Difference Between Church and Star Trek?

[Shadow Wolf]

....................though come to think of it, I DID use a Star Trek episode as a teaching example IN church once, and I do appreciate that my own belief system is the only religion ever actually mentioned by name in the series.

Kirk confronted some of the Olympians themselves and declared humanity has outgrown god. And then it mentions the Vulcans had a religion when they were primitive, and the Klingons presumably literally killed their gods because their gods were more trouble than they were worth.

 

[dianaiad]

Kirk confronted some of the Olympians themselves and declared humanity has outgrown god. And then it mentions the Vulcans had a religion when they were primitive, and the Klingons presumably literally killed their gods because their gods were more trouble than they were worth.

ooookaaayyy.....

(grin) that you didn't get my joke/reference tells me that as a trekkie, you blew it.

Never mind.

However, here's a hint. Think.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

ooookaaayyy.....

The Mormon church isn't the only religion mentioned in the series.

 

[dianaiad]

The Mormon church isn't the only religion mentioned in the series.

Indeed?

Religions were mentioned, but as far as I am aware, they were all invented for the series.

Weren't they?

I'll admit that I don't know of any, but hey. I could well be wrong.

 

[Stevicus]

Indeed?

Religions were mentioned, but as far as I am aware, they were all invented for the series.

Weren't they?

I'll admit that I don't know of any, but hey. I could well be wrong.

There were some references to religion, such as the closing scene in "Bread and Circuses":


Captain's log, stardate 4041.7. Note commendation, Engineering Officer Scott. Despite enormous temptation

> [Bridge]

KIRK: And strong personal feelings, he obeyed the Prime Directive. His temporary blackout of the city below resulted in no interference with the society and yet saved the lives of myself and the landing party.
SCOTT: Thank you, Captain.
(Scott leaves as McCoy and Spock enter the Bridge.)
KIRK: Gentlemen.
MCCOY: Captain, I see on your report Flavius was killed. I am sorry. I liked that huge sun worshiper.
SPOCK: I wish we could have examined that belief of his more closely. It seems illogical for a sun worshiper to develop a philosophy of total brotherhood. Sun worship is usually a primitive superstition religion.
UHURA: I'm afraid you have it all wrong, Mister Spock, all of you. I've been monitoring some of their old-style radio waves, the empire spokesman trying to ridicule their religion. But he couldn't. Don't you understand? It's not the sun up in the sky. It's the Son of God.
KIRK: Caesar and Christ. They had them both. And the word is spreading only now.
MCCOY: A philosophy of total love and total brotherhood.
SPOCK: It will replace their imperial Rome, but it will happen in their twentieth century.
KIRK: Wouldn't it be something to watch, to be a part of? To see it happen all over again? Mister Chekov, take us out of orbit. Ahead warp factor one.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir.

God is also mentioned in "The Ultimate Computer":

KIRK: This is Captain Kirk. You will be under attack in a moment.
M5: Sensors have recorded approach of ships.
KIRK: You have already rendered one starship either dead or hopelessly crippled. Many lives were lost.
M5: The ships attacked this unit. This unit must survive.
KIRK: Why?
M5: This unit is the ultimate achievement in computer evolution. It will replace man, so man may achieve. Man must not risk death in space or other dangerous occupations. This unit must survive so man may be protected.
SPOCK: Captain, attack force almost within phaser range.
KIRK: There were many men aboard those ships. They were murdered. Must you survive by murder?
M5: This unit cannot murder.
KIRK: Why?
M5: Murder is contrary to the laws of man and God.
KIRK: But you have murdered. Scan the starship Excalibur, which you destroyed. Is there life aboard?
M5: No life.
KIRK: Because you murdered it. What is the penalty for murder?
M5: Death.
KIRK: And how will you pay for your acts of murder?
M5: This unit must die.
(It disconnects itself from the power feed in Engineering and goes dark.)

And then there was "The Omega Glory" (an episode many Trekkers count among the worst, but it's actually a favorite of mine), in which a society uses the US flag and Constitution to make it into their religion and "holy word":

Then there was this, from "The Paradise Syndrome":

"I am Kirok!"

 

[dianaiad]

There were some references to religion, such as the closing scene in "Bread and Circuses":
<snip>

Several episodes reference religion, but as your examples show, they were invented for the series, and not specific religions that we actually have here. Some of them take elements of religions with which we may be familiar, but they are still inventions for the series.

I was simply making a joke. My own faith was not actually mentioned in terms of beliefs or doctrines or anything. It was a 'word play' thing.

Mormons all thought it was very funny, though I'm quite certain that most Trekkies totally miss it.

