Difference Between Church and Star Trek?

[Jumi]

Star Trek was nice, there were quite a few interesting moments in it as well as some episodes that weren't worth mentioning. TNG was the best of it. If I would compare it to scripture, I think it comes close to being one, if one wants to. I can understand it's been even life changing for some. Though like in religion, there are those folks who take it to the next level.

 

[stvdv]

08 sep 2018 stvdv advaita

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Advaita Wisdom tries to make us aware that "the world reality we see is an illusion"

Movie Industry tries to make us believe that "the DVD illusion we see is a reality"

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Pretty sure you're not allowed to send red clothed church members on missions of certain death.

 

[Stevicus]

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Sounds silly...but I would argue this is a critical question regarding the nature of religious belief and practice. Will explain as the discussion progresses...

I suppose there might be some similarities. I wouldn't say that Star Trek is a "religion," per se, although as a Trekker myself, I would say that I've encountered a number of fans who might see it along those lines.

One example that comes to mind is in how some have come up with "in universe" explanations for discrepancies in the show, such as why do Klingons look different in TOS than they do in other Trek series? Or any other kind of discrepancy or contradiction when you have multiple writers and producers making shows about the same universe.

Instead of simply admitting that "someone goofed," I've seen elaborate explanations contrived in order to give some kind of justification so that it can plausibly remain within the loosely defined boundaries of "canon."

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm just starting into a lecture on YouTube from Daniel Dennett:

The Evolution of Religion by Daniel Dennett

He promises to offer a new angle on the scientific study of religion from a very evolutionary perspective. The persistence of a religion as a part of a human culture, its spread between cultures and its longevity over time all suggest that there is something worth wanting to understand about religion.

Thanks I skipped the first 15 minutes but otherwise watched the whole thing and took notes. I hope when my beard is white that I will be as knowledgeable and speak with such erudition.

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Sounds silly...but I would argue this is a critical question regarding the nature of religious belief and practice. Will explain as the discussion progresses...

Star Trek was my introduction to philosophical ideas. I initially dismissed some of its axioms, such as the notion of a utopian future where humanity no longer used money or even paychecks. At the same time that idea became a strong meme for me. 'Utopia' became an ideal though not the old Greek idea of it. I though the idea that emotions were somehow mystical was wrong, but it was somewhere to start thinking about these kinds of questions such as what are emotions and how does thinkong happen. These were contributions that drama provided which all of my schooling and churching had neglected and which I might havd overlooked or scoffed at.

 

[sealchan]

An interesting question.

There are several Star Treks, from different eras ─ Primitive, which behind Shattner + Nimoy, clunky effects, and all the fist fights and set-your-phasers-to-stun, reflects Roddenberry's humanist outlook: the good guys boldly go, help, show respect, reach out, do the right thing, expand human knowledge, use reason, solve problems. Generations had a much bigger budget, much better plotting, a captain (Paddy Stewart) who could act, and was Star Trek's high tide, even more visibly and effectively humanist. (Then the duller Soap, with Janeway, and Losing Your Grip with Archer, and so on. The Reboot with J.J. Abrams is a step towards Marveldom, but still with the humanist ideals in there somewhere.)

In short, all Star Treks set out to tell tales with a particular moral PoV which now and then can get a bit close to preachy, but gee it looks good in the Age of Trump.

How does that differ from going to church? Well, no one gets worshiped, is the most striking thing for me ─ simple admiration will do it, and you can be as critical as you like. Oh, and there's no collection, no tithing, no fetes ...

You have to pay to watch the new series...does that count? Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[sealchan]

Well, the similarity would be that both devotees find a community of others that cares about something as much as they do. They will find 'services worldwide', though a great many trekkies only communicate through the internet, which has a lot of in-built limitations. A service gives personal contact with other devotees, and the added benefits of communal sacrifice or prayer.

As for the differences, well, it's mostly that fandom isn't spirituality. A spiritual community can help you overcome a great deal of adversity in your life by giving you the tools needed to confront life on it's own terms when it's being difficult to handle.

Fandom mostly gives you tools needed to distract yourself and get into arguments with others over pointless ****.

