Difference Between Church and Star Trek?

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes and the beliefs that Star Trek espouses are also at times directly counter to those of your friendly neighborhood church. However, if we abstract the church-goer a tad and understand him or her as a religion-goer, then we may have some room to say that the moral values don't have to be similar to recognize the underlying need and motivation for the contemplation of moral values is one and the same.

The similarities end there. Under religion you're told what to do. With Star Trek we find characters who have to rationalize, ponder, and consider the consequences of their decisions in regards to morality and ethics instead of being spoon fed a passage from an ancient book. Even the Prime Directive is questioned and broken as well as the pains of "life boat ethics" explored. When Star Trek says kill a child, every angle of it is explored and questioned - When god says kill a child the child gets tied to an alter.

 

[stvdv]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one - Spock
Because the needs of the one... outweigh the needs of the many. - Kirk

Now this is classic spiritual stuff right here! Where the rational fits into a higher systemic reality in which both propositions are true in their respective contexts. This is how the spiritual epics should be read as well.

If there are 2 billion Christians to whom God gave Bible AND 1 billion (to be) Muslims without Scripture God knows these 1 billion also needs specific scripture to their culture

When God or Jesus incarnates again He won't go to the Christians (they already claim to have the Truth) so He will go to the few who are thirsty and open to learn His Truth

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Sounds silly...but I would argue this is a critical question regarding the nature of religious belief and practice. Will explain as the discussion progresses...

The Trekkie will get a better grounding in ethics. He’ll also be better able to extract meaning from stories without assuming that they literally happened.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Sounds silly...but I would argue this is a critical question regarding the nature of religious belief and practice. Will explain as the discussion progresses...

To sociologist Clifford Geertz, religion is:

1) A system of symbols which act to

2) Establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in humans by

3) Formulating conceptions of a formal order of existence and

4) Clothing these conceptions with such an order of factuality that

5) The moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic

I think that definition of religion would apply to following Star Trek as well as it would to any religion. Others have applied these five traits to those who follow soccer and other sports, as well as to economic, social and political ideologies, such as capitalism, democracy, nationalism, humanism, and so on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To sociologist Clifford Geertz, religion is:

1) A system of symbols which act to

2) Establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in humans by

3) Formulating conceptions of a formal order of existence and

4) Clothing these conceptions with such an order of factuality that

5) The moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic

I think that definition of religion would apply to following Star Trek as well as it would to any religion. Others have applied these five traits to those who follow soccer and other sports, as well as to economic, social and political ideologies, such as capitalism, democracy, nationalism, humanism, and so on.

Please don't try to co-opt Star Trek for religion.

 

[sealchan]

The similarities end there. Under religion you're told what to do. With Star Trek we find characters who have to rationalize, ponder, and consider the consequences of their decisions in regards to morality and ethics instead of being spoon fed a passage from an ancient book. Even the Prime Directive is questioned and broken as well as the pains of "life boat ethics" explored. When Star Trek says kill a child, every angle of it is explored and questioned - When god says kill a child the child gets tied to an alter.

What about Abraham and his son Isaac? To me this appears to be a story about the Abrahamic God putting an end to the practice of human sacrifice?

It is true that Star Trek is by far more self-conscious and offers a more explicit diversity of perspective. This is because, I think, the modern mind has progressed in such a way to be able to handle this better.

The Bible is actually more advanced that it appears to many...and given that literacy was a special skill back in the day, the ability to think from multiple perspectives at once, which I think was greatly aided by the technology of written language, may not have been as available and certainly not as often experienced as it is in today's post-literate world.

But if one takes a more literary perspective of the Bible one can find in at least some significant cases that there is a greater subtlety to it about the nature of the human experience.

Now Star Trek is also known for its squeaky clean and preachy moments, but also as you describe it displays a very sophisticated ability to examine its own moral grounds. I remember the Star Trek: Enterprise episode where the captain literally steals by force some technological equipment from a alien species in order to accomplish something that was needed. That was a very interesting moral line to cross for the series.

