Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

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I use to read Bahai writing even ones not on the internet anymore like the original full Bayan (the one from alBab which I can't find online anymore) which said Mohammad and Ali and Fatima and chosen leaders of their family existed eternally with no beginning and will exist forever, while the original hadiths has it as either 14 000 years or some other number like 1000 years, but the most correct hadiths in terms of authenticity have it as 14 000. That's crazy talk, everything has a start point and is limited except God in terms of time and also of power and light.

I was really interested in high school.

I use to read thinking wow this is so cool when I didn't understand much of Quran and when more sorcery veiling the Quran took upon my mind and heart, that seeing it's light and truth.

I was playful but then said, let me read kitabal itqan, because maybe it was just exaggeration that they existed eternally, and he means, something else. I left it as ambiguous metaphor or something. And then when he said day of judgment is all this none sense of Jesus being resurrection day of Moses, and himself being resurrection day of Mohammad or something like that, I knew this was too far. Not for me. I knew it was way too playful with words of Quran then.

I stick by that now and even certain more now of this because I've become more familiar with Quran then before.

 

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By the way, I find the commentary of the Maitreya funny to the 1000 years for a Prophet not come by Baha'allah. He says, just like it seemed like that in the Bayan (the verse is almost identical) and the clear meaning was that a Prophet comes and unseal its and interprets it according to the clear meaning, he is a Prophet interpreting to the clear meaning in which Bahais are doing the same mistake of the followers of the Bab who don't accept Baha'allah, and the same mistake as Muslims with respect to the sealing of the Prophets.

You see language games makes it all possible to twist however you want. This is what I find funny. If Bahais were consistent, they should accept Maitreya interpretation of that. It makes more sense to be honest, then quoting a verse exactly like it was before in the Bayan and saying the clear meaning is the opposite to what is in the bayan.

Funny, he makes more sense in his interpretation but we all know, it's a game gone too far.

 

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Also, I read the books of the Maitreya. I was interested in fake Prophets before lol. They seem more sophisticated then the Quran and Sunnah, till, you gain insights to the Quran and Sunnah, then the forgers become a joke.

 

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Also, there was fake Prophet during the time of Mohammad (s). Mohammad (s) let him do his thing but the fake Prophet was not seen as threat by any community. I wish Shiites did the same with Bab and Baha'allah but apparently, from history, I've read from both sides, and it seems Bab started a physical war, and was rampaging cities, till he was stopped. There was a trial to see what he was claiming because you don't want to reject a representative of Imam Mahdi with no proof and you want to make the clear the truth to people. But they didn't execute him only for claiming a false divinely positions, but also, he and his followers killed innocents and started rampaging cities.

Baha'allah came on the other hand and said no more fighting and made more of a passive peaceful movement. It's said he annulled the fighting injunctions of the Bab.

But all this was with a people who caused fighting and havoc.

Now to know true history is hard from majority to minority argument, just as Shiite-Sunni history is complicated, but it seems this is the case, from history perspective as far I'm aware of.

That said, now, after all this time, it's time to allow Bab followers and Bahais freedom. This is a matter of principle but also, it will benefit Shiites and Muslims more, if they allow freedom as prosecuting and oppressing people freedom of speech makes a stronger case for the people oppressed and doesn't extinguish it.

A lot of misguided sects in the past died off, because, they were left to say what they want, but eventually no one took it seriously. But prosecute them, and they will rally and people will rally and their voice stronger.

That said, some Bahais and their crimes with the Shah needed prosecution, but it shouldn't be to the extent you attack all Bahais and now allow them freedom of religion. Now you've made them a stronger case.

The leader of the revolution Khomeini (May God sanctify his secret), was wrong in a lot of things. He shouldn't have gave Salman Rushdie publicity and the prosecution of the MKO should've been in terms of their political havoc which was the true reason, and not trials of apostacy which was foolish way to justify it.

May God give us strength, and give guidance to Khamanei (may God protect him) who is stressed of the delicate nature and fabric of his society. Even if Khamanei wanted to change this policy, it's extremely hard, because, really, Khamanei (God protect him) is not as powerful in Iran as people make him seem. He is the position of WF but hardly anyone takes him as serious as he should. There are some sincere people and it's as Qasim Sulaimani says, his innocence is far more then his righteousness, and they are both a lot, but his too innocent and is left alone. He is alone, Khamanei and people hate for saying not to cut your skin of your head or babies during Ashura and don't stupid rituals that give us a bad name. So how much can he change? He can't.