I think that this is an interesting idea...Star Trek isn't spiritual. This might relate to how science isn't seen as spiritual. This proceeds perhaps from how science is standoffish from the perspective of personal meaning...you may like or love science but science doesnt like you. Science isn't about your personal subjective reality only about its objective reality.

Now science fiction, or Roddenberrys particular vision of it, mixes every element of religious story into it's own narrative...intentionally. We have morality, expressions of vastly superior power, knowledge, even foresight, critical internal struggles, etc...

What I am suggesting here is that humanity, as a whole, is moving beyond the need for a literal supernatural power to pledge an allegiance to, in favor of a more creative array of fictional superpowers in which one can find ones self in. In both cases one is confronted with a reality greater than ones self, forced to consider what actions are right and worthwhile, and also given an opportunity to witness the strangeness and power and mystery of the Universe.

Scholarship regarding our ancient spiritual epics is showing more and more that these texts didn't arise out of a vacuum but from a rich tradition of storytelling. Stories were incorporated as is or altered to suit the needs of the audience.

In a similar fashion Star Trek exists in a world of TV series which rise and fall based on viewership (and advertising revenue).

I think that humanity is progressing beyond the need to think is has to force itself to believe in a certain fairy tale and toward an understanding that we can actively enjoy and take seriously (but not too seriously) immersion in a variety of imaginable realms. Such "trips" are not irresponsible escapes from reality, but vital and revitalizing food for our souls, our psychological health.

 

[sealchan]

Pretty sure you're not allowed to send red clothed church members on missions of certain death.

He who seeks to save his life....

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Star Trek isn't spiritual. This might relate to how science isn't seen as spiritual. This proceeds perhaps from how science is standoffish from the perspective of personal meaning

In a sense I agree with you here, but many scientists, notably including figures such as Einstein, Sagan, Oppenheimer, Russell and many more, talk of their AWE of nature. No it is not the universe caring for or about humans as a group or in particular, but nature is awe-inspiring, and discovering more about nature through science is even more awe-inspiring. Awe is often part of the dictionary and specialist definitions of spirituality and religion.

Certainly, for me personally, moving away from organized religion, especially the monotheistic religious complex within which I was raised and spent much of my early adulthood, has only increased the awe I feel in the world. Star Trek was part of that, as well as a lot of other science fiction...but reading the texts of and about other religions, as well as some philosophy also contributed...

 

[dianaiad]

It doesn't sound like you've ever seen or attended a Star Trek convention...

(grin) I haven't, but not because I didn't want to. However, such conventions prove my point here; no matter how much fan fiction gets written, or how many cosplay events occur, not a single one of those folks can change so much as a camera angle or line of dialogue in any of the shows.

 

[dianaiad]

They are shaping the world with it. Star Trek inspired people to be scientists. Their love for the show didn't just vanish.
And what of Star Trek games? Cosplay? The discussions about it here on RF? Robert Nozick wrote of a thought experiment called the Spock Problem, I wrote a paper about it in college explaining Nozick basically had no idea what he was talking about when it comes to Spock and Vulcans (truly, he was very wrong in several regards), and my philosophy teacher and I both agreed it felt like a philosophy class should give an acknowledgement to Leonard Nimoy when he died. That is certainly more than just watching a television show.

Of course.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm a 'trekkie,' too, mildly. However, watching a Star Trek episode isn't even close to going to church.

....................though come to think of it, I DID use a Star Trek episode as a teaching example IN church once, and I do appreciate that my own belief system is the only religion ever actually mentioned by name in the series.

 

[sealchan]

(grin) I haven't, but not because I didn't want to. However, such conventions prove my point here; no matter how much fan fiction gets written, or how many cosplay events occur, not a single one of those folks can change so much as a camera angle or line of dialogue in any of the shows.

I'm not sure I understand your concern about changing the dialogue or camera angle. Can you say more about this?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

(grin) I haven't, but not because I didn't want to. However, such conventions prove my point here; no matter how much fan fiction gets written, or how many cosplay events occur, not a single one of those folks can change so much as a camera angle or line of dialogue in any of the shows.

Can a follower of Christianity change the text of the Bible, or take on the role of the Priest/minister without training? Can they change the rituals? That's not a whole lot different from not being able to change to "text" of the episodes and movies, or star in the shows.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What about the Klingons?

