Died For Our Sins ?

[Just_me_Mike]

Michael I guess there is a school of thought that says Jesus died for everones sins, and it is upto those individuals to act upon that blessing.
I disgree with this teaching, but it is a popular teaching

 

[sojourner]

OK, your opinion is noted. No big deal.

It is a big deal, for it deals with such issues as:
1) The efficacy of grace
2) The ominipotence of God
3) The nature of love
4) The nature of our relationship with the Divine
5) The paradigm of the Incarnation and Jesus Event.

I'd say those are fairly core issues for the Xian.

 

[Mr Cheese]

So are you saying you believe the bible teaches he died for everyones sins or not?

read it....

sigh

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It is a big deal, for it deals with such issues as:
1) The efficacy of grace
2) The ominipotence of God
3) The nature of love
4) The nature of our relationship with the Divine
5) The paradigm of the Incarnation and Jesus Event.

I'd say those are fairly core issues for the Xian.

Well you are offering one liners, so I have nothing to work with. So it is no big deal. If you want to discuss it in more detail than so be it. You haven't so far, so what do you want me to say?

It appears you are claiming EVERYONE will go to heaven, am I reading you right?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

read it....

sigh

I have many hundreds of times. I was just asking your opinion. That's all.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I have many hundreds of times. I was just asking your opinion. That's all.

It seems to say so to me....

The Savior said, "All natures, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another,and they will be resolved again into their own roots. For the nature of matter is resolved into the (roots) of its nature alone. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

--The Gospel of Mary

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It seems to say so to me....

The Savior said, "All natures, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another,and they will be resolved again into their own roots. For the nature of matter is resolved into the (roots) of its nature alone. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

--The Gospel of Mary

thanks!

 

[sojourner]

Well you are offering one liners, so I have nothing to work with. So it is no big deal. If you want to discuss it in more detail than so be it. You haven't so far, so what do you want me to say?

You offered up one-liners, such as: "We know not everyone will make it." Give me more to work with, and you've got a deal.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You offered up one-liners, such as: "We know not everyone will make it." Give me more to work with, and you've got a deal.

I just did, I asked you if you are implying everyone is going to heaven.

 

[sojourner]

It appears you are claiming EVERYONE will go to heaven, am I reading you right?

My claim (based upon Biblical evidence) is that in the very act of God becoming human, humanity was reconciled to God.

I think that God created all of us to be with God and in God. I think that God will get God's way, in the end. Otherwise, what's it all for?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Otherwise, what's it all for?

Read my tag line. Does that sound like the God you are painting?

Is this RF not evidence enough that some people just HATE God, and some people just think He is as real is the tooth fairy?

I agree that every knee will bow, as it is told. However you are discounting many places where God chose not to bring people ot heaven. Just because they will all bow, that does not mean they will go to heaven.

Take the flood for example, he found only 8 souls that were righteous, the rest he got rid of.

Please help me understand your side though, it doesn't make much sense right now.

 

[Michael Turner]

For me Michael, it is just a small matter. The bible teaches not to neglect gathering, because we may be amongst angels.

The fact is we just don't know enough to worry about who's sins are paid for and who's are not. So just assuming ANYONE who we see could be one of the elect, it is just a safe thing to do by saying they are all candidates.

Even though we know not everyone will make it. So for me it is just easier to not get hung up on that stuff.

Fair enough my friend. I too believe that we should present the gospel to everyone without discrimination, just as we are commanded. And I would not recommend anyone getting "hung up" on election if it proves to be a distraction to their faith. However, it is a thoroughly Biblical doctrine that is actually essential in how scripture defines salvation and the sovereignty of God. What's more, when understood properly it is among the most humbling, comforting, and awe inspiring elements of the Christian faith.

I just thought it interesting that it had not been brought up in a thread of this subject.

Blessings...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Fair enough my friend. I too believe that we should present the gospel to everyone without discrimination, just as we are commanded. And I would not recommend anyone getting "hung up" on election if it proves to be a distraction to their faith. However, it is a thoroughly Biblical doctrine that is actually essential in how scripture defines salvation and the sovereignty of God. What's more, when understood properly it is among the most humbling, comforting, and awe inspiring elements of the Christian faith.

I just thought it interesting that it had not been brought up in a thread of this subject.

Blessings...

Oh I bring it up a lot on these forums, but for the most part it is in one ear and out the other. Just the nature of such a diverse forum. No big deal.

However I agree with you, it is vital to salvation to really understand election. I think that falls outside the scope of this topic though

 

[Heneni]

That is precisely what we don't know!

