Did the Babylonians invent Judaism?

[Godwilling]

There is zero evidence of a dramitic change due to that culture you could pin on Mesopotamians as being the complete originator for said people's beliefs

Unless, of course, you take into account the fact that many people in Palestine spoke Aramaic (Mesopotamians), the fact that the beliefs of the Hebrew located their ancestors in Mesopotamia, and the fact that Ezra, a Babylonian Jew, wrote two books that form part of the Tora, and which are partly written in Aramaic.

Not only that hebrews loved their yahweh, had Mesopotamians forced a religion on them, you would have a different deity well known in Mesopotamian mythology.

There is plenty historical evidence that the Mesopotamians had a great influence on the Hebrew. Language is more than words, because language contains social norms and other cultural influences. There is much historical evidence and Scriptural evidence that the Mesopotamians influenced the Jews. Do you have any evidence that the influence did not extend to religious influence?

remember Mesopotamians have less mytery then hebrews becuase the had advanced writing and recording skills, that took hebrews hundreds of years to develop and evolve.

I don't know of any mysteries. I know about history, pre-history, and fiction. Do you know of some Mesopotamian and Hebrew mysteries?

 

[outhouse]

Do you have any evidence that the influence did not extend to religious influence?

It did extend to relgion. But influnce is all that is there.


the fact that hebrews took mesopotamians legends and reworked them to give them their own unique hebrew theology IS ALL that needs to be said on this.


Yoiur barking up the wrong tree, and have provided not a single shred of evidence pointing to what your guessing at.

 

[Godwilling]

It did extend to relgion. But influnce is all that is there.


the fact that hebrews took mesopotamians legends and reworked them to give them their own unique hebrew theology IS ALL that needs to be said on this.

That sounds alot like what I am saying. Good! I am glad we agree:clap

Yoiur barking up the wrong tree, and have provided not a single shred of evidence pointing to what your guessing at.

What? Are you changing your mind about your previous statement?:areyoucra

 

[outhouse]

That sounds alot like what I am saying. Good! I am glad we agree:clap



What? Are you changing your mind about your previous statement?:areyoucra

All i'm stating is this

influence = yes

invent = no

 

[Levite]

Unless, of course, you take into account the fact that many people in Palestine spoke Aramaic (Mesopotamians), the fact that the beliefs of the Hebrew located their ancestors in Mesopotamia, and the fact that Ezra, a Babylonian Jew, wrote two books that form part of the Tora, and which are partly written in Aramaic.

Whether Ezra was responsible for any of the books of the Torah is debatable-- though it would be safe to say that he was almost certainly the Redactor of the Five Books.

However, none of the Five Books of the Torah are written partly in Aramaic. They are written in Hebrew. Of the entire Tanach, in fact, only Daniel is written in Aramaic, and Job has a fair number of Aramaisms in it. The other books are entirely written in Hebrew.

 

[Oryonder]

Genesis, like the rest of the Torah, and most of the Tanakh, was written in Hebrew. It wasn't even translated into Aramaic until the first century CE.

Jews have never believed in an angel called Lucifer, and mainstream Judaism never embraced the idea of fallen angels at all (holding instead that angels have no free will, and are thus incapable of rebellion, or even dissatisfaction).

Abraham is described as coming from Ur Kasdim (Ur of the Chaldees, usually associated with Uruk), which was Mesopotamian, but predates both Babylon and the Aramaic language.

And, of course, Judaism had been in existence for somewhere between five hundred to a thousand years before the Babylonians conquered the Land of Israel and brought the Jewish People into Exile.

There are ways in which Babylonian thought and culture did influence Judaism-- some quite significantly. But they did not invent Judaism, or even reinvent it. That is simply an insupportable hypothesis.

A couple of points. The first is that Ur- Uruk is one of the most ancient of cities.

This was the land of the Sumerians who had the oldest language that we know of which was proto-Elamite .. round 3500 BC. Proto Elamite has never been deciphered however Elamite can be read fluently.