 

[Stevicus]

Several episodes reference religion, but as your examples show, they were invented for the series, and not specific religions that we actually have here. Some of them take elements of religions with which we may be familiar, but they are still inventions for the series.

I was simply making a joke. My own faith was not actually mentioned in terms of beliefs or doctrines or anything. It was a 'word play' thing.

Mormons all thought it was very funny, though I'm quite certain that most Trekkies totally miss it.

Well, I did get the "LDS" reference, although I'm not sure if that's what was intended.

But I think a lot of TV shows back in that era were probably reluctant to mention any specific religion, even if religion might play a role in the story. Like old westerns might have had a town church, but it would usually be some generic church of no specifically identified denomination. I recall an episode of "The Brady Bunch" where Carol had laryngitis just before she was supposed to sing at the church's Christmas service, but they don't mention the actual denomination.

 

[sealchan]

Good call, since I understand you can still go to many churches even if you don't ante up.

Still, on what I take to be the point you're making in the OP, yes, churches and Star Trek reruns have in common that their fans like the presentations because, to some extent, and consciously or unconsciously, they like the outlook / culture / philosophy expressed.

And I suppose the contrast could be phrased 'God or Man', though it doesn't really feel like that to me; as I said, I think worship is the big difference.

No one gets worshipped...that triggered something for me and when I woke up this morning I thought...there is no residual metaphysics in Star Trek to believe in as anever-present reality.

This contrasts with The Force in Star Wars. Interestingly when the Midichlorians were introduced, how many Star Wars fans thought that was a bad idea? I was okay with it, but I recognize that that was a "God is an advanced enough or strange enough alien species" move that is a constant in Star Trek.

Did Star Wars cross a significant boundary here into Star Trek's worldview that indicates a significant difference between what goes in inside the mind, heart and soul of a church goer vs a Star Trek TV episode watcher?

Take home (to reality) metaphysics?

 

[sealchan]

Okay, I (finally) get what you're saying. Thanks for playing along with me!

So, what might also be equivalent would be people who watch Star Trek, and people who watch church services and the like on TV...as they cannot interact or contribute to the production...

What if Star Trek added a touch of Bollywood and there were songs? What if people gathered to gather in audiences and sang along?

At the college I attended (The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington) the student body was just nerdy enough to arrange use of the auditorium for a viewing of a two part season opening episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation. No singing.

 

[blü 2]

No one gets worshipped...that triggered something for me and when I woke up this morning I thought...there is no residual metaphysics in Star Trek to believe in as an ever-present reality.

Just so. Even Q is presented as simply from a very advanced civilization. Troy, of course, is a telepath, and mind-voices crop up in various forms, but I can't recall telekenesis. Or clairvoyance. They do travel in time occasionally, though, sometimes solving the problem by making it never happen, a knowledge paradox. Am I overlooking something(s)? Oh, and Star Trek Generations (movie) Kirk was living what was essentially an idyllic post-mortal existence, palmed off as a separate continuum or other-realm.

This contrasts with The Force in Star Wars. Interestingly when the Midichlorians were introduced, how many Star Wars fans thought that was a bad idea? I was okay with it, but I recognize that that was a "God is an advanced enough or strange enough alien species" move that is a constant in Star Trek.

Did Star Wars cross a significant boundary here into Star Trek's worldview that indicates a significant difference between what goes in inside the mind, heart and soul of a church goer vs a Star Trek TV episode watcher?

The Force. like Yoda's robe and hood, the idea of an Order of Knights, and the strict passing of wisdom kind of training, and initiation, have always tapped Christian / Asian practice and precedent for look and style. And why anyone would fight with a light saber when an automatic would do escapes me. So it's one thing to fall back on a Midichlorian rationalization towards science, but short of a whole new style, indeed a step into the Star Trek universe, I don't see how it fits with the believing psyche of Star Wars fandom.

 

[sealchan]

Just so. Even Q is presented as simply from a very advanced civilization. Troy, of course, is a telepath, and mind-voices crop up in various forms, but I can't recall telekenesis. Or clairvoyance. They do travel in time occasionally, though, sometimes solving the problem by making it never happen, a knowledge paradox. Am I overlooking something(s)? Oh, and Star Trek Generations (movie) Kirk was living what was essentially an idyllic post-mortal existence, palmed off as a separate continuum or other-realm.
The Force. like Yoda's robe and hood, the idea of an Order of Knights, and the strict passing of wisdom kind of training, and initiation, have always tapped Christian / Asian practice and precedent for look and style. And why anyone would fight with a light saber when an automatic would do escapes me. So it's one thing to fall back on a Midichlorian rationalization towards science, but short of a whole new style, indeed a step into the Star Trek universe, I don't see how it fits with the believing psyche of Star Wars fandom.