The delicate nature of division between hardliners and softies, and those between caught up in this, and Khamanei holding on the revolution for dear life, while things are getting heated, and the pressure of US on Iran, has made it impossible.

Even freedom of speech is not respected, because of how delicate the issue of unity is. This is sad, but stop the pressure on them, and I'm sure they will change these policies. Even freedom of expression will become so open. But in stressful nature, and with US paying agents, they can't. They just can't.

The Iran revolution is the last defense against the world order by Iblis from US and Zionists on the whole world. It's the last resistance. We lose this, and you can bet when the Mahdi comes, he probably won't be a mercy and favor to the worlds, but the cause of their destruction and a curse to the world with few believers.

This is the reality, you can talk ideals, ideals are impossible in stressful situation Iran is in.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I mean you guys don't even accept something that all Muslims see clearly which is the day of judgment. I discussed a little about it, and saw how you guys play games with those verses. I believe there is no religion as dishonest as Bahaism as far I can witness in that it twists text to support their preconceived notions despite it being clearly other than their interpretation.

Link that is just as applicable to your own stance, who is it to say it is not your views that are preconceived, after all the Baha'i Writing's makes all things New, a critical part of all end of age's prophecy.

Baha'i see this is the Judgement day for all Humanity, Muslim included, there is no free pass.

It is just as likely your are in the Day of Judgement and your own words are judging you.

Regards Tony

 

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Link that is just as applicable to your own stance, who is it to say it is not your views that are preconceived, after all the Baha'i Writing's makes all things New, a critical part of all end of age's prophecy.

Baha'i see this is the Judgement day for all Humanity, Muslim included, there is no free pass.

It is just as likely your are in the Day of Judgement and your own words are judging you.

Regards Tony

I rely on God. Quran says it if Mohammad was a forger, still God would confirm the truth with his words and blot out the falsehood, and seal his heart to not be able to guide and so there is no reason to give up for looking for guidance no matter how many false Prophets there are.

And among many things, is Quran exposes false Prophets and false religions. The day of judgment is not only clear, it has philosophical arguments for it, and so does the life between then and day of judgement, which does have punishment and reward, but just like people are blind to hell surrounding them in this world, the barzakh life, is a process, where as your deeds and your living organs of the soul, not body, is still not manifested in full form.

Ahlulbayt are alive, in the spiritual world, and can still assist their followers. And martyrs also are under their guidance and can be used to inspire believers by God's command through Ahlulbayt.

The thing is there is a barrier between dead and this world, yet some people see the spiritual world, or are dreams are a way to interact with that world, and dead can come back in. This is one reason, that the full reality is not exposed yet, till the day of Qiyamah.

The life between will be narrow for the disbelievers, and they will take side of wrong forces, and they will see Ahlulbayt and Prophets and Messengers and Angels, as all ugly and evil and be scared from them.

Then on the day of judgment, they will be asked, as to what they thought of these holy spirits from God who will testify against a group of people each, each time has a witness from God over a people per Quran. And God will say "where is the enchanter", as the truth is so clear, no one will be able to deny it, while in the past, miracles were accused of being sorcery by their denial.

Yet, despite all this clarity in the truth, their vision to God, would be, that they are blind to his beauty and veiled from Him. They won't even be able to prostrate to him as their affliction prevents them from loving Him.

It's too late, and all regrets in Quran are witnessed to be too late then. Devils when they die, pledge to God return me I will do good, but God says this is just a word they say. But on the day of judgment, they mean what they say, but Quran says it too late then, just as regret when destructions comes on the cities and people cry out "we were oppressors" continuously, it's too late. God doesn't stop it. They are destroyed and it's over.

The one time a person was so sincere to God, was Pharoah, he regretted and submitted with full belief in mercy of God, but then when God saved his body, as he wasn't willing to save his soul given how much crimes he has done and leaving to last second, he then over time, reverted to disbelief and continue to lead astray.

The day of judgment is expressed as a day when it's too late to regret in so many verses. I could care less how you guys twist left right center all those verses and play language games.


Barzakh life some do regret like Devils, and wish they can return, others are further blinded despite the punishment on them, and the day of super clarity whence the proof of God's light is so manifest, and the Spirit (the holy spirit) is risen and takes manifest position, is a day when God doesn't allow anyone room for excuses and it's done.

