Died For Our Sins ?

[Heneni]

The bible does not give any indication that without faith one can be saved.

When christ returns visibly to this earth, faith would cease to exist. You wont need faith then, because you would have seen him!

1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

The goal of faith is salvation. No faith no salvation. If jesus becomes visible you wont need faith any longer.

And our faith is coming to an end for that reason.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Our faith is perishing, because when christ is revealed you wont need it anymore. And that faith has to proved genuine so that it may result in praise, glory and honor when jesus is revealed.

When jesus appears visibly we are told that all the nations beat their breasts. They dont have faith, they are not going to praise and give glory and honor to jesus when he is revealed. They will be wholly unhappy with his appearance.

 

[Freelancer7]

What I Love about this one is when I see religious preachers on the likes of the God Channel saying "We are OK he came for us, we love him so we are saved", when to, 'SIN' after realising that he came for SIN, is a SIN beyond SIN

 

[Heneni]

Neither is there any indication that there is a time frame for repentance. Why should it be necessary to limit God's mercy to a time frame? God's mercy is everlasting, as the Bible says.

And again, god does not need to show mercy to us when we are in heaven. Whatever for? Mercy is not getting what you do deserve. Can we in heaven do things that would require mercy?

God is everlasting and so his mercy is everlasting, its part of who he is, but no where does the bible say that god extends mercy during the end times, nor does it indicate that there is mercy in the lake of fire. God is still mercifull, but he is not boxed in to use that mercy whenever we think he should. There is a time for everything under heaven.

Heneni

 

[sojourner]

The bible does not give any indication that without faith one can be saved.

The Bible does hint as to whose faith is necessary, too.

When christ returns visibly to this earth, faith would cease to exist. You wont need faith then, because you would have seen him!

I see Christ every day in the poor, the outcast, the disenfranchised, and the hated. And I need the faith of Christ in order to accomplish that.

Our faith is perishing, because when christ is revealed you wont need it anymore.

An imperfect faith will engender only an imperfect reconciliation. That's why Christ's faith and Christ's work is perfectly efficacious for the sin of the world.

When jesus appears visibly we are told that all the nations beat their breasts. They dont have faith, they are not going to praise and give glory and honor to jesus when he is revealed. They will be wholly unhappy with his appearance.

They usually are every day, anyway. Why should "the end" be any different?

 

[sojourner]

And again, god does not need to show mercy to us when we are in heaven. Whatever for?

Because mercy is part and parcel of love, which never ends.

Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.

Neither is heaven what we deserve.

Can we in heaven do things that would require mercy?

Mercy doesn't require that we do anything. That would be placing a condition on love which, as the Bible tells us, is not conditional.

God is everlasting and so his mercy is everlasting, its part of who he is, but no where does the bible say that god extends mercy during the end times, nor does it indicate that there is mercy in the lake of fire.

Congrats! You just contradicted yourself.

God is still mercifull, but he is not boxed in to use that mercy whenever we think he should.

Nor is God boxed in from showing mercy whenever we think God shouldn't.
"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I show mercy." Ex 33:19b

There is a time for everything under heaven.

"I know that whatever God does endures for ever."
So?

 

[Heneni]

An imperfect faith will engender only an imperfect reconciliation. That's why Christ's faith and Christ's work is perfectly efficacious for the sin of the world.

God does not need faith to believe in himself. And god does not believe for you on your behalf.

He is the author and the finisher of our faith.

God cannot disown himself. The idea that god has faith borders on heresy. Because you are saying that god needs something to believe in himself.

God cannot not believe in himself. He cannot disown himself. He cannot do that because he does not need faith to be god.

I challenge you to give me one scripture in the bible that says GOD has faith. That god requires faith to believe in himself so that he can believe on behalf of all of us.

Did he not always say 'YOUR FAITH' has made you whole, ''your faith has healed you''.

 

[sojourner]

God does not need faith to believe in himself. And god does not believe for you on your behalf.

And yet the faith of Christ is enough.

He is the author and the finisher of our faith.

Jesus would be included in the "our."

God cannot disown himself.

Neither will God disown us.

The idea that god has faith borders on heresy.

So does the idea that we are capable of thwarting God's wishes.

Because you are saying that god needs something to believe in himself.

I said nothing of the sort. I don't know where you got that idea.

God cannot not believe in himself. He cannot disown himself. He cannot do that because he does not need faith to be god.

God can believe in us. God will not disown us. God will not do that because God is faithful. God will search for us until God finds us.

I challenge you to give me one scripture in the bible that says GOD has faith.

