Did the Babylonians invent Judaism?

[Oryonder]

I am still wondering if there is any proof.. like real evidence...

People can have things in common but does that mean one is from the other or vica versa?

Of course there is proof .. loads of it. Real empirical evidence.

At early Israelite sites they excavate loads of 4 horned alters that the Israelites would burn incense on and so forth.

This is symbolic of El and/or Asherah.

The average Israelite worshiped El and/or Asherah and when they were not worshiping either of those two they were worshiping Baal.

They have excavated depictions of El-Yahweh which shows El-Yahweh and his consort Asherah together.

There is writing from many different culturs that describes what folks were doing at the time and how they worshiped their Gods.

Both the archaeology and the written historical record from that time jives with much of what is written in the Bible.

 

[waitasec]

It is silly to suggest that the sacrifices referred to were not human as that is what one did to Chemosh .. even down to the Carthaginians. What did you think is meant when disgusting practices in relation to sacrifice are referred to and the numerous condemnations of the writers of the OT of the Israelites that sacrificed their children and so forth.



Regardless ..there are many other passages that refer to the practise of human sacrifice by the Israelites in the Bible.

Just do a google search (human sacrifice ancient Israel ).

Here is one link but there are many others
Child Sacrifice in Ancient Israel: The Unspoken Bible

here is a quote from that link.

Theistic religions in one way or another were founded upon ritualized murder. What made children susceptible to sacrifice, was their virginity and their innocence. This concept is embedded in Judaism and Christianity to this day.
Paradoxically, child sacrifice ended when Judah was captured by the hated Babylonians in 586 BCE. Jews don't practice their canonical obligation to sacrifice anymore, but there is still one remaining legacy where they celebrate child sacrifice every year. And that is the Passover when Yahweh killed firstborn Egyptians and their firstborn livestock. To ease their conscience they label it as their release from Egyptian bondage.
24You shall observe this rite as an ordinance for you and for your sons for ever.
25And when you come to the land which the LORD will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service.
26And when your children say to you, 'What do you mean by this service?'
27you shall say, 'It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he slew the Egyptians but spared our houses.'" And the people bowed their heads and worshiped. (Ex. 12:24-27)
Christians may feel that their religion is above such barbarous practices. That is only because they have been dulled into ignoring the immorality of the torturous sacrifice of one innocent man.

interesting.

 

[Levite]

here is a quote from that link.

Theistic religions in one way or another were founded upon ritualized murder. What made children susceptible to sacrifice, was their virginity and their innocence. This concept is embedded in Judaism and Christianity to this day.
Paradoxically, child sacrifice ended when Judah was captured by the hated Babylonians in 586 BCE. Jews don't practice their canonical obligation to sacrifice anymore, but there is still one remaining legacy where they celebrate child sacrifice every year. And that is the Passover when Yahweh killed firstborn Egyptians and their firstborn livestock. To ease their conscience they label it as their release from Egyptian bondage.
24You shall observe this rite as an ordinance for you and for your sons for ever.
25And when you come to the land which the LORD will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service.
26And when your children say to you, 'What do you mean by this service?'
27you shall say, 'It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he slew the Egyptians but spared our houses.'" And the people bowed their heads and worshiped. (Ex. 12:24-27)
Christians may feel that their religion is above such barbarous practices. That is only because they have been dulled into ignoring the immorality of the torturous sacrifice of one innocent man.

interesting.

That might potentially be the stupidest thing I have ever seen cited at this forum, and that is really saying something.

Passover celebrates the Exodus. One aspect of the Exodus is that God killed many of the Egyptians during the plagues, and during the miracle at the Sea of Reeds. For most of those incidents there was no discrimination against which Egyptians died. During the tenth plague, as a sign and a retribution for the Egyptian slaughter of Israelite children, God took the lives of firstborn Egyptians-- adults and children, male and female.

This has absolutely nothing to do with human sacrifice-- child or otherwise. The Egyptians killed Jewish children as an attempt at genocide. God killed Egyptians in retribution and as a sign. No one ever ritually sacrificed children.

The only Passover sacrifice was a lamb killed for the paschal offering. Or are we really saying that sheep are now actually human beings?

