible -- it lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations, just as the ekklesia has always lent itself to a multiplicity of understandings.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees, not for their misunderstanding, but for their motivation.

We can never know the answers. That's why I like stuff that raises more questions and possibilities and am angered by cheap, "pat" answers to very, very deep stuff. We do the Bible a great disservice if we don't dig, and discover, and question, and rethink, and question some more, and question some more. The whole idea of the Bible lending itself to multiple interpretation only shows me, not our misunderstanding, but God's greatness.

Read Proverbs 8. In a very poetic way, the writer has Wisdom talking in the first person, like an "entity." Maybe that's the best way (or at least one way) for us to understand wisdom. We don't generate wisdom. WE generate knowledge. Wisdom comes to us by itself.

Yeah I do actually have an answer to sidestep the "contradictions" between the two texts.

Genesis 2 goes into the actual detail, whereas Genesis 1 gives us the whole picture. Kind of like the opening paragraph to a story, it tells you all you need to know, then the body goes into deeper detail


There needs to be a oneness in faith, in Ephesians 4:12-13
for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God,

You see even there it is a oneness in faith. there are other scripture that i implore you to read, make your own mind up for it, dont just take my word, make up your own mind.

yes you need to think and question and rethink about what the bible says, but in a way that then benefits you spiritually, not just so that you can sound cool.


yeah um wasnt the writer King Solomon? he did have a whole heap of wisdom

One of the Wisest men to have been on the earth and it was given to him by God Himself.


You do have a lot of knowledge I do not deny that, but as I said in another post we may have to agree to disagree. either that or any of the scriptures that you dont agree with me, go back and read for yourself, thats all I am saying to anyone, dont take peoples work, read for yourself. Use you God given free will. Just as jUdas did. His own free will he chose to betray Jesus, not through anything to do with God.

 

[SpiritualBeing]

I have found the following passage, which is from the New Testament, with the use of Bible Gateway, which is a searchable colection of over 50 Bibles in 100 different lanuages. I thought that this quote fitted rather nicely into what I was saying. It details Jesus prophesying His betrayal.

John 13:18
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'"

I cannot find anything else just now, but I will keep looking.

:candle:

 

[sojourner]

Yeah I do actually have an answer to sidestep the "contradictions" between the two texts.

Genesis 2 goes into the actual detail, whereas Genesis 1 gives us the whole picture. Kind of like the opening paragraph to a story, it tells you all you need to know, then the body goes into deeper detail

I've heard that before, but I don't think it holds water. There are too many differences in they style of storytelling. Most scholars think (and I agree) that the two accounts are by different authors, that later redactors put together. See, it was more important for them to preserve all the Tradition, rather than "make it fit."

There needs to be a oneness in faith, in Ephesians 4:12-13
for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God,

"...to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the body of Christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ."
This doesn't say what I think you think it says. "Unity of faith" has nothing to do with uniformity of belief. it has to do with who we understand ourselves to be in relationship with God and with each other.

yeah um wasnt the writer King Solomon? he did have a whole heap of wisdom

We don't know who the author was.

yes you need to think and question and rethink about what the bible says, but in a way that then benefits you spiritually, not just so that you can sound cool.

It does benefit me spiritually.

dont take peoples work, read for yourself. Use you God given free will.

Since Xy is a communal faith, it only makes sense to listen to others and to collaborate. Interpretation isn't an individual activity. It involves a "sense of the community."

 

[Spiritone]

This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

That's a good question and one my attention was brought to by some author of books on Christianity. I think it is more likely that Judas was asked by Jesus to do that and had the hardest job of anyone involved. A dedicated follower of Jesus would not just go and betray Him for any reason especially for money.

 

[LittleNipper]

That's a good question and one my attention was brought to by some author of books on Christianity. I think it is more likely that Judas was asked by Jesus to do that and had the hardest job of anyone involved. A dedicated follower of Jesus would not just go and betray Him for any reason especially for money.

No, JESUS selected Judas because of his qualities. One being that he was most likely a thief, a cheat, self-centered, and looking to ride on the band wagon. Judas was on his way to hell and if (IF) Judas had REPENTED of his deeds, Judas would have received forgiveness. Judas appears to have also have been a coward. He killed himself. HEll is hell, no matter what one does or doesn't do to get there... There is the will of GOD and there is the permissive will of GOD. GOD allowed Judas to be himself.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

No, JESUS selected Judas because of his qualities. One being that he was most likely a thief, a cheat, self-centered, and looking to ride on the band wagon. Judas was on his way to hell and if (IF) Judas had REPENTED of his deeds, Judas would have received forgiveness. Judas appears to have also have been a coward. He killed himself. HEll is hell, no matter what one does or doesn't do to get there... There is the will of GOD and there is the permissive will of GOD. GOD allowed Judas to be himself.