There is no ambiguity about it. The reason is clear the Quran shows, till then, actions are hidden so that who strives can strive out sincere love to God and how hates, will be veiled, from his evil, till that day. He wishes to try us who is best in deeds.

Then day of judgment, our actions and their reality, will be seen as is. The books which the witnesses kept and written and preserved, the leaders of each time, who are the drivers behind the scenes and meant to be drivers and Captains in the open as well but people opposed them, these witnesses will testify, and our organs will testify.

Each time has a family of the reminder who are the stars of guidance and who witness the people along with the king from God on earth. And there is always a king and leader on earth but sometimes they are away from public, but never, is the earth without one per Quran and ahadith. Per Quran by the talk of Imam, Had, and Shuhada (leader, guide, and witnesses) all over. It is not ambiguous in this regard at all.

The fact is you deny the spirit from God who is the pole by which God draws all humans to good and the king to return to for all humans, and to support outwardly and inwardly, shows you guys are not aware of God's seat and authority in the heavens and the earth, and the light by which he guides humans by and the spirit he helps believers by. Why don't you quote all the hadiths about that, or perhaps they cannot be twisted with Quran left right and center?

Sorry. The day of judgment, Quran spoke about in lengths. I will not throw my brain to say the Bahais have a case, rather, I testify that you aren't sincere to the Quran at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry. The day of judgment, Quran spoke about in lengths. I will not throw my brain to say the Bahais have a case, rather, I testify that you aren't sincere to the Quran at all

That is your free will choice Link, it may also be your judgement!

All the best Link, that all I wish for all people. May Allah be with us all.

Regards Tony

 

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It is my judgment and all we have at the end is our testimony. I don't subscribe to any official religion including Islam or Shiism, because, the true guidance is God's guidance. But that said, I don't think, there exists anyone more insincere to Quran then Bahais. Perhaps Ghulats in the past were more insincere, those who worshipped Ali and Ahlulbayt, but, they probably played similar language games with Quran. Worshiping Ali is worshiping God point of view, and probably had there own interpretation of Tahleel of one God and some kind of unity of the Divine light with God and Ali. I don't know their arguments, but, I'm sure any one can play language games with Quran if they come to it to prove their sectarian beliefs as opposed to seeking mental clarity from it.

 

[MonkeyFire]

"God, the Trillogy."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is my judgment and all we have at the end is our testimony. I don't subscribe to any official religion including Islam or Shiism, because, the true guidance is God's guidance.

Link, that to me sounds like a judgement against this Quran verse.

45:23 "Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?"

A person runs a great risk in thinking they have the answers direct from Allah, we are human and in need of the Mediator between Allah and man.

Thus as investigate truth asked, where in the Quran does it say it interprets itself?

If it does not, the interpretation is most likely from one's own mind and the verse above is the warning.

Regards Tony

 

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Thus as investigate truth asked, where in the Quran does it say it interprets itself?

Suratal Fusilat, from the beginning for example.

 

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This is part of a book I'm writing but I thought I would share it:

The divisions that taken other nations are beginning to take root in the society. For the future, and for the present, the leader of the Shiites delivers this speech:

When a problem is put before anyone of them he passes judgement on it from his imagination. When exactly the same problem is placed before another of them he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their Allah is One (and the same), their Prophet is one (and the same), their Book (the Qur’an) is one (and the same)!

Is it that Allah ordered them to differ and they obeyed Him? Or He prohibited them from it but they disobeyed Him? Or (is it that) Allah sent an incomplete Faith and sought their help to complete it? Or they are His partners in the affairs, so that it is their share of duty to pronounce and He has to agree? Or is it that Allah the Glorified sent a perfect faith but the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over (to the people)? The fact is that Allah the Glorified says:

We have not neglected anything in the Book (Qur’an) . . . (6:38),

and in it is a ‘clarification of everything’ And He says that one part of the Qur’an verifies another part and that there is no divergence in it as He says:

And if it had been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepancy. (4:82)

Indeed, the outside of the Qur’an is wonderful, and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its darkness (plural form) cannot be cleared except through itself.

This sermon shows the differences arose and the 1st Successor comments on them. First condemnation is passing a judgement not on knowledge but imagination. The Quran also forbids attributing God what we do not know. Another person placed with another, they come with an opposite verdict. This means they can’t all be correct. Then the chief that appointed them confirms all their verdicts. This is exactly how Taqlid is done today. They differ but it’s accepted that we can follow any of them. Obviously, the chief appointing them didn’t want to say both judgments are true, rather, he is saying which ever one you follow it doesn’t matter, for they are “attempting” to follow God and his Messenger.