This is one of the most odious little pieces of anti-Semitism I've seen in weeks.

 

[Godwilling]

The Egyptians killed Jewish children as an attempt at genocide.

Do you have any historical evidence of that?

God killed Egyptians in retribution and as a sign.

As a sign of what? Are you saying that God is racist and that he likes Jews more than he likes Egyptians?

This is one of the most odious little pieces of anti-Semitism I've seen in weeks.

Do you use the anti-Semitic card every time someone has an opinion different than yours? What do you call your previous statement that God killed the Egyptians in favor of the Jews...pro-Semitic?

 

[Levite]

Do you have any historical evidence of that?

Please. If it didn't happen, then there is also no basis for saying there was human sacrifice in the Passover. You can't have it both ways.

As a sign of what? Are you saying that God is racist and that he likes Jews more than he likes Egyptians?

Don't be simplistically reductive. As a sign that God is God, and that the gods of the Egyptians were false; as a sign that God does not human beings to wipe one another out-- that God is the true judge of us all;

Do you use the anti-Semitic card every time someone has an opinion different than yours? What do you call your previous statement that God killed the Egyptians in favor of the Jews...pro-Semitic?

I call it justice. God didn't randomly choose some people to kill: just as the Egyptians killed the firstborn of the Jews, the same was visited back upon them, as a lesson.

And I call it anti-Semitism when someone grossly distorts Jewish text for the purpose of portraying Jews as killers of babies. It is no different than the old blood libels, when Christians came round and killed us over accusations of using the blood of Christian babies to bake matzah for Passover.

I sincerely hope that your ignorant dismissiveness of anti-Semitism comes from nobody having discriminated against you, and flung slurs about your people and ancestry at you.

 

[Godwilling]

You can't have it both ways.



As a sign that God is God, and that the gods of the Egyptians were false

If God is God how can the God of the Egyptians be false?

I call it justice. God didn't randomly choose some people to kill: just as the Egyptians killed the firstborn of the Jews, the same was visited back upon them, as a lesson.

Are you calling the Egyptians "baby killers"?

And I call it anti-Semitism when someone grossly distorts Jewish text for the purpose of portraying Jews as killers of babies.

It appears that you are the one trying to "have it both ways". You can call the Egyptian's God a "false gods" and call the Egyptians "baby killers", but cannot tolerate that someone could disagree with you otherwise you accuse him of anti-Semitic.

I sincerely hope that your ignorant dismissiveness of anti-Semitism comes from nobody having discriminated against you, and flung slurs about your people and ancestry at you.

I have been discriminated plenty, and you appear to discriminate plenty and to make gross assumptions about others.

I also hope sincerely that your ignorant use of the word anti-Semitic does not affect my many loved Jewish friends who abhor the use of that term for trivial things like a meaningless discussion about religion in a public forum.

I would be one of the ones at your side if anyone treated you unkindly because you are a Jew, and I would do the same for an Egyptian for that matter. And I would be the first one to tell you that you should be more careful with your labels so it does never lose its original worthy intent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In my opinion, this thread has migrated from the pathetically absurd to the simply pathetic.

 

[Oryonder]

That might potentially be the stupidest thing I have ever seen cited at this forum, and that is really saying something.

Passover celebrates the Exodus. One aspect of the Exodus is that God killed many of the Egyptians during the plagues, and during the miracle at the Sea of Reeds. For most of those incidents there was no discrimination against which Egyptians died. During the tenth plague, as a sign and a retribution for the Egyptian slaughter of Israelite children, God took the lives of firstborn Egyptians-- adults and children, male and female.

This has absolutely nothing to do with human sacrifice-- child or otherwise. The Egyptians killed Jewish children as an attempt at genocide. God killed Egyptians in retribution and as a sign. No one ever ritually sacrificed children.

The only Passover sacrifice was a lamb killed for the paschal offering. Or are we really saying that sheep are now actually human beings?

This is one of the most odious little pieces of anti-Semitism I've seen in weeks.

No need to wander off topic. What the passover celebrates today does not necessarily have anything to do with actual events in Egypt .. long since forgotten by the time the Bible was written.

Playing the "anti Semitism" card is lame.

