Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

[wizanda]

Quran doesnt say that brother.

2:79 So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a 'small price'. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

The terminology 'Small Price' is a continual metaphor in the Quran, and Bible together: they paid 30 pieces of silver for the price of Yeshua, which divorced Israel (Zechariah 11, Isaiah 50:1), placing the Curse of Moses on the Jews...

Therefore they sold their covenant for a 'Small Price', where the Pharisee then made up books after denying the Curse, and rewriting prophecy (John, Paul, and Simon).

3:187 And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a 'small price' for it; so evil is that which they buy.

3:77 Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a 'small price' will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment.

In my opinion.

 

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By the way the Quran in translation is as corrupted as any other divine book. Until we correct the Sunnah and interpretation and let Quran interpret itself and be the utmost authority and believe in it as it should be, Islam will remain a false religion among false religions.

 

[firedragon]

2:79 So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a 'small price'. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

The terminology 'Small Price' is a continual metaphor in the Quran, and Bible together: they paid 30 pieces of silver for the price of Yeshua, which divorced Israel (Zechariah 11, Isaiah 50:1), placing the Curse of Moses on the Jews...

Therefore they sold their covenant for a 'Small Price', where the Pharisee then made up books after denying the Curse, and rewriting prophecy (John, Paul, and Simon).

3:187 And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a 'small price' for it; so evil is that which they buy.

3:77 Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a 'small price' will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment.

In my opinion.

I think I quoted that verse a million times to say that the Quran doesn’t say the Bible is corrupted.

it says people wrote stuff and claimed it was Gods word. Plainly.

 

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I think I quoted that verse a million times to say that the Quran doesn’t say the Bible is corrupted.

it says people wrote stuff and claimed it was Gods word. Plainly.

Brother the problem with them, is that language allows room for metaphors, and so even if the context of the phrase in Quran is clearly not a metaphor, but has evidence it's meant literally, they cling to metaphor.

Quran did talk about God reviving the dead lands as in bring spiritual life for example through revival Messengers like Mohammad (s), but this was not due to away with the day of judgment verses for example.

It's either they don't understand how language works or they are super playful with Quran or they are on some sort of CIA pay roll or something. Don't waste too much time taking Bahais seriously.

 

[wizanda]

I think I quoted that verse a million times to say that the Quran doesn’t say the Bible is corrupted.

it says people wrote stuff and claimed it was Gods word. Plainly.

The Bible was canonized, and then Muhammad was taught it had become corrupted; the Bible tells us this the same, that the Roman Empire will corrupt the Message, and misrepresent the teachings.

The books that were added all became one book called the Bible; before the Bible was canonized, there were additional books available to buy copies of.

In my opinion.

 

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I want to say, the Quran says believe in the book revealed before. It doesn't say what exactly is the Gospels (Injeel) or Torah. However, when I read the Torah, I knew most of it is from God. And I know the Gospels most of it is from God (not Paul parts obviously) but the Quran also verifies more of the infancy Gospels than the agreed upon one. For example, the young age of Jesus, speaking in a cradle, all this in infancy gnostic gospel stuff. It's not that the other gospels are not true, it's that a great portion was lost in the official agreed upon one.

The Gospels were paraphrased by God to Jesus to each disciple - to interpret themselves in light of each other, and in light of the Torah before them. Mohammad is clearly in there which is why they had to make trinity, trinity was the only way to make Mohammad ambiguous - so as to make the holy spirit which was the position of Jesus emphasizing he was that, and before him John the Baptist, and now implying that is how Elijah returned as who would be the holy spirit from God guiding believers being the living star of the family of David and Aaron, until, Mohammad to be some sort of mysterious god entity along with the father and the son. All this is so clear to me, it's vividly clear. And the talk of the Torah about Enoch and Elijah is all to verify Jesus ascending and coming back. Jesus is not the only one coming back, so is Elijah, so is Enoch, so is Khidr, so is other chosen ones we don't know but God kept them alive like he kept Enoch alive.

The Torah shows those set by God (Seth) are the names of God (Samuel means name of God) by which the evil idols among humanity took for themselves and lead astray generations, which cause the corruption of the generations leading to Noah. So the Torah is about restoring the authority to God's chosen ones, and showed the true Authorities and Kings of God like Abraham, like Ishmael, and the Twelve Princes promised from a King from his offspring, which is Mohammad and the Twelve Successors. The twelve sons of Ishmael were a way to preserve this from corruption, just as the twelve sons of Jacob along with Joseph, were a way to hide the parable of the Twelve chosen successors of Abraham and the position of Sarah, which alludes to a constant number of Twelve with respect to successions. And the Twelve Lion Kings of Solomon kingdom in statues represents his predecessors inclusive of Moses and successors inclusive of Jesus. The Quran verifies the statues but doesn't go to detail. But if you read the Quranic themes of twelve branches (asbat), Captains, rivers, and ways (ummas) and luminaries (Shahr), and you keep that in mind, it's obviously verifying the significance of Twelve Lion Statues of Solomon.