You may not, but the bible is pretty clear about this one. :sorry1:

2 Tess 1:8
8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[sojourner]

Read my tag line. Does that sound like the God you are painting?

Is this RF not evidence enough that some people just HATE God, and some people just think He is as real is the tooth fairy?

I agree that every knee will bow, as it is told. However you are discounting many places where God chose not to bring people ot heaven. Just because they will all bow, that does not mean they will go to heaven.

Take the flood for example, he found only 8 souls that were righteous, the rest he got rid of.

Please help me understand your side though, it doesn't make much sense right now.

Our thinking is morbidly individualistic. Neither the Jews nor Jesus thought in such individualistic terms. Righteousness, according to the OT was for all the people of God -- not for individuals. The prophets all speak in terms of the people, not the persons.

The flood story? An excellent literary example of a remnant. So is the story of the Exodus. yet, that remnant represents "all" -- not "me, me, and me."

I believe that God will save every person. Why?

Because God is God. God is love, and love dictates unconditionality, as shown in I Cor. 13 (and elsewhere).

Because God will. What does God will? That all God's children be with God.

Because God will save. That's God's "job." Otherwise, God would not have become one of us, according to John (and elsewhere).

Because God will save every person. God is omnipotent. God is omnipresent. God created all. Therefore, it follows that if God is always all -- then God's salvation will be all, too.

Because God will save every person. God counts the hairs on our heads. If God's so interested in that kind of detail, why would God leave out some of the details of the human family in God's salvific work?

Does this help?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Our thinking is morbidly individualistic. Neither the Jews nor Jesus thought in such individualistic terms. Righteousness, according to the OT was for all the people of God -- not for individuals. The prophets all speak in terms of the people, not the persons.

The flood story? An excellent literary example of a remnant. So is the story of the Exodus. yet, that remnant represents "all" -- not "me, me, and me."

I believe that God will save every person. Why?

Because God is God. God is love, and love dictates unconditionality, as shown in I Cor. 13 (and elsewhere).

Because God will. What does God will? That all God's children be with God.

Because God will save. That's God's "job." Otherwise, God would not have become one of us, according to John (and elsewhere).

Because God will save every person. God is omnipotent. God is omnipresent. God created all. Therefore, it follows that if God is always all -- then God's salvation will be all, too.

Because God will save every person. God counts the hairs on our heads. If God's so interested in that kind of detail, why would God leave out some of the details of the human family in God's salvific work?

Does this help?

OK so you have given a lot of opinion with to references two scripture.
The fact is there are children of the devil and children of God. Do I need to post that verse? Or are you familiar with it already? How do you answer for that verse?

 

[Heneni]

Fair enough my friend. I too believe that we should present the gospel to everyone without discrimination, just as we are commanded. And I would not recommend anyone getting "hung up" on election if it proves to be a distraction to their faith. However, it is a thoroughly Biblical doctrine that is actually essential in how scripture defines salvation and the sovereignty of God. What's more, when understood properly it is among the most humbling, comforting, and awe inspiring elements of the Christian faith.

I just thought it interesting that it had not been brought up in a thread of this subject.

Blessings...

The thing about election is that god elected those who would put their faith in him to save them.

I think the problem is that people think that universal forgiveness means universal salvation.

Even if jesus did forgive the whole world for their previous sins, it does not follow that they were placed IN christ on the cross in order to receive new life. In order to receive forgiveness jesus had to be punished, but in order to receive eternal life you have to believe in him.

Salvation does not come by forgiveness, salvation comes by faith in christ through grace.

Even if god did forgive the whole world for their sins, they still have to believe in jesus to be saved. Nobody is saved because jesus forgave you, you are saved because of faith in him and god's grace.

Somebody could forgive me for my sins, but that does not follow that i will put my faith in them to save me!

Heneni

 

[Michael Turner]

Heneni,

I'm trying to understand your position better. It sounds almost as if you are saying that when Christ died on the cross he did not actually secure the salvation of anyone, but rather provided an opportunity for man to exercise faith and then be saved. Sorry if I've got you all mixed up. Let me know...

 

[sojourner]

2 Tess 1:8
8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

"'Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people.' And the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people." Ex. 32:12b,14

"For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his faithfulness endures from age to age." Ps. 100:4

Even good earthly parents do not punish their children for ever. How much more merciful is our heavenly Father -- who is perfectly good? God will not punish for ever, either.

 

[sojourner]

OK so you have given a lot of opinion with to references two scripture.
The fact is there are children of the devil and children of God. Do I need to post that verse? Or are you familiar with it already? How do you answer for that verse?

Post the verse. I don't waste a lot of time on the devil. I'd rather weigh my time in favor of mercy and lovingkindness.