Did the Babylonians invent Judaism?

[fallingblood]

Ok so egyptians did

and you dont have a culture that didnt.

You didn't read what I wrote. You can hardly count the Egyptians as if they did, and they most likely didn't, they stopped around 2800 BCE. So long before they may have influenced the Hebrews.

 

[outhouse]

You didn't read what I wrote. You can hardly count the Egyptians as if they did, and they most likely didn't, they stopped around 2800 BCE. So long before they may have influenced the Hebrews.

but once they became Israeli their thirst for blood was awakened as noted in the OT???

 

[fallingblood]

but once they became Israeli their thirst for blood was awakened as noted in the OT???

What are you talking about?

 

[outhouse]

What are you talking about?

trying to get you to ligten up Francis LOL

meaning what ever unknown amount of egyptians that migrated to become part of this new hebrew culture. were involved with human sacrifices now

 

[fallingblood]

trying to get you to ligten up Francis LOL

meaning what ever egyptians migrated to become part of this new hebrew culture. were involved with human sacrifices now

Um, no.

 

[fallingblood]

There are numerous references to the Israelite practice of human sacrifice in the Bible.

2 Kings 16:3 He (Ahaz) walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

2 Kings 17:17 They (the Israelites) sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire

1 Kings 11: 7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods

The third one is talking about Solomon allowing his wives peoples to sacrifice to their gods. And it doesn't talk about human sacrifice anyway.

The first quote now is actually making a distinguishing remark. The kings of Israel are not the kings of all the Hebrews. They are the kings of the kingdom of Israel (as opposed to the kingdom of Judah). More so, the text actually states clearly that they that one king decided to go against what was traditional and do something else. So it really isn't evidence that the Hebrews actually participated in human sacrifice. Finally, it may not even be talking about human sacrifice, as the regular words for sacrifice are not used. It may just be referring to a fire ritual.

The second passage also deals more with a type of ritual, the involved passing through fire. Not really human sacrifice at all. More so, this was hardly traditional acts of Hebrews, as it was forbidden. This is all leading up to the point in which the kingdom of Israel was destroyed.

 

[Levite]

The third one is talking about Solomon allowing his wives peoples to sacrifice to their gods. And it doesn't talk about human sacrifice anyway.

The first quote now is actually making a distinguishing remark. The kings of Israel are not the kings of all the Hebrews. They are the kings of the kingdom of Israel (as opposed to the kingdom of Judah). More so, the text actually states clearly that they that one king decided to go against what was traditional and do something else. So it really isn't evidence that the Hebrews actually participated in human sacrifice. Finally, it may not even be talking about human sacrifice, as the regular words for sacrifice are not used. It may just be referring to a fire ritual.

The second passage also deals more with a type of ritual, the involved passing through fire. Not really human sacrifice at all. More so, this was hardly traditional acts of Hebrews, as it was forbidden. This is all leading up to the point in which the kingdom of Israel was destroyed.

Actually, much as it pains me to say it, those verses are referring to human sacrifice. The idioms used are actually pretty specific to those acts.

But their inclusion, and their full context, makes it clear that the acts that they describe were extraordinary, and not the usual state of affairs.

Generally speaking, during the struggles between YHVH monotheism and monolatrous inclusion of other deities in worship during Biblical times, the weakness of the ancient Israelites was either for associating YHVH with the Baal deities of the Canaanites, or for including fertility goddesses like Asherah and Ashtoret in their worship-- which is understandable, everyone likes a good fertility ritual. But much more seldom were outbreaks of the worship of Chemosh and Molech, gods notorious for "demanding" human sacrifices-- especially Molech, a truly abhorrent abomination whose rites were heavy on child sacrifice. These gods are some of the few singled out by name in the Torah for prohibtion of their worship specifically, not just by general proscription of idolatry.

The texts in Judges and Kings that describe outbreaks of such worship are clear that they were shocking and not at all the usual course of events, even during epochs of idolatry amongst the Israelites.

