Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

[Pegg]

the snake (whom I do not believe was Satan, otherwise the bible would say so)

you might be surprised to know that the bible does actually state that the original serpent was Satan the devil.

 

[leon_the_14]

Satan only gives us the option of evil.
God gave us freewill and it is up to us whether or not we choose to follow that path.

 

[arcanum]

One of the problems I have with the standard interpretation of this story is God made human beings very fallible. With our supposed free will, can human beings really be relied upon to make good choices? Human beings always have been and always will make choices dependent upon their own particular fallible subjective nature. In other words if you look at history, humans with free will is a dangerous thing. The whole notion is absurd that a couple of very fallible humans actually stood a chance against Satan( though as been pointed out the story does not say the serpent was Satan). The whole story is ridiculous if you believe the standard christian interpretation of it: that god would have set us up to go against an intelligence like Satan and expect us to make the right choice. That's like throwing a preschooler in the ring to go up against a prize fighter.

 

[JacobEzra.]

you might be surprised to know that the bible does actually state that the original serpent was Satan the devil.

Lol where?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Free will based on "Do as Mommy/Daddy tells you"... 'or else',

is not the same as Decisions made Based on Deeper and more Extensive Knowledge and Personal Understanding.

"Choice...the problem is choice."

 

[1137]

you might be surprised to know that the bible does actually state that the original serpent was Satan the devil.

Maybe the NT but not the Torah. Satan meant "the adversary" in different variations in Judaism. The fictional character of the devil had not been invented yet, so the Jewish authors who wrote Genesis were not talking about the devil.

People always point out how Christianity perverted older religions, the seem to forget Judaism was one of the biggest victims.

 

[9Westy9]

answer: no one gave us free will because it doesn't exist

In all seriousness though if free will exists and the Creation story of Christianity is right then yes, the serpent gave us knowledge whereas God gave us freewill.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

you might be surprised to know that the bible does actually state that the original serpent was Satan the devil.

Not at the time it doesn't... later authors turned around and wrote their interpretation of the story.

The closest we see in the old testament are references to one of God's angels whom He tells to torture people like Job.


edit: sorry that was 'testing' yeah.... *rolls eyes*

 

[Daviso452]

What led to the formation of these self-imposed rules if not something else? "Will" isn't without a cause.

A person experiences different things in his/her life and from those the person determines what and what not to do. Sometimes they are taught. Sometimes they are inferred. True, some people are indoctrinated into certain things and when they think they have free will they are truly living by another person's standards and rules. It would take a considerable amount of self-awareness to separate your will from that of others.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

A person experiences different things in his/her life and from those the person determines what and what not to do. Sometimes they are taught. Sometimes they are inferred. True, some people are indoctrinated into certain things and when they think they have free will they are truly living by another person's standards and rules. It would take a considerable amount of self-awareness to separate your will from that of others.

Think a level lower. I'm talking physics. Causality, not sociology. Even self-awareness is the result of it. To be free from the influences of what is around you is impossible.

 

[Daviso452]

Think a level lower. I'm talking physics. Causality, not sociology. Even self-awareness is the result of it. To be free from the influences of what is around you is impossible.

I'm not saying to be free from the influence, but be aware of what and how things influence you. You can't just say "I have free will." To have free will is something that depends on the person and cannot exactly be tested. Maybe someday it will. I don't know.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I'm not saying to be free from the influence, but be aware of what and how things influence you. You can't just say "I have free will." To have free will is something that depends on the person and cannot exactly be tested. Maybe someday it will. I don't know.

Unless we can't even define "free will", how can it ever be testable?

 

[Pegg]

Lol where?

in the book of Revelation.

The true identity of satan was made very clear by Jesus and his apostles.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth

 

[InformedIgnorance]

The problem being 'true' free will being something along the lines of being able to think and make decisions without restrictions is impossible, for starters because we are restricted by our physiology, which is influenced by our environment - ignoring aspects such as causality, mental control and so forth. At best, we might hope to have 'bounded' free will, subject to the restrictions of only our body and that any influences from our environment are not designed in such a way as to directly influence either conscious or sub-conscious.


edit: The Book of Revelations huh.... the one with the dragon and the 'microchips' and so forth? well ignoring for a moment the at times dubious content of that particular chapter and even its questionable authenticity; examine the bible without the influence of the book of revelatons, then examine the bible with it... there are some VERY significant differences if you use the book of revelatons as a lens, such significant disparities need to be addressed.

 

[Pegg]

answer: no one gave us free will because it doesn't exist

In all seriousness though if free will exists and the Creation story of Christianity is right then yes, the serpent gave us knowledge whereas God gave us freewill.

if you have the ability to 'choose', then you have 'free will'.

 

[Iti oj]

Christians always say Freewill is a gift from God, which confuses me, because if I remember correctly, it came from the Devil, not God, and God didn't want man to have freewill. If it came from the Devil, isn't it kind of disrespectful to your God to say it is a 'gift'?



Why Satan gave us freewill? In the Garden of Eden, he came as a serpent and tempted Eve to eat the apple, God didn't want her to and told her not to. She took the apple. Without the temptation, the will to eat the apple would not have happened.

Who what do you mean by satan?

 

[idav]

if you have the ability to 'choose', then you have 'free will'.

This. There is definitely a difference when someone is forced to do something which isn't a choice. Especially when outside influences are considered there is a clear distinction for choice.

 

[Pegg]

This. There is definitely a difference when someone is forced to do something which isn't a choice. Especially when outside influences are considered there is a clear distinction for choice.

and whats interesting is that God gave mankind the choice in the garden of Eden, but Satan knew that if he could entice the first man and woman into sin, then the rest of mankind would have no choice but to be born with the consequences of sin, namely death.

so Satan took away choice for everone of us.... But gladly God has given it back to us by providing Jesus as a ransomer. God trumps over satan as per usual.

 

[Daviso452]

Unless we can't even define "free will", how can it ever be testable?

That was more or less my point.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

... Satan knew that if he could entice the first man and woman into sin, then the rest of mankind would have no choice but to be born with the consequences of sin, namely death.

so Satan took away choice for everone of us....

Actually, was it not God who ensured that all mankind would be born into sin by making it that the original sin was passed along the generations? After all, it was only 'sin' because God deemed it as such and it is God that determines the punishment and forgiveness of sin.