The Twelve and theme of Aaron's chosen righteous offspring, and the true position of Aaron, Quran corrects all that the Torah has been translated and changed to hide that but there are still enough evidence pertaining to it.

 

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The Gospels to be short are emphasizing the position of the anointed Kings appointed by God but God emphasizes and singles out Jesus first, but also alludes to John, and all other stars of the household of guidance, when Jesus says 'I am the star of the family of David'.

And the term son cannot be applied in Arabic but should be translated as Muqarab (one drawn close) as that would be the proper translation in Arabic because people didn't metaphorically use as that in Arabic.

And Jesus was God's only close one in the open among the people at that time, and this what "only begotten son" means, and you just have to recall all the verses about exalted ones and them being sons of God in the Torah and Gospels, and it's clear. It means, I am the chosen way from God at this time, no one can come to God but through me.

All this allusion, then when he talks about Mohammad and shows it's a definite, as Jesus is leaving them, and they will have a holy spirit, but not a guide in the open, but he is referring to Elijah as that is how John being instance of the holy spirit like Elijah is proof Elijah came back because that is why Elijah is alive, and Jesus was leaving earth, and so Elijah who came back is to take the position of Leading people back to God through channeling God's light to believers. And all this way to say, there is definitely going to come Mohammad who is also an instance of the holy spirit and will clarify this position to humanity of the kings appointed by God just I emphasized on my position which proved Moses, Aaron and the chosen offspring of Aaron position among humans.

And Mariam the sister of Harun and Moses, was exalted and chosen, and far above what the Jews say about her. This is why God named the mother of Jesus Mariam among many reasons, and they belittled her in the same way they belittled Mariam who the Mana was brought to children of Israel through. The chosen ones like Aaron and Mariam the sister of Aaron and Moses, don't go astray nor anger God like the Jews made it out to be. And Saul/Talut is exalted and chosen and far above that the Jews say.

Gospels show all the chosen kings anointed by God were like Jesus exalted, holy, pure and beyond the intellect of people.

And the word Mariam is not Hebrew, but of the Pharaoh's people dialect, and means something different then translated in Hebrew.

 

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Also Mohammad and his family are clear in the Torah, right from the prayer of Moses' regarding his tongue by the one God will send and the talk of Ahlulbayt of Abraham, and the kings alluded to by the King and the Twelve Princes from offspring of Ishmael. As for Hajar, obviously, Abraham is far above taking slaves, and this is a false tale, and banishment all a false tale, to change the covenant that is still evident about Mohammad and his family from the offspring of Ishmael which means "God hears" and is allusion to the prayer made by Abraham.

 

[firedragon]

The Bible was canonized, and then Muhammad was taught it had become corrupted; the Bible tells us this the same, that the Roman Empire will corrupt the Message, and misrepresent the teachings.

The books that were added all became one book called the Bible; before the Bible was canonized, there were additional books available to buy copies of.

In my opinion.

Quran doesnt say that.

 

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The two Mariams and Harun, Samuel, Talut, Dawood, Sulaiman, Elyas, Alyasa, Dul-kifl, Imran, Zakariya, Yahya and Jesus are with Moses' as his equals in rank and blessed position with God. They are a household who the destiny of the nation under them had to hold on to.

God raises in ranks who he pleases, but also, put's together them in groups, as for the groups, the chosen households by God, they ascend together just as their mission with respect to each other is that they should be honored and loved equally by their people.

God blesses them together, and it's not known who is more beloved by God, Jesus or Yahya according to some Shiite hadiths, because, God blesses them and hides their differences, and they ascend together.

The first is not proven to be more better then the 2nd, just by being first, and not the last better then the 11th successor, so neither Moses is proven more better then Aaron nor Jesus better the John. All this is conjecture, while God said, see them all as equally important and hence don't separate them from one another, and don't differentiate between them as you would perish and go astray. Hold all of them together, after the founder, as twelve luminaries, paths, lights, ways, branches of the same root, and see them as one family, who from one perspective are each names of God and ways of God but from another perspective, they are all together formed as the name of God, path, and way.

As for their ranks, God blesses the households chosen by him together. One family is replaced by a better family in rank and guidance, but don't differentiate between the positions of 1, 2,3..(numbers between)..10, 11, 12 by conjecture, they all important and their missions as important as one another.

You don't know their rank and who is better, only God knows, and has chosen for them to ascend with another as a family unit.

 

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Quran doesnt say that.