To say that human sacrifice was ever common amongst the ancient Israelites, or even most of the supposed proto-Israelite groups is more than just a stretch. It is simply untenable.

 

[Oryonder]

Or you may be full of it. Let's find out. Where is yyour evidence that "at least some Israelites practices human sacrifice"?

That is what the Bible states.

 

[Oryonder]

The third one is talking about Solomon allowing his wives peoples to sacrifice to their gods. And it doesn't talk about human sacrifice anyway.

The first quote now is actually making a distinguishing remark. The kings of Israel are not the kings of all the Hebrews. They are the kings of the kingdom of Israel (as opposed to the kingdom of Judah). More so, the text actually states clearly that they that one king decided to go against what was traditional and do something else. So it really isn't evidence that the Hebrews actually participated in human sacrifice. Finally, it may not even be talking about human sacrifice, as the regular words for sacrifice are not used. It may just be referring to a fire ritual.

The second passage also deals more with a type of ritual, the involved passing through fire. Not really human sacrifice at all. More so, this was hardly traditional acts of Hebrews, as it was forbidden. This is all leading up to the point in which the kingdom of Israel was destroyed.

It is silly to suggest that the sacrifices referred to were not human as that is what one did to Chemosh .. even down to the Carthaginians. What did you think is meant when disgusting practices in relation to sacrifice are referred to and the numerous condemnations of the writers of the OT of the Israelites that sacrificed their children and so forth.



Regardless ..there are many other passages that refer to the practise of human sacrifice by the Israelites in the Bible.

Just do a google search (human sacrifice ancient Israel ).

Here is one link but there are many others
Child Sacrifice in Ancient Israel: The Unspoken Bible

 

[Levite]

Here is one link but there are many others
Child Sacrifice in Ancient Israel: The Unspoken Bible

It's probably worth noting that this site is a rabidly anti-religious atheist site, some of whose readings walk the line of anti-Semitism; its readings of text are commesurately suspect.

 

[fallingblood]

Actually, much as it pains me to say it, those verses are referring to human sacrifice. The idioms used are actually pretty specific to those acts.

But their inclusion, and their full context, makes it clear that the acts that they describe were extraordinary, and not the usual state of affairs.

Generally speaking, during the struggles between YHVH monotheism and monolatrous inclusion of other deities in worship during Biblical times, the weakness of the ancient Israelites was either for associating YHVH with the Baal deities of the Canaanites, or for including fertility goddesses like Asherah and Ashtoret in their worship-- which is understandable, everyone likes a good fertility ritual. But much more seldom were outbreaks of the worship of Chemosh and Molech, gods notorious for "demanding" human sacrifices-- especially Molech, a truly abhorrent abomination whose rites were heavy on child sacrifice. These gods are some of the few singled out by name in the Torah for prohibtion of their worship specifically, not just by general proscription of idolatry.

The texts in Judges and Kings that describe outbreaks of such worship are clear that they were shocking and not at all the usual course of events, even during epochs of idolatry amongst the Israelites.

To say that human sacrifice was ever common amongst the ancient Israelites, or even most of the supposed proto-Israelite groups is more than just a stretch. It is simply untenable.

I stand corrected. I was aware that these situations as described were not common, but I was under the impression that they referred to something else. But thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Oryonder]

It's probably worth noting that this site is a rabidly anti-religious atheist site, some of whose readings walk the line of anti-Semitism; its readings of text are commesurately suspect.

Im sure there are such folks on most sites.

Best way to deal with such things is to get the dialogue out into the open so the flaws can be exposed IMO.

 

[Oryonder]

Actually, much as it pains me to say it, those verses are referring to human sacrifice. The idioms used are actually pretty specific to those acts.

But their inclusion, and their full context, makes it clear that the acts that they describe were extraordinary, and not the usual state of affairs.