Then the first Successors begins with some rhetorical questions. God didn’t order them to differ rather we see in Quran, unity upon Quran and Sunnah is the advice, and not to differ. The notion that God wants us to differ and accepts the differences, is a notion we hold today. But the Quran has in fact commanded the opposite and said without understanding (Fiqh) our hearts will be divided even if people may think we are united.

The rope of God is meant to be a source of unity, but when it becomes a source of conflict and division, it’s obviously not guiding. So that poses the next question.

Or is it that God sent an incomplete faith? Certainly, God has sent a guidance and way to unite on guidance, so if we aren’t following that guidance, it’s due to rebellion and insincerity on our part.

The Leader shows then a more sinister intention in all this. He asks, that if they are in fact partners with God in the affair, and this goes to a verse in the 42nd chapter of Quran. The leader and guide showing that people who follow such leaders in fact, are associating with God heedlessly.

The Leader continues and then advices on the role of the Sunnah, he says or is it God sent a perfect religion, but the Prophet didn’t convey it and fell short of manifesting it?

He then refutes all these rhetorical questions and shows in fact, the Quran has an amazing quality of guiding humans through all their differences and it’s implied with the last reference to the Prophet, that the Sunnah compliments it and provides insight to it.

The Captain and Navigator of the ship of Salvation explains, that different parts of Quran explain different parts.

The last line is the most significant phrase for the purposes of the paradox. Its darkness which is in plural form, mean all the type of darkness which is a hint to the verse 3:7 and what is meant by ambiguity from it is to be cleared through itself.

And the Quran clarifies itself, but through the help of Ahlulbayt (as). The Sunnah of the Messenger was complimenting the Quran as it was dynamically built.

And here while we should provide hadiths to clarify Quran, we must prove at the end Quranic signs and insights by Quran insights, since hadiths can always be denied.

But as anyone can talk a bunch of nonsense about Quran any right interpretation must be supported by hadiths as well. When hadiths are shown there is weight to the words and explanation, and it becomes easier to see it in Quran.

 

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By the way 4:82 means all clear signs won't contradict other parts of the Quran but have verification. This means will they not reflect over the Quran, if their reflection reflects over unclarity from Iblis, it will be contradicted by Quran, anything from other then God in interpretation will be contradicted by Quran. This means, the Quran, conflicts with every misinterpretation from Iblis, and all that is from God than is not contradicted by Quran as the sole interpretation possibly left. This means there is only one valid interpretation by Quran by the way it is, if they ever reflect and their interpretation is not from God, God says they will find not just one or two, but many contradictions in the Quran to that which is not from God.

This is why Imam Ali (as) uses it to say, that Quran verifies each other parts, they contextualize each other and refute all possible views not from God. This is why, the Quran advises to only rely on clear insights at the same time, said deeply reflect. Because the Quran is structured from one aware and the signs are clear, then explained from God who is aware and we are to ask the family of the reminder yes, but verify their words per Quran.

They go together as one rope.

 

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And you have to built on clarity and clear insights from it, otherwise, it's subject to fabrications of ahadith that contradict it.

 

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حم {1}
[Yusufali 41:1] Ha Mim:
تَنْزِيلٌ مِنَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ {2}
[Yusufali 41:2] A Revelation from (Allah), Most Gracious, Most Merciful;-
كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ {3}
[Yusufali 41:3] A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

And in beginning in Suratal Hud, it says "which signs are made clear and then explained in detail from One who is Wise, Aware"

The Sunnah is supposed to help, but it's not protected from fabrications. It's the Quran that protects the Sunnah and Sunnah that protects the Quran together, they protect each other, but only when clear signs from each are followed and we don't hold on to ambiguity from either. Proofs are needed to be held on to.

 

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11:1 with 41:1 and other verses show the possessors of understanding will attain much understanding to the Quran, and they gain explanations from Quran and insights from it, and witness the exalted book that is from the original book revealed to Mohammad, but no one really knows the full interpretation but God and the firmly rooted in knowledge. Thus God knows, is emphasized, to rely on Quran, and the firmly rooted in knowledge, to rely on the Sunnah. But together. Go thirsty to both.

But not going to it to interpret the Quran with a diseased of insincerity to God where as we wish to confirm are biases, but sincerely, the Quran says, if we have an interpretation we reflected not from God or from the Seher of Iblis, God will then verifies his signs through Quran and Ahlulbayt and clarify, and we will find much contradictions in the Quran from that which is from our ignorance or Iblis' forces magic.