They did misrepresent and hide what they had of the Torah per Quran, but this doesn't mean all they had of the Torah was from God. There are other verses that talk about attributing to God what is not from the book and they don't know is from God, and hence, woe to those who write by their hands and attribute it to God what is not from God.

The fact is the is clear, they didn't have knowledge of the proper interpretation of the Torah and hid a lot of what is beautiful and meaningful in it. Also, they made it to be stories all geared to making Jewish people superior and better then others, while, the stories in there manifest guidance from God that continues and will reach a peak to the whole world in the words of Moses' "by the one who you will send" and it's then the tongue of Moses' will no longer have a knot and included in that is the knot on the tongue of all Messengers and the constriction on their hearts.

And from the talk of Seth, to Samuel, and the Hebrew meaning of Adam, Seth, and other names like Samuel, the Torah is beautiful and guides to the truth, but there is what contradicts it's clear theme, and the translations and corruption of it is all geared to make it all about Jewish people rather then God's way of the past to the present and how God tries to guide humans time and time again.

And Abraham's family is emphasized to make way for the chosen righteous offspring of Aaron who all were Messengers and Kings appointed by God to navigate the believers on the ship of salvation. And that a clear designation of the princes from a King to come from the offspring of Ishmael and the kingship is the type Abraham had.

The Quran talks about how they made beautiful lessons from the destruction of people down to all the minute details of guidance, to be just stories, no longer relevant to today.

The Muslims do similar thing to Quran and make the destruction of the cities and warnings therein have no relevance to the future.

While to the believers who fear God and follow clear signs- they know all the Quran states has a relevance of dire importance and none of it iterates as a story is just a story of the past.

That said, the Torah contradicts itself on so many levels. Talut being one of them. Saul is said to become corrupted by an evil spirit and jealous of David. Disgusting attribution to God that no way God chooses an unjust King to lead humans nor one who can be lead astray to evil.

Ask Jehova witnesses who don't believe in trinity, can Jesus return and become evil. They will see far above that is God's choice of the savior. But ask them about Saul, all of a sudden God's choice of an anointed king can go wrong!

 

[firedragon]

They did misrepresent and hide what they had of the Torah per Quran, but this doesn't mean all they had of the Torah was from God. There are other verses that talk about attributing to God what is not from the book and they don't know is from God, and hence, woe to those who write by their hands and attribute it to God what is not from God.

I must agree with you because you make sense.

But I would argue that what people call by the name Torah is not "The Torah". They have named it as such. There is enough internal evidence to that.

But that's a whole other topic so completely irrelevant.

My whole point is that the whole thread is from the perspective of religion. According to Islam, there is no indication the Bible is the Torah, no document says that. So we are only making assumptions. That's my whole point.

 

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The Quran doesn't even affirm bani-Israel all are biologically linked to either Jacob or Abraham. It says "offspring of who we carried with Noah", and it becomes clear when reflected about the meaning of Bani is more in line of being followers, in the term of Abraham and Talut "then is from me". The from means born spiritually out of the light of that Guide. And similarly, the offspring of Iblis, is to be an illegitimate born, and those who hate the household of revelation are all born from Iblis and the cursed tree of hell as they relied on it and sought water from it and hence will perish by it. That and the guidance and love they turned away from due to envy and hatred to God's chosen ones who he favored humans regarding.

Same with Bani-Adam, bani-Adam is a term that Allah (swt) uses for anyone who believes the first humans had a guide among them, and that we are created as humans and not evolving from apes. This included polytheists who believed in guidance in their own way, but God wanted to use this concept, to show guidance is always here. But it also emphasized Prophets that were from the offspring of Adam, emphasizing on the offspring of Adam and if all humans were biologically linked to Adam, this would be meaningless to emphasize that God chose to put Prophets in his offspring.

The human race is one people but it's genetically impossible all to link biologically to Adam and Hawra, who are the first of the chosen humans and were a guidance to humans in the beginning. They fell from being deceived and nearly disbelieved in their Lord by deception but quickly realized the evil of their wanting to compete to become of the exalted ones or the everlasting kings or of the authority that they saw the exalted ones who are Mohammad and his family have. And Mohammad and his family, it was not known, they would become humans, till Adam was chosen and it became known they would take form among humans and become human. Angels thought they would become Angels, and so Iblis who was an Angel, saw the nature of humans and said how is this possible. The Angels as he was the first Jinn and an Angels are all exalted saints of Jinn, and there are chosen among Angels for missions of God and messages and other roles, but, they also questioned God's voice and the veils and nearly disbelieved in God in the trial of Adam. Iblis was the only one to not prostrate and took pride of his race of being Jinn, and then lost his rank as an Angel. But he deceived himself so much that he believes his misguidance is freeing people from the false sky aimed by Ahlulbayt and believes he ought to be worshipped by his delusions in falsehood. He deceives himself as a liberator while in reality, he wishes in secret that he doesn't even realize to bring people to hell. His sarcasm to Ahlulbayt and the voice of God just shows how insolent he is towards God's greatest signs. And if the highest signs and veils will not connect one to God, then nothing will, and Iblis creates his own reality and leads astray. He doesn't care for deceiving himself or others, anything, for his cause. Ends justifies the means, and still he believes he can take over heaven till this day.