Akkadian is related to Elamite and became the language of commerce all the way down to 500 BC. Literate folks would be able to speak their own language but would also know Akkadian.

The Sumerians had a time of Chaos/dark age around 2200 BC. When the dust settled the Sumarians had split into the Babylonians and the Assyrians .. both speaking the same language .. Akkadian.

Sargon of Akkad (think Akkadian) united the city states of Sumeria into the worlds first empire

The first known mention of the city of Akkad is in an inscription of Enshakushanna of Uruk, where he claims to have defeated Agade—indicating that it was in existence well before the days of Sargon of Akkad, whom the Sumerian King List claims to have built it. Akkad is mentioned once in theTanakh-Book of Genesis 10:10: And the beginning of his Nimrod's kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar (KJV)The Greek (LXX) spelling in this passage is Archad.

Sargon of Akkad (Sharru-kin = "legitimate king", possibly a title he took on gaining power; 24th century BC) defeated and captured Lugal-Zage-Si in the Battle of Uruk and conquered his empire. The earliest records in the Akkadian language date to the time of Sargon.

Abraham comes from Uruk prior to leaving and travelling to Caanan. Abraham was rich and likely educated. Abraham spoke Akkadian fluently.

The Genesis story is based at least in part on Sumerian creation myth .. especially the flood story and the Gods coming down and mating with the fair earthling maidens .. the Babylonians are descendents of the Sumerians.

Genesis is based on a Babylonian creation myth.

 

[Godwilling]

Abraham comes from Uruk prior to leaving and travelling to Caanan. Abraham was rich and likely educated. Abraham spoke Akkadian fluently.

The Genesis story is based at least in part on Sumerian creation myth .. especially the flood story and the Gods coming down and mating with the fair earthling maidens .. the Babylonians are descendents of the Sumerians.

Genesis is based on a Babylonian creation myth.

I agree with your historical facts. No doubt that your are correct. On the other hand, there is no historical evidence that Abraham existed. There is no historical evidence that any large number of people left Egypt and traveled to Israel through the Sinai Desert. It is not possible that the creation myth was brought to Israel by the Babylonians themselves?

My premise is that the Babylonians invented the creation myth and we have evidence of that. The Babylonians invaded Israel twice and we have evidence of that. Ezra was Babylonian and no one disputes his direct contributions to the Tanach. I rather think that people we know existed and that we know invaded Israel brought with them the myths we know they had.

I like to add that the English left their mark in North America, India, Pakistan, etc. and not so much the other way around. The Spaniards left their mark in parts of North America, Central America, South America, The Philippines, etc, and not the other way around. The same is true of the Greeks, Romans, French, Portuguese, etc. What are the odds that the Israelite were not influenced by their captors who even send hordes of Israelite to Babylon as slaves?

 

[Oryonder]

I agree with your historical facts. No doubt that your are correct. On the other hand, there is no historical evidence that Abraham existed. There is no historical evidence that any large number of people left Egypt and traveled to Israel through the Sinai Desert. It is not possible that the creation myth was brought to Israel by the Babylonians themselves?

My premise is that the Babylonians invented the creation myth and we have evidence of that. The Babylonians invaded Israel twice and we have evidence of that. Ezra was Babylonian and no one disputes his direct contributions to the Tanach. I rather think that people we know existed and that we know invaded Israel brought with them the myths we know they had.

I like to add that the English left their mark in North America, India, Pakistan, etc. and not so much the other way around. The Spaniards left their mark in parts of North America, Central America, South America, The Philippines, etc, and not the other way around. The same is true of the Greeks, Romans, French, Portuguese, etc. What are the odds that the Israelite were not influenced by their captors who even send hordes of Israelite to Babylon as slaves?

The question for me is not whether or not Abraham was a real figure or whether the exodus was real. What interesting to me is where these stories came from.