In Deep Space 9? Worf admits that in the past, Klingons had gods-- but they were forced to kill all their gods, as they were too troublesome to keep them around.

I think the Klingons were on to something there...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What about the Klingons?

What about them?

 

[dianaiad]

I'm not sure I understand your concern about changing the dialogue or camera angle. Can you say more about this?

The OP asked this:

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

I was attempting to deal with the differences between the people who go to church, and the people who watch Star Trek, which I took as a comparison between the events: church going and tv show watching.

When one goes to church, one participates in the service, and by doing so, changes it...perhaps subtly (perhaps one only alters whether one responds properly to a 'call and response' moment, for instance), but it is changed. In some, perhaps many, cases, one's church attendance can fundamentally change the course of the event for you and everybody else who attends.

When one watches Star Trek, one's 'participation' is limited entirely to reacting to what is on the screen. No matter how involved one thinks one is, no reaction to the show will change a single word, camera angle, wardrobe choice or expression on a character's face.

the two, in other words, are not comparable.

On the other hand, I've now read a bunch of the posts on this thread and a couple of people have made a pretty good point, I think. You can't compare the people who go to church to the people who watch Star Trek, but you CAN, it seems obvious, compare the Star Trek franchise to those books many religions consider to be scriptures.

...(grin)...complete with all the arguments about what something REALLY means....

Now me, I'm a 'mini-Trekkie.." that is, I don't attend the conventions, don't do the cosplay, and although I think I've seen all the episodes of the live Star Trek stuff, I haven't seen the animated series and probably won't get all excited about the new one. Probably....and I don't get all gooey about reruns.

I know, I know, heresy!...

And that might be the point, come to think....

 

[blü 2]

You have to pay to watch the new series...does that count?

Good call, since I understand you can still go to many churches even if you don't ante up.

Still, on what I take to be the point you're making in the OP, yes, churches and Star Trek reruns have in common that their fans like the presentations because, to some extent, and consciously or unconsciously, they like the outlook / culture / philosophy expressed.

And I suppose the contrast could be phrased 'God or Man', though it doesn't really feel like that to me; as I said, I think worship is the big difference.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

What are the similarities and differences between someone who faithfully attends church services and someone who religiously watches new Star Trek episodes?

Sounds silly...but I would argue this is a critical question regarding the nature of religious belief and practice. Will explain as the discussion progresses...

Typically, the Star Trek enthusiast recognizes he/she is watching fiction, while the churchgoer believes that the supernatural events being discussed are 100% real. Other than that, there isn't much difference. I remember reading that Mike Dirnt (a member of the Green Day band) created his own religion primarily from what he learned on Star Wars or Star Trek (can't recall which one), so in this case it seems like it could be a literal religious experience.

 

[dianaiad]

Can a follower of Christianity change the text of the Bible, or take on the role of the Priest/minister without training? Can they change the rituals? That's not a whole lot different from not being able to change to "text" of the episodes and movies, or star in the shows.

I know....and I addressed this in another post. The problem is that the OP wasn't comparing, say, the Bible (or Quran or the Vedas or whatever) to Star Trek. It was asking us to compare the people going to church with the people who watch Star Trek.

"Going to church" is a different event from reading the scriptures. Believe it or not, a whole bunch of church goers don't actually READ the scriptures their religion is based on. They depend upon their preacher/pastor/Immam/whatever to read and interpret them FOR the church goer.

So I'd go with a comparison between Star Trek and books of scripture. I might even have a ball with it. I wouldn't compare watching Star Trek to attending church.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I know....and I addressed this in another post. The problem is that the OP wasn't comparing, say, the Bible (or Quran or the Vedas or whatever) to Star Trek. It was asking us to compare the people going to church with the people who watch Star Trek.

"Going to church" is a different event from reading the scriptures. Believe it or not, a whole bunch of church goers don't actually READ the scriptures their religion is based on. They depend upon their preacher/pastor/Immam/whatever to read and interpret them FOR the church goer.

So I'd go with a comparison between Star Trek and books of scripture. I might even have a ball with it. I wouldn't compare watching Star Trek to attending church.

Okay, I (finally) get what you're saying. Thanks for playing along with me!

So, what might also be equivalent would be people who watch Star Trek, and people who watch church services and the like on TV...as they cannot interact or contribute to the production...