Interesting... and here are follow-up questions for the Christian (non-Christians can answer too). Does Judas deserve Hell in the same way that everyone else deserves Hell? And why are you able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel, and Judas did not? What makes Judas any different than Peter? The last that I remember, Peter denied Jesus just like Judas. What does Scripture tell us why Peter was able to know the idenity of Jesus as being the Christ? Do you think Peter was a vessel of God's mercy, and Judas was a vessel of God's wrath (read Romans 9)?

 

[LittleNipper]

Interesting... and here are follow-up questions for the Christian (non-Christians can answer too). Does Judas deserve Hell in the same way that everyone else deserves Hell? And why are you able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel, and Judas did not? What makes Judas any different than Peter? The last that I remember, Peter denied Jesus just like Judas. What does Scripture tell us why Peter was able to know the idenity of Jesus as being the Christ? Do you think Peter was a vessel of God's mercy, and Judas was a vessel of God's wrath (read Romans 9)?

Everyone is worthy only of GOD's wrath. Because GOD first loved us, CHRIST died for us. If Peter had killed himself after he denied CHRIST 3 times, he would likely have gone to hell also. He didn't. He met the risen SAVIOR and Peter was saved.

 

[sojourner]

Interesting... and here are follow-up questions for the Christian (non-Christians can answer too). Does Judas deserve Hell in the same way that everyone else deserves Hell? And why are you able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel, and Judas did not? What makes Judas any different than Peter? The last that I remember, Peter denied Jesus just like Judas. What does Scripture tell us why Peter was able to know the idenity of Jesus as being the Christ? Do you think Peter was a vessel of God's mercy, and Judas was a vessel of God's wrath (read Romans 9)?

I think you're reading too much into it. Peter knew Jesus, but he knew Jesus in the wrong way -- in the way the demons knew Jesus. That's why Jesus told him, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter rebuked Jesus for saying that he must die.
No one deserves hell. That's why God has reconciled us to God's Self.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I think you're reading too much into it. Peter knew Jesus, but he knew Jesus in the wrong way -- in the way the demons knew Jesus. That's why Jesus told him, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter rebuked Jesus for saying that he must die.
No one deserves hell. That's why God has reconciled us to God's Self.

If no one deserves Hell, then why did God send His Son into the world? Do you think Judas is in Heaven since no one deserves Hell?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Everyone is worthy only of GOD's wrath. Because GOD first loved us, CHRIST died for us. If Peter had killed himself after he denied CHRIST 3 times, he would likely have gone to hell also. He didn't. He met the risen SAVIOR and Peter was saved.

I beieve Old Testament Saints were saved by the risen Savior prior to His incarnation. How about you?

 

[lockyfan]

I think you're reading too much into it. Peter knew Jesus, but he knew Jesus in the wrong way -- in the way the demons knew Jesus. That's why Jesus told him, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter rebuked Jesus for saying that he must die.
No one deserves hell. That's why God has reconciled us to God's Self.

There is no such thing as Hell
And did judas deserve death?

Yes in the same way Adam and Eve did. They knew who God was, and were given everything, then threw it back in hios face. Just like Judus who knew who Jesus was and still he chose to go against the Son of God by his own free will, He knew who Jesus was and still betrayed and delivered him up to death.

A man who does this, turns against what he was given, (remember Judas was and Apostle) he deserves whatever he gets. Especially when they are going to be pillars in the new Kingdom of God, thus the cream of the crop. You want the nest people there, the ones not tainted by such a horrible action and done in the way he did it.

 

[lockyfan]

Sojourner in reply to your posts earlier. I know you like to probe and question the bible. I dont! I know its true. I know its from God, and when you follow on what the scriptures talked about, it still means what i said it meant. It still means we need a oneness of faith, because if (and this is a paraphrased quote) the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing in the body of Christ (the congregation) then how can you say you have a unity in faith? How can you say you know what he is talking about when you miss this whole point?

This sort of thinking you suggest promotes peoples thinking that there are contradictions in the bible, when in reality there are none. You want things to be hard to understand, when in fact they are quite easy. Why do you wish things to be difficult to understand? just so you can question and probe? You do need to use your brain yes, when reading the bible, but in a different way that you are using it.