Abraham certainly did engage in human sacrifice (or at least attempted to). Many scholars think that Abraham actually did sacrifice his first born, as was common practise, and the story was edited 1000 years later when it was actually put to paper.

None of this changes the fact that the Israelites .. and most everyone else in the area where they lived .. sacrificed a human or two from time to time.

 

[Levite]

Ugh. I am officially done with this thread. I hope never to encounter these sorts of revolting attitudes here again.

Probably a useless hope. But I'm done feeding these trolls.

 

[Oryonder]

Ugh. I am officially done with this thread. I hope never to encounter these sorts of revolting attitudes here again.

Probably a useless hope. But I'm done feeding these trolls.

You can close your eyes, mouth, nose, ears, and anything else that lets the bad news in but it will not change the truth.

The truth is that many of our ancestors sacrificed humans to the Gods and Israelites were no different.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But I'm done feeding these trolls.

Fortunately, anyone capable of such transparent idiocy as ...

Abraham certainly did engage in human sacrifice (or at least attempted to). Many scholars think that Abraham actually did sacrifice his first born, as was common practise, and the story was edited 1000 years later when it was actually put to paper.

... is unlikely to be taken seriously by anyone other than the stormfront crowd. I mean, really: "edited 1000 years later when it was actually put to paper." :biglaugh:

 

[waitasec]

That might potentially be the stupidest thing I have ever seen cited at this forum, and that is really saying something.

Passover celebrates the Exodus. One aspect of the Exodus is that God killed many of the Egyptians during the plagues, and during the miracle at the Sea of Reeds. For most of those incidents there was no discrimination against which Egyptians died. During the tenth plague, as a sign and a retribution for the Egyptian slaughter of Israelite children, God took the lives of firstborn Egyptians-- adults and children, male and female.

This has absolutely nothing to do with human sacrifice-- child or otherwise. The Egyptians killed Jewish children as an attempt at genocide. God killed Egyptians in retribution and as a sign. No one ever ritually sacrificed children.

The only Passover sacrifice was a lamb killed for the paschal offering. Or are we really saying that sheep are now actually human beings?

This is one of the most odious little pieces of anti-Semitism I've seen in weeks.

oh please...

of course it does

you said it was...

a retribution for the Egyptian slaughter of Israelite children,

and lets just toss out the murdering of the midianites while we're at it

i can't believe you pulled the antisemitism card....
really?
gee, when people criticise the history of my heritage for slavery....i guess that makes them a bigot...come on.

 

[waitasec]

The truth is that many of our ancestors sacrificed humans to the Gods and Israelites were no different.

what makes them the chosen ones i wonder....

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

of course it does

Actually, though you no doubt find it inconvenient, it is not.

 

[waitasec]

Actually, though you no doubt find it inconvenient, it is not.

what is the purpose of sacrifice?
to amend or for reparation, yes?

yes it was.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

what is the purpose of sacrifice?

Lamb is yummy.

 

[waitasec]

Lamb is yummy.

your dodging the question....besides, lamb is too gamey for me.

if you want to shed some light on this then you are going to have to make a better effort than that...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

your dodging the question....besides, lamb is too gamey for me.

Actually, I am not. You're the one who insists on equating the Pesach sacrifice to human sacrifice. It's an agenda-driven misreading of the text with which you feed your persistent hatred. ... and, besides, I very much like lamb - pascal or otherwise.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

waitasec, with reference to the Passover sacrifice, would you mind telling me just what is/was being sacrificed, by whom, and for whom? Thanks.

 

[waitasec]

waitasec, with reference to the Passover sacrifice, would you mind telling me just what is/was being sacrificed, by whom, and for whom? Thanks.

first let me start by saying, i don't really think this ever happened.
i am inclined to believe that this is folklore, a story to encourage and justify to a group of people to believe they are gods chosen (instilling a sense of right). this fictional sacrifice/exodus, represents their right to freedom, their right to ratify revenge on any rival tribe and to think these things actually happened by saying things like, god killed the 1st born of the egyptians to free israel, is hideous at best.

having that said....
what was being sacrificed? the 1st born
by whom...the israelites
for whom...the israelites

your welcome.