The Quran is layered in a way that doors open other doors, the keys open other keys to other doors to other doors. It's a rope extending to the lowest earth connecting to the highest realms. It's a guidance to be sought and relied on but on the clear insights it bestows per it's term. And the family of reminder know what to say and how to compliment.

Ali doesn't misguide a madman so let alone people with ability to confirm the truth on more sane grounds. This is the reality I witness of the relationship of Ali and his family with respect to the interpretation of Quran.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You don't even know what you're talking about.
Both the Torah and Bible contain verses where it says that there will be a prophet whith the name 'Muhammad'
And they changed those verses, and a lot more.
And by the way, is there a Bible right now? I don't think so. What you call a bible are words of Math,...
So where is the Bible that does contain the words of God?!

So why would a Hebrew text have an Arabic name Muhammad? Do you think the Jews removed the name before or after Muhammad appeared?

Plus: before that Muhammad became a prophet, when he was a kid, he travelled with his grandfather to a certain place for business. During their travel they went to a rabi, and he knew that Muhammad peace be upon him is a prophet, because of a lot of signs. One of them was a birthmark on his back. Another one was a wonder, a cloud was covering the prophet from the hot sun outside the house of the rabi. Also he knew that the prophet will be an arab from mekka ...

So how does that relate to the Jews removing the word Muhammad from the Torah?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If I may agree that the Gospel has been corrupted.. because of man's teachings..

Let's look back at the time of king James.
King James chosen out about 40 men that know the languages of the Hebrew and Greek and had these men to translate the Hebrew and Greek into English.
So what we have is what is called
The King James version 1611 and the year the Hebrew and Greek being translation into English.
Because the Roman Catholic Church did not like for the people to have free excess
to the scriptures...without a priest telling them what they wanted the people to know.
So the Roman Catholic Church came out with their own version of the bible.
So here is the kick off.where all the other Bible's of man's teachings corrupted the bible.
So now there are so many copies of the Bible.
But yet the 1611 of king James is still the number one bible sold.
All because man's teachings has not of yet corrupted it.
But man has come out with other
king James version of the 1611..
But what we have is man trying to incorporate their words and teachings into the king James bible.
Take for instance what people call the
Rapture..but yet there is no where in the Bible that speaks anything about the Rapture..but yet man's teaching tries it's hardest to incorporate the Rapture theory into the king James 1611 version.

This is most likely what Muhammad was referring to how man's teachings corrupted the Gospels and Torah.
Unto which Muhammad was right about.
Then you have people in those churches that hasn't a clue or idea what the Gospels or the Torah actually does say themselves.
They set there and let some man tell them what the Gospels will say and the people are so gullible they take it as so.
All because people themselves have no clue or idea what the Gospels or Torah actually does say themselves.

One would think that with all the technology of how to translate Hebrew and Greek into English.. people would take the advantage of this technology.
But as it is.. people would rather let a man that is just as much of a sinner as they are tell them what the Gospels and Torah is saying..instead of at least trying to read them for themselves. So that they know whether or not they are being told the truth in and about the Gospels and Torah.

Keeping in mind that Muhammad’s ministry was from 610-632 AD, the Torah and Gospel He refers to wouldn’t have been the KJV Bible. You may well be correct that the first English translation introduces distortions based on how Christianity was understood by the Catholic Church at that time. However the question is did Muhammad consider the available Torah and Gospel corrupt at that time and if so why? Muhammad refers to both the Gospel and Torah on many occasions within the Quran and speaks with great reverence about the works as well as Jesus and Moses. There is no passage where he is critical or dismissive of the Torah, Gospel, Jesus or Moses.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's was not match with their desires and hopes.

Don't understand your point here.

My point is about religious prejudice and racism. We should avoid portraying one group based on race or religion as being so perverse they would corrupt their sacred writings yet portray another group as being less perverse that they wouldn’t act in such a manner. Your view sets Muslims above Christians and Jews in regards moral standards. Besides that where is the evidence the Jews and Christians corrupted the Torah and Gospel?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes. And there is a day when a portion of every group that disbelieved will be resurrected as well, known as the period of Raja'a.

Is there evidence of an historic time when people have been physically resurrected from the dead? Is this an unprecedented event you speak of, never witnessed by humanity in bygone ages?