What makes you think I would need to do that?

Did he not always say 'YOUR FAITH' has made you whole, ''your faith has healed you''.

Not always.

 

[Heneni]

Because mercy is part and parcel of love, which never ends.

You are trying to be god and tell him when he should extend mercy.

Neither is heaven what we deserve.

WRONG, for those who believe in christ its their inheritance.

Mercy doesn't require that we do anything. That would be placing a condition on love which, as the Bible tells us, is not conditional.

Wrong, mercy is extended when you repent.

Nor is God boxed in from showing mercy whenever we think God shouldn't.
"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I show mercy." Ex 33:19b

Great, but now show me scripture in the NT that has nothing to do with ISRAEL, which you are conveniently forgetting the scripture is about, and also forgetting that that mercy would have been extended during THAT time.

"I know that whatever God does endures for ever."
So?

So you are trying to be god. Stick with scripture and try not to pick one or two that suits your doctrine.

Your doctrine here about universal salvation YOU think will bring glory to god.

Read the bible

Romans 9:22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Read that again! God chooses to show his wrath! And why does he do this? TO MAKE HIS RICHES OF HIS GLORY KNOWN TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY.

Does not seem to me that god has to show mercy at the expense of wrath.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

And yet the faith of Christ is enough.

The faith of christ??????

 

[sojourner]

You are trying to be god and tell him when he should extend mercy.

Aren't you telling God when not to?

Love is merciful. That's Biblical.
God is love. That's Biblical.
Love never ends. That's Biblical.
God's mercy endures for ever. That's Biblical.

The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made. (Ps. 145:8,9)

Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[sojourner]

The faith of christ??????

See Rom. 3:22. "through faith in Jesus..." can also be translated "through the faith of Jesus..."
In fact, if we do a word-for-word translation of that passage, it goes something like this:
"righteousness but of God through trust of Jesus Christ..."

 

[Heneni]

Aren't you telling God when not to?

Love is merciful. That's Biblical.
God is love. That's Biblical.
Love never ends. That's Biblical.
God's mercy endures for ever. That's Biblical.

The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made. (Ps. 145:8,9)

Pretty much sums it up for me.

yeh...now sum this one up for me too....

Romans 9:22
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

If you cant, it sums it up for me!

And this one too...

Jude 1:13
. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

:bonk: I can just see you in heaven telling god...''hey your mercy is suppose to be new every morning''.

''YEH sojourner, but there is no MORNING in heaven, nor is their NIGHT''

(did you notice?)

 

[Heneni]

See Rom. 3:22. "through faith in Jesus..." can also be translated "through the faith of Jesus..."
In fact, if we do a word-for-word translation of that passage, it goes something like this:
"righteousness but of God through trust of Jesus Christ..."

How convenient.

Christ does not have faith. Its really sad that you have to rely on 'mistranslations' to support your theology here. Try the rest of the bible that has not been mistranslated like

2 Cor 3:18
18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

You are actually thinking that every murderer, child molester, rapist, idolator, is reflecting the lords glory.

God is jelous of his glory. He's not into squishing as many sardines as he can into heaven. NOTHING impure shall enter heaven.

Revelations 21:27
27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[sojourner]

WRONG, for those who believe in christ its their inheritance.

So we deserve heaven? Why the overwhelming need for grace, then? Entitlement is not a Christian virtue, my friend. Nor is it comely.

Wrong, mercy is extended when you repent.

That would make the extension of mercy conditional upon something we do. Since mercy is part and parcel of love, and love is unconditional, I'd say I'm not wrong.

Great, but now show me scripture in the NT that has nothing to do with ISRAEL, which you are conveniently forgetting the scripture is about, and also forgetting that that mercy would have been extended during THAT time.

The Xian community sees itself as the true Israel. Your request is moot.

So you are trying to be god. Stick with scripture and try not to pick one or two that suits your doctrine.

You're projecting.

Your doctrine here about universal salvation YOU think will bring glory to god.

Read the bible

Romans 9:22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Read that again! God chooses to show his wrath! And why does he do this? TO MAKE HIS RICHES OF HIS GLORY KNOWN TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY.

Does not seem to me that god has to show mercy at the expense of wrath.

This passage explains how not all Israelites truly belong to Israel -- that it's not who you are, but whose you are. If you take the passage in context, its a diatribe for God's mercy -- not God's condemnation.

This is one of Paul's most obscure passages. And when Paul -- usually a clear writer -- becomes obscure, it's either because of a translational error, or because of his own embarrassment at going out on a theological limb he never intended.