The idea that some God desired human sacrifice in the first place is a bit far fetched. That this God had a change of heart at the last minute is even more silly. What makes perfect sense is that when Abraham travelled from Uruk to Caanan he encountered religious practices that included human sacrifice.

Regardless of whether Abe is real or not .. if you want to deviate from religious practices that are the norm you need a good reason/justification/story.

The story of Abraham is one such justification.

 

[outhouse]

The question for me is not whether or not Abraham was a real figure or whether the exodus was real. What interesting to me is where these stories came from.

The idea that some God desired human sacrifice in the first place is a bit far fetched. That this God had a change of heart at the last minute is even more silly. What makes perfect sense is that when Abraham travelled from Uruk to Caanan he encountered religious practices that included human sacrifice.

Regardless of whether Abe is real or not .. if you want to deviate from religious practices that are the norm you need a good reason/justification/story.

The story of Abraham is one such justification.

Nope, they didnt deviate

Israeli's consisted of many different semetic speaking people of many different cultures that all migrated after the collapse of the major governments in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Canaan, and even nomadic tribes. All of which before 1200 BC had human sacrifices.

There was no unique hebrew culture early on it mirrored the migrated people in the melting pot and pottery shows little difference to Canaanite's for a few hundred years. it was in a state of evolution when Abraham was created, these morals of this time captured in scripture with Mesopotamian influences after the fall of the temple

 

[fallingblood]

Nope, they didnt deviate

Israeli's consisted of many different semetic speaking people of many different cultures that all migrated after the collapse of the major governments in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Canaan, and even nomadic tribes. All of which before 1200 BC had human sacrifices.

There was no unique hebrew culture early on it mirrored the migrated people in the melting pot and pottery shows little difference to Canaanite's for a few hundred years. it was in a state of evolution when Abraham was created, these morals of this time captured in scripture with Mesopotamian influences after the fall of the temple

That is simply wrong. Not all of those cultures practiced human sacrifices. For instance, Egypt probably didn't, and the time period that they may have if they did, ended around 2800 B.C.E. We can't say for the nomadic tribes, as we really don't have any evidence. Even in Canaan, since there were a variety of tribes, one can't assume all did and there just isn't evidence to suggest that they all did.

Also, there were distinct differences between the Hebrews and the Canaanites from the beginning. When you have such large melting pot, that is a given.



On the other hand, although there is not much evidence for human sacrifice for the Hebrews (so they can be said to have deviated from such), in the book of Judges there is at least one example.

 

[Oryonder]

Nope, they didnt deviate

Israeli's consisted of many different semetic speaking people of many different cultures that all migrated after the collapse of the major governments in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Canaan, and even nomadic tribes. All of which before 1200 BC had human sacrifices.

There was no unique hebrew culture early on it mirrored the migrated people in the melting pot and pottery shows little difference to Canaanite's for a few hundred years. it was in a state of evolution when Abraham was created, these morals of this time captured in scripture with Mesopotamian influences after the fall of the temple

Agreed. We have to remember that the story about Abraham's sacrifice was written over 1000 years after Abraham was reputed to have existed.

What things were like in Abraham's time as opposed to 4 centuries later when Israelite people were starting to form a nation are two completely different things.

Indeed at least some Israelites practices human sacrifice, it may have even been common. Since the Israelites adopted the religious practices of the Caananites it is expectd that they would have adopted the sacrificial customs as well.

Some scholars even suggest that in the original story of Abraham he actually did sacrifice his son but the story was later edited in order to condemn the practice (and good thing too).

This does not help much with finding the origins Genesis though .. IMO.

 

[outhouse]

Agreed. We have to remember that the story about Abraham's sacrifice was written over 1000 years after Abraham was reputed to have existed.

What things were like in Abraham's time as opposed to 4 centuries later when Israelite people were starting to form a nation are two completely different things.

Indeed at least some Israelites practices human sacrifice, it may have even been common. Since the Israelites adopted the religious practices of the Caananites it is expectd that they would have adopted the sacrificial customs as well.