There is something in the childish attitude toward sacred teachings that seems to make people think that the literality is essential to accountability. If it isn't literally true then I don't really need to be that good. But on the other hand people bend over backwards to be so fake and pure in front of others that I think that "advantage" is more than compensated for as an equal disadvantage. It is hard sometimes for Christians to have real conversations about their personal temptations because they open themselves to easy judgment from their preachy fellow church goers.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Sounds silly...but I would argue this is a critical question regarding the nature of religious belief and practice. Will explain as the discussion progresses...

I can't think of no other reason than people just like it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Please don't try to co-opt Star Trek for religion.

Except for Spock when he meditates to control his emotions.

 

[sealchan]

To sociologist Clifford Geertz, religion is:

1) A system of symbols which act to

2) Establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in humans by

3) Formulating conceptions of a formal order of existence and

4) Clothing these conceptions with such an order of factuality that

5) The moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic

I think that definition of religion would apply to following Star Trek as well as it would to any religion. Others have applied these five traits to those who follow soccer and other sports, as well as to economic, social and political ideologies, such as capitalism, democracy, nationalism, humanism, and so on.

In this sense I see Star Trek as a kind of story-telling branch of the humanist, pluralistic and scientific mindset. It also explores something beyond its assumed basic atheism in Deep Space Nine, but I think one can safely assume that the "God is powerful enough aliens" motif is the series life-long stop gap against any basis in a pure belief.

And really I find the "God is a powerful enough alien" idea to not be counter to religious belief in any fundamental way either. It is an interesting insight into the relative limitations of any knower (God included) in the context of how that knower relates to the rest of the Universe where multiple knowers may exist at differing layers of reality...

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Please don't try to co-opt Star Trek for religion.

Who is trying to do that? Certainly not me. I'm trying to point out that many human endeavors engender very similar patterns of symbology and practice. I don't see that such similarity makes being a fan of Star Trek into a religion (although Jediism is recognized as a religion...). Geertz's model does, however, show that the typical dictionary definition of religion is inadequate and that 'religion' is very similar to other human endeavors.

 

[sealchan]

Please don't try to co-opt Star Trek for religion.

Too late!

But I assume your concerns are regarding any attempt to de-legitimize Star Trek's perspective by making it the same as a religion.

But how about we say that Star Trek (and other epic modern series like it) provide a perspective from which we can critique the value and effectiveness of those older religious imaginal realities?

 

[sealchan]

I can't think of no other reason than people just like it.

Well that is an understandable, but naive, perspective which ignores the many and rich contributions that the various psychological schools can offer us about why humans do what they do.

We are much more sphexish than we might like to believe. There are reasons or at least evolutionary patterns that explain why we do what we do and why we like what we like. Fictional stories are a universally valued commodity in human culture. Our species propensity for religion works because religion is the result of an evolutionary process whereby today's remaining religions have survived culturally with amazing tenacity despite great cultural changes over the course of their history.

Why this is is a matter for reflection and even scientific study.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Bible is actually more advanced that it appears to many...

The commandments for the army of Hebrews to kill everyone except the virgin women who are taken as sex slaves and considered plunders of war alone makes the Bible primitive, crude, and barbaric.
Star Trek was for the better having Roddenberry fighting against the network to keep chaplains out of the USS Enterprise.The philosophy of Star Trek is clear that Roddenberry felt religion is obsolete and has no place in society anymore.

 

[Holdasown]

Please don't try to co-opt Star Trek for religion.

One of the movies already did that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Except for Spock when he meditates to control his emotions.

Meditation < > religion

 

[Twilight Hue]

Meditation < > religion

What about the Klingons?