Many scholars and translators think that the participle "desiring" should rightly be preceded by an "although." it would fit better with the rest of the diatribe.

 

[sojourner]

yeh...now sum this one up for me too....

Romans 9:22
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

If you cant, it sums it up for me!

See #174

I can just see you in heaven telling god...''hey your mercy is suppose to be new every morning''.

''YEH sojourner, but there is no MORNING in heaven, nor is their NIGHT''

I can just see you in heaven telling God, "Hey! We're supposed to be the only ones up here!"
"Yes, Heneni, but my mercy endures for ever."

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Sojourner & Heneni Please read the following:

You both are suppose to be Christians, and it seems nothing is getting resolved. Please consider the word faith.

It is true that we as individuals can and should have faith in Jesus and God for what they are. However, it is also true that we could never have this faith if Jesus was not faithful to do what He was suppose to do.

So while Sojourner is correct by saying it is Jesus's faith that all things are possible, it is also true that we are to have faith in Jesus to believe in what He said to believe in.

So Heneni, you have to understand that our faith would mean nothing if Jesus was not first faithful. So it can be concluded that the faith of Jesus trumps our faith, because one caused the other. Not the other way around. Heneni, I know you understand this, but it seems you two are butting heads for the wrong reasons.

Peace guys...

 

[sojourner]

How convenient.

Christ does not have faith. Its really sad that you have to rely on 'mistranslations' to support your theology here. Try the rest of the bible that has not been mistranslated like

2 Cor 3:18
18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

You are actually thinking that every murderer, child molester, rapist, idolator, is reflecting the lords glory.

God is jelous of his glory. He's not into squishing as many sardines as he can into heaven. NOTHING impure shall enter heaven.

Revelations 21:27
27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Actually, it's decidedly inconvenient. Look at the argument it's gotten me into with you!

He doesn't?
What, then, pray tell, caused him to say, "Not my will, but yours?" Jesus was fully human, and had faith like every other good, Godly person.

It's really sad that you have to rely on the "misinterpretation" card to maintain your argument. It's not a mistranslation. If you knew anything about Greek, you would know that.

"Are being transformed..." It's a process. A process through which God will continue to seek us until God finds us. (Also Biblical. The Good Shepherd will seek the lost sheep until he finds it.)

All humanity reflects the glory of God. Some areas are tarnished. God took care of that in the Incarnation, and will continue to make us new every day until.

Why not? How many souls constitute a full heaven? I submit that all of them do!
Don't you know that the word "glory" means "fat??" The more sardines, the fatter heaven will be!

At some point, all will be washed clean.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Sojourner it is also sad that you think you know more than Jesus. Was it not Jesus who said that in the last day there will be those that say, "let us come in, for we preached in your name" What was Jesus's reply? I am sure you know what it was, so I will just leave it at that.

Your ideology is neat and probably popular with many people because it paints God as a teddy bear. It is not sound in biblical doctrine though.

 

[Heneni]

So we deserve heaven?

Heaven is the sons inheritance. Does a son not deserve an inheritance. He doesnt work for it sure...but does he deserve not to get it because he is a son? Let me show you who will NEVER inherit the kingdom

1 Cor 6:9
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

Why the overwhelming need for grace, then? Entitlement is not a Christian virtue, my friend. Nor is it comely.

Grace saves. Grace and faith. Salvation is a gift. Cant work for it. But if you are a son, god has given you an inheritance

That would make the extension of mercy conditional upon something we do. Since mercy is part and parcel of love, and love is unconditional, I'd say I'm not wrong.

Mercy is conditional on the condition that god gives it.

Romans 9:17
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."G 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

The Xian community sees itself as the true Israel

I dont believe in replacement theology. I believe that god wanted to choose a new group of people for himself and they are called christians. Jew or gentile. But isreal has a covenant with god that he will not turn away from.

Ephesians 2:14
His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility

This is one of Paul's most obscure passages. And when Paul -- usually a clear writer -- becomes obscure, it's either because of a translational error, or because of his own embarrassment at going out on a theological limb he never intended.

Paul is far less obscure than you are at the moment.

Many scholars and translators think that the participle "desiring" should rightly be preceded by an "although." it would fit better with the rest of the diatribe

Paul was an excellent scholar. I trust what he says.

Heneni

 

[Freelancer7]

''YEH sojourner, but there is no MORNING in heaven, nor is their NIGHT''

(did you notice?)

Like it, do you think it is possible that your thoughts are heaven, a sure place there is no night and no day???