Some scholars even suggest that in the original story of Abraham he actually did sacrifice his son but the story was later edited in order to condemn the practice (and good thing too).

This does not help much with finding the origins Genesis though .. IMO.

The origins of genesis is a book all in its own rights

heres the best ive read that is the most complete.

The Legends of Genesis: V. Jahvist, Elohist, Jehovist, the Later Collections

frubals for a positive learning attitude

 

[outhouse]

That is simply wrong. Not all of those cultures practiced human sacrifices. For instance, Egypt probably didn't, and the time period that they may have if they did, ended around 2800 B.C.E. We can't say for the nomadic tribes, as we really don't have any evidence. Even in Canaan, since there were a variety of tribes, one can't assume all did and there just isn't evidence to suggest that they all did.

Also, there were distinct differences between the Hebrews and the Canaanites from the beginning. When you have such large melting pot, that is a given.



On the other hand, although there is not much evidence for human sacrifice for the Hebrews (so they can be said to have deviated from such), in the book of Judges there is at least one example.

LOL you contradict yourself

and I never stated they all did.

The mythology has plenty of suggestions towards human sacrifice and god savoring the smell of burnt flesh.


hey if a sacrifice was a shared meal with god? were they cannabalistic LOL ya ya I know they had ancient laws that it wasnt Koesher

 

[Oryonder]

LOL you contradict yourself

and I never stated they all did.

The mythology has plenty of suggestions towards human sacrifice and god savoring the smell of burnt flesh.


hey if a sacrifice was a shared meal with god? were they cannabalistic LOL ya ya I know they had ancient laws that it wasnt Koesher

There are numerous references to the Israelite practice of human sacrifice in the Bible.

2 Kings 16:3 He (Ahaz) walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

2 Kings 17:17 They (the Israelites) sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire

1 Kings 11: 7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods

 

[fallingblood]

LOL you contradict yourself

and I never stated they all did.

The mythology has plenty of suggestions towards human sacrifice and god savoring the smell of burnt flesh.


hey if a sacrifice was a shared meal with god? were they cannabalistic LOL ya ya I know they had ancient laws that it wasnt Koesher

Actually, you did state they all did. That all of the groups that made up the Hebrews practiced human sacrifice. That simply is false.

Second, God smelling burnt flesh does not suggest human sacrifice. Animals have flesh as well. So what you said again is false.

And there was no contradiction on my part.

 

[outhouse]

Actually, you did state they all did. That all of the groups that made up the Hebrews practiced human sacrifice. That simply is false.

Second, God smelling burnt flesh does not suggest human sacrifice. Animals have flesh as well. So what you said again is false.

And there was no contradiction on my part.

You know what I did state they all did.

now its your turn to state which didnt. Egyptians while not wide spread, did at times have human sacrifices

 

[outhouse]

Second, God smelling burnt flesh does not suggest human sacrifice.

didnt say it did.

just that god loves that smell of char flesh MMMmm MMMmm

 

[fallingblood]

You know what I did state they all did.

now its your turn to state which didnt. Egyptians while not wide spread, did at times have human sacrifices

Human sacrifice in Egypt ended, if it occurred at all, in about 2800. So they didnt. We don't know about the nomadic tribes as we really don't have information on them and thus can't rule one way or another. As for the Canaanites, there is evidence some of the tribes did. But not all of them. Even in Mesopotamia not all did.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Indeed at least some Israelites practices human sacrifice, it may have even been common.

Or you may be full of it. Let's find out. Where is yyour evidence that "at least some Israelites practices human sacrifice"?

 

[outhouse]

Human sacrifice in Egypt ended, if it occurred at all, in about 2800. So they didnt. We don't know about the nomadic tribes as we really don't have information on them and thus can't rule one way or another. As for the Canaanites, there is evidence some of the tribes did. But not all of them. Even in Mesopotamia not all did.

Ok so egyptians did

and you dont have a culture that didnt.