Generally speaking, during the struggles between YHVH monotheism and monolatrous inclusion of other deities in worship during Biblical times, the weakness of the ancient Israelites was either for associating YHVH with the Baal deities of the Canaanites, or for including fertility goddesses like Asherah and Ashtoret in their worship-- which is understandable, everyone likes a good fertility ritual. But much more seldom were outbreaks of the worship of Chemosh and Molech, gods notorious for "demanding" human sacrifices-- especially Molech, a truly abhorrent abomination whose rites were heavy on child sacrifice. These gods are some of the few singled out by name in the Torah for prohibtion of their worship specifically, not just by general proscription of idolatry.

The texts in Judges and Kings that describe outbreaks of such worship are clear that they were shocking and not at all the usual course of events, even during epochs of idolatry amongst the Israelites.

To say that human sacrifice was ever common amongst the ancient Israelites, or even most of the supposed proto-Israelite groups is more than just a stretch. It is simply untenable.

The Bible claims that human sacrifice was common.

 

[fallingblood]

The Bible claims that human sacrifice was common.

Where?

 

[Levite]

The Bible claims that human sacrifice was common.

Where?

Yeah, where?

 

[Oryonder]

Where?

Some of this was already given to you but I shall go into more depth.

16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
(2 Kgs. 17:16-18)

This would be enough however there are numerous other passages.

Elijah tells us that at the time he was the only prophet in Israel in Kings 18:22. The Prophets of Baal are 450 and Asherah 400.

Jeremiah has the same story.

30"For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the LORD; they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it.
31And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. (Jer. 7:30-31)
35They built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jer. 32:35

Ezekial says the same thing

20And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter
21that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them? (Ezek. 16:20-21

There are numerous other examples but this should suffice.

 

[Levite]

These are all examples of Prophets condemning outbreaks of idolatry even worse than the usual. They don't describe the commonplace, but the uncommon.

 

[Godwilling]

These are all examples of Prophets condemning outbreaks of idolatry even worse than the usual. They don't describe the commonplace, but the uncommon.

I think commonplace is what most people are doing/practicing and uncommon would be what few, if any people, are doing/practicing.

I think Kings 18 makes it clear that Elijah was 1/851 of the prophets of Israel at the time and that 850/851 of the prophets of Israel did support human sacrifices at the time.

Kings 18

Elijah on Mount Carmel

16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When he saw Elijah, he said to him, “Is that you, you troubler of Israel?”
18 “I have not made trouble for Israel,” Elijah replied. “But you and your father’s family have. You have abandoned the Lord’s commands and have followed the Baals. 19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”
20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”
But the people said nothing.
22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.

 

[Oryonder]

These are all examples of Prophets condemning outbreaks of idolatry even worse than the usual. They don't describe the commonplace, but the uncommon.

Considering in Elisha's time he was the "only prophet" for Yahweh. The vast and overwhelming majority of Israel was worshiping Baal and Asherah

I Kings 18

Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."

Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets

Obviously the Israelites are completely given over to other Gods. 850-1.

This type of thing does not happen over night. This was not the exception but the rule. So much so that the writers of the OT do not just have Elijah condemning the worship of other Gods (Gods that demanded human sacrifice according to the Bible and other historical sources) but Ezekiel and Jeremiah as well.

So we have Elijah in the 9th century BC right down to Ezekiel at the time of the Babylonians around 580 BC.

But these only a few examples .. there are many more.

Just a few years after coming out of Egypt when Moses went up to the Mountain his brother Aaron took the gold and jewelery from the Israelites and made a Golden Calf.

Obviously Yahweh must not have made much of an impression by parting the red sea and so forth.

It is only when Israel is a conquered nation that the writers of the Bible are able to sell the story of Yahweh. The writers of the Bible blamed the downfall on God as was common to almost all nations for most of recorded history.

For most of the history of Israel as a free nation (prior to the Babylonian captivity) Yahweh was just one of a number of Gods the Israelites worshiped.

Even when we speak of Yahweh it should be realized that to the Israelites Yahweh was "El" (The father and creator) and was worshiped along side his consort Asherah.





​

 

[F0uad]

I am still wondering if there is any proof.. like real evidence...

People can have things in common but does that mean one is from the other or vica versa?