 

[sealchan]

The commandments for the army of Hebrews to kill everyone except the virgin women who are taken as sex slaves and considered plunders of war alone makes the Bible primitive, crude, and barbaric.
Star Trek was for the better having Roddenberry fighting against the network to keep chaplains out of the USS Enterprise.The philosophy of Star Trek is clear that Roddenberry felt religion is obsolete and has no place in society anymore.

I won't dispute that. I haven't studied closely that portion of the Bible yet so I can't offer a particular defense if such is even possible.

But I think it is very important to understand that the stories in the Bible come from a culture where annihilation by a greater power was a constant possibility and it may, in that context, be understood that a less powerful people might dream of some sort of divine revenge.

Star Trek comes out of a culture which has had the, perhaps, historic luxury of being a dominant force in recent history. We are the big bully in the room of nations. We try to be much better than that...current administration notwithstanding of course. So to the extent that Star Trek models a reality where one can safely practice ones morals un-spotted by the temptation to exceed them, it may be a little too easy to judge stories from other cultures who have never know such luxury of safety. That is a somewhat privileged perspective to have although that is not a basis to totally dismiss the value of that perspective.

Now to Star Trek's great credit they have addressed this theme in many ways. Perhaps the greatest example is the Federation and Borg conflict. Also the Federation-Dominion war addresses this as well. War is all hell and any nations morals tend to deteriorate rapidly in the war zone.

So I honor your critique of the Bible and it does need to be addressed. I cannot address it now personally, but I think it is addressable.

 

[sealchan]

Meditation < > religion

The Vulcan discipline has all the "earmarks" (get it?, earmarks!) of being understood as the religion of logic. There are ceremonies, disciplines and the possibility for expulsion I believe (was that in Enterprise?). It is Buddhistic but not the same as the elimination of emotion is not the primary value.

The Klingons have a warrior cult like myth similar perhaps to the Nordic tradition (aka watch Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung).

Both of these religions are contained within the greater cultural and moral ethic of religious tolerance that is the ethos of the series.

This is an interesting point and it shows a contrast between the more aggressive stance of the so-called new atheist. Where does the Star Trek series stand on this?

Star Trek distinguishes itself, perhaps, on this inclusion of a reality containing multiple religions and pits individuals in Starfleet with choices regarding how to act and interact in the face of such a plurality of beliefs. Star Trek is meta-religious?

 

[sealchan]

The Trekkie will get a better grounding in ethics. He’ll also be better able to extract meaning from stories without assuming that they literally happened.

This is precisely a point that I would fully agree with.

Modern religion can take lessons from modern science fiction when it comes to being smart about current knowledge and open and honest about real world issues. How is it that the religious find themselves having to support antiquated values from cultures whose experience has long since been eclipsed?

As a Christian, these days, I have to say that literalism is a cancer on the moral quality of my religion and secular ethical discussions are often superior to those that are generated out of faith-based discussions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Star Trek comes out of a culture which has had the, perhaps, historic luxury of being a dominant force in recent history. We are the big bully in the room of nations. We try to be much better than that...current administration notwithstanding of course. So to the extent that Star Trek models a reality where one can safely practice ones morals un-spotted by the temptation to exceed them, it may be a little too easy to judge stories from other cultures who have never know such luxury of safety. That is a somewhat privileged perspective to have although that is not a basis to totally dismiss the value of that perspective.

It has nothing to do with coming from a dominate culture but acknowledging the basic rights that all humans should possess, including the fact humans are not property to own and command. What America as a state does is not based upon the Enlightened ideals and values that Western values are based on.

Now to Star Trek's great credit they have addressed this theme in many ways. Perhaps the greatest example is the Federation and Borg conflict. Also the Federation-Dominion war addresses this as well. War is all hell and any nations morals tend to deteriorate rapidly in the war zone.

Jehovah is more comparable to the Dominion. The Federation allows for the freedoms we value and cherish the most. The Dominion expects people to kneel and obey by default. It isn't necessary, but when god says to invade the followers of god tend to obey.