Careful, and believe in the sustenance and power of God in miracles when shown, and don't accuse of such power to be from other then God. When the Mahdi comes, all fiction stories, and media, and the most best stories, already has incepted people to believe he is an evil sorcerer. Convince yourself that miracles are proofs from God that he trusts an being from himself and the power is directly from God as God says "You did not throw when you threw but God threw", which was a miracle Mohammad performed in battle, and convince yourself of this because Quran says "thus no Messenger was sent but was accused of being a sorcerer or possessed" and possessed means demons perform the miracles and the person is truthful but doesn't realize.

The order of the heavens and the earth, the authority, God establishes it, and only respites the oppressors on earth temporarily, then when the days of God come, the oppressors perish.

 

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I must agree with you because you make sense.

But I would argue that what people call by the name Torah is not "The Torah". They have named it as such. There is enough internal evidence to that.

But that's a whole other topic so completely irrelevant.

My whole point is that the whole thread is from the perspective of religion. According to Islam, there is no indication the Bible is the Torah, no document says that. So we are only making assumptions. That's my whole point.

I agree. The Quran however is a commentary on the Torah and Gospels, and so when you keep in mind what is in Quran and you read what is today known as that, a lot of the Torah is confirmed to be from God the same way you can see the truth in Quran. Same with the Gospels.

But they are corrupted to a large degree and it's easy to see where, why and how by the Quranic commentary and corrections.

 

[firedragon]

I agree. The Quran however is a commentary on the Torah and Gospels, and so when you keep in mind what is in Quran and you read what is today known as that, a lot of the Torah is confirmed to be from God the same way you can see the truth in Quran. Same with the Gospels.

But they are corrupted to a large degree and it's easy to see where, why and how by the Quranic commentary and corrections.

I must agree.

 

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Also, Quran confirms a lot of the infancy Gospels, more then, the official Gospels.

 

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I must agree.

It's easy to see this and the Bahais here are not properly representing their official stance. I went and searched, and Shokh Efendi who is deemed an authority in the religion, commented on Baha'allah words and said, he means over all the Gospels are from God and the Torah still has a lot of truth, but not that all of it is from God and that there is differences between Quran and Bible, and where there is, to prefer the Quran.

I went directly on the Bahai sites to see if what they say is what their teachings really are.

I don't know what the agenda of these people are here, when they don't even represent properly what their authorities say.

So what they are presenting is not even the official Bahai view as Shokh Efendi clarified this matter, and even gave examples of where Quran disagrees with the Bible.

 

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I even going to check later, if their authorities confirmed miracles or rejected them as metaphors. I can't trust these people here to be honest. It looks like they here just to argue even if their own authorities don't say what they say.

 

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Also, Baha'allah mispresented the Muslims and their official stance, if what Shokh Efendi interpret his words are true. That is, most Muslims of the past till present, and their scholars, took the same stance as me pertaining to the Bible or actually went further in confirmation of the Bible then me.

In fact, they verified too much of the Bible by how much they wanted to verify of it, that they clang to hadiths that were really just teachings of Jewish people that crept their way to Islam by how much Muslims were not careful in distinguishing the Quran from the Bible.

In fact, a lot of what we see as the Sunnah is confirmed in the Bible but rejected by Quran.

 

[firedragon]

It's easy to see this and the Bahais here are not properly representing their official stance. I went and searched, and Shokh Efendi who is deemed an authority in the religion, commented on Baha'allah words and said, he means over all the Gospels are from God and the Torah still has a lot of truth, but not that all of it is from God and that there is differences between Quran and Bible, and where there is, to prefer the Quran.

I went directly on the Bahai sites to see if what they say is what their teachings really are.

I don't know what the agenda of these people are here, when they don't even represent properly what their authorities say.

So what they are presenting is not even the official Bahai view as Shokh Efendi clarified this matter, and even gave examples of where Quran disagrees with the Bible.

Brother. I did not ever condemn anything in the Bahai faith, yet. I am still learning about it.

But i have to admit that what you said above is true.

For some time I read through several Bahai scriptures. But only one i studied. Others I just read through. I read the Kithab al akdhas. I mean I studied it in detail, along with the Arabic version of it.

Hmm, but I actually do not wish to discuss any of that here bro. It's irrelevant. So I will concede at this place. But I agree with you.

Peace.,