I think that the Force gives the would be believer some metaphysical reality that they might hold out some hope for as being a real reality. This is a meme that is a wellspring of possibility for a human mind open for it to take hold and grow. There isn't an equivalent meme from Star Trek of a metaphysical kind.

Now if we take the idea of our very own existence as a metaphysical proposition, the existence of our soul or spirit, then the Force strengthens that imaginal fantasy with an objective metaphysical reality perhaps.

 

[sealchan]

Just so. Even Q is presented as simply from a very advanced civilization. Troy, of course, is a telepath, and mind-voices crop up in various forms, but I can't recall telekenesis. Or clairvoyance. They do travel in time occasionally, though, sometimes solving the problem by making it never happen, a knowledge paradox. Am I overlooking something(s)? Oh, and Star Trek Generations (movie) Kirk was living what was essentially an idyllic post-mortal existence, palmed off as a separate continuum or other-realm.
The Force. like Yoda's robe and hood, the idea of an Order of Knights, and the strict passing of wisdom kind of training, and initiation, have always tapped Christian / Asian practice and precedent for look and style. And why anyone would fight with a light saber when an automatic would do escapes me. So it's one thing to fall back on a Midichlorian rationalization towards science, but short of a whole new style, indeed a step into the Star Trek universe, I don't see how it fits with the believing psyche of Star Wars fandom.

In the Western tradition we have Excalibur, a sword that stood for balance and truth. This is, perhaps, the sword of Jesus United with a Celtic goddess. In the east there is the idea of the sword as an expression of the spiritual character of its wielder. The gun is about fear and anger but it has some of the same associations.

Perhaps the sword allows for more of a purely defensive response to aggression. Witness the deflection of blaster shots...this heightens the sense of the confidence and mastery of the sword-saber wielder over the safety of the long range weapon user.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, I did get the "LDS" reference, although I'm not sure if that's what was intended.

But I think a lot of TV shows back in that era were probably reluctant to mention any specific religion, even if religion might play a role in the story. Like old westerns might have had a town church, but it would usually be some generic church of no specifically identified denomination. I recall an episode of "The Brady Bunch" where Carol had laryngitis just before she was supposed to sing at the church's Christmas service, but they don't mention the actual denomination.

People are still arguing about that, but in my opinion it wouldn't have been anywhere near as funny if it hadn't been intentional, or intentionally 'left in.'

The thing is, there are a LOT of Mormons in Hollywood. I doubt very much if you could find a movie or TV show that does not have a Mormon somewhere in the cast or crew, probably several. It is, in other words, not likely that nobody understood the reference before the scene was shot, even if the original writers didn't think about it before they put it in. In other words, if the writers didn't understand the acronym before they originally used it (highly unlikely...it would be a little like Hollywood writers not recognizing a Hanukkah joke before they put it on paper), they most certainly did before it was finally used, and they didn't change it. They got the joke.

The fact that "LDS" is the acronym for 'Latter-day saint," a group rather famous for being extremely 'clean-living' (no booze, no tobacco...CERTAINLY no drugs...shoot, we don't even drink coffee or tea!) makes the joke even funnier when those initials are used in the place of "LSD."

yeah, the joke works without the recognition of the church reference, but only mildly. When you put in the Mormon reference, though, it works better for those who 'get' the reference. "Inside" jokes are common in movies and other shows. Call it an "Easter egg," if you will.

Ah, well....this is taking the topic a little off target. Back to your original scheduled programming....

 

[DanishCrow]

I think that this is an interesting idea...Star Trek isn't spiritual. This might relate to how science isn't seen as spiritual. This proceeds perhaps from how science is standoffish from the perspective of personal meaning...you may like or love science but science doesnt like you. Science isn't about your personal subjective reality only about its objective reality.

Now science fiction, or Roddenberrys particular vision of it, mixes every element of religious story into it's own narrative...intentionally. We have morality, expressions of vastly superior power, knowledge, even foresight, critical internal struggles, etc...

What I am suggesting here is that humanity, as a whole, is moving beyond the need for a literal supernatural power to pledge an allegiance to, in favor of a more creative array of fictional superpowers in which one can find ones self in. In both cases one is confronted with a reality greater than ones self, forced to consider what actions are right and worthwhile, and also given an opportunity to witness the strangeness and power and mystery of the Universe.

Scholarship regarding our ancient