roger1440
I do stuff
You didn't hear it from the Bible. It's not there.
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Did Sodom and Gommorah deserve to get zapped?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
Augustus
…
To be fair to God, the people of Sodom were trying to gang rape his Angels. I've no problem with gang rapists getting smote.
19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Not sure what the people of Gommorah did to earn their smiting though.
19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Not sure what the people of Gommorah did to earn their smiting though.
roger1440
I do stuff
The author of Genesis never specifically mentions why Sodom was destroyed. All he says Sodom was “wicked”. Why did Lot offer his daughters to the mob outside his door? The answer lies in Lots very own words.
Lot never mentions anything about sex with the angels. Lot was obligated to protect his guests from harm’s way. Hospitality is very important to the author of Genesis. We see a similar story with Abraham. When Abraham sees angels the very first thing he does is to tell his wife to prepare some food. There is an underlining theme that connects both stories. This theme is generosity and hospitality. The very ancient Jews were nomadic. Their very own survival was dependent upon the hospitality of others. Without, they would have died long ago in the desert or where ever they came from. The people of Sodom were very selfish. They only thought of themselves. “What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours.”
“Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." (Genesis 19:8)
Lot never mentions anything about sex with the angels. Lot was obligated to protect his guests from harm’s way. Hospitality is very important to the author of Genesis. We see a similar story with Abraham. When Abraham sees angels the very first thing he does is to tell his wife to prepare some food. There is an underlining theme that connects both stories. This theme is generosity and hospitality. The very ancient Jews were nomadic. Their very own survival was dependent upon the hospitality of others. Without, they would have died long ago in the desert or where ever they came from. The people of Sodom were very selfish. They only thought of themselves. “What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours.”
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
The word "sodomy" and "sodomize" only obtained their stigmatized meanings in the English language based on the name of the city, no? That's what I always figured - that the word "sodomize" as verb was coined because the city was named "Sodom".
Also, when thinking about whether or not the destruction was "deserved", I'm of two minds on the subject:
1. If God exists, is omnipotent and therefore entirely above reproach by humankind, and He made the decision to destroy something - then yes - that was the "correct" course of action, by definition of who God is and what is within His purview.
2. Considering that there were innocents also in those cities - as there are bound to be in any generally populated area - God's action could easily be likened to war-time bombings by the governments of today's age that target "the bad guys" but end up also taking out some civilians. So, as to the moral aspect of God's action from a human perspective, I would say that the morality of the action is questionable at best - and that no, not everyone within the "bomb radius" deserved what they got.
Also, when thinking about whether or not the destruction was "deserved", I'm of two minds on the subject:
1. If God exists, is omnipotent and therefore entirely above reproach by humankind, and He made the decision to destroy something - then yes - that was the "correct" course of action, by definition of who God is and what is within His purview.
2. Considering that there were innocents also in those cities - as there are bound to be in any generally populated area - God's action could easily be likened to war-time bombings by the governments of today's age that target "the bad guys" but end up also taking out some civilians. So, as to the moral aspect of God's action from a human perspective, I would say that the morality of the action is questionable at best - and that no, not everyone within the "bomb radius" deserved what they got.
Tumah
Veteran Member
In Jewish sources, that is considered his only redeeming quality and the only trait he learned from Abraham.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
The carnage of the Israelites in Canaan was no different from all the carnage caused by other groups looking for a place to settle. That was the time for the migrations. And you like to compare it with a "dearth of such carnage in the NT." Not so fast! You need to read more History especially of the Church to understand the real meaning of carnage. Millions of Jewish lives got murdered by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and last but not least, the Holocaust. That's what carnage is. And what makes it worse is that the time of the Church was not a time of migrations but of a real demonstration of human nature without Law.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
I think that the high rate of divorces is based on the death of passion between the couples. Divorces almost never happened while married couples still love one another. As love goes out the window, the hand of divorce starts knocking at the door.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
"Angels visited Lot!" That couldn't be literal. Angels are spiritual emanations visible only in the dream/visions of the prophets if you read Numbers 12:6. Therefore, I find quite obvious that Prophet Abraham was having a dream and in his dream, the catastrophic event in Sodom & Gomorrah was included. This does not dispense with the natural disaster in Sodom & Gomorrah.
The whole area of Siddim, now the Dead Sea, which included both Sodom & Gomorrah was dotted with bitumen pits all around. (Genesis 14:10) As the sun rose upon the earth to the point when the time of the day was the hottest, a sulfurous fire went on out of the bitumen pits all over the valley and very fast, the whole area was on fire. Of course, it was helped by a huge battle being fought by 4 kings against 5 at the time. (Genesis 14:1-3) Hence, the fire was intensified. (Genesis 19:23) I take that as a work of nature but intensified by man. So, let's not be too ready to blame HaShem because, 5 nations were fighting each other in the valley of Siddim and caused most of the destruction.
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roger1440
I do stuff
So I'm on the right track? I'm only using the verses themselves as my source.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Lol, 'right track'.
I'm just saying that in Jewish sources, he wasn't considered a particularly righteous person. Its just that he had one good quality that he learned from Abraham to bring guests to his home.
roger1440
I do stuff
It would seem since God sent angels or messengers to him, Lot must have made the cut off point of being a good guy.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Or, the merit of accepting guests was what saved him (theoretically the angels could have just said, "Hi, Lot, let's go", but instead they chose to stick around or maybe test Lot so that he'd have a merit by which to be saved). Or Abraham's merit works long distance.
Who's taking them literally?
Just as we can consider the moral message of, say, Aesop's fables without believing in the literal existence of talking animals, we can consider the moral message of the Sodom & Gomorrah story without accepting it as literally true, too.
I know it's just a story, so maybe we're supposed to suspend our disbelief a bit on the details, but I still have problems with the idea that ALL the men of the city were trying to rape two people (or angels). How big is this city?
... and that's even before we get into the moral problems around killing the women and children over the actions of the men.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with homosexuality which is normal. Maybe the Biblical god is a gay in denial!
How! Like Paul and his thorn in the flesh? It seems to me Paul was struggling with Repressed Homosexual feelings if you read Romans 7:8-25. That's what the text in Romans 7:8-25 reflects.
I believe Sodom and Gomorrah deserved the destruction God brought upon them. The depth of their depravity is evident by the Genesis account. "the men of Sodʹom from boy to old man, all of them—surrounded the house in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: “Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we may have sex with them."(Genesis 19:4,5) Jude 7 explains; "In the same manner, Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." Their despicable conduct and Jehovah's reaction is a sobering evidence that God will not permit the violence and immorality practiced today to go unpunished, IMO.
Don't you remember when Abraham was making a deal with God about if he found even ten righteous in the city he wouldn't destroy it? There weren't even ten righteous in it.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Many do. Look at the huge tsunami that hit Asia ten years or so back. Many preachers were quick to suggest that it was due to their homosexuality. Blaming God for natural catastrophes is pretty common. The irony is that we love the mountains, but the very same forces that created the mountains, also created that tsunami. They are two sides of the very same coin. Do we have beautiful mountain ranges because of homosexuality? Just as much as they are to blame for the tsunamis they create.
I meant "who in this thread?"
You said "why take these scriptures literally?" to the participants of this thread; presumably, this means there was someone in this thread who you thought was taking them literally and you were asking them why.
IOW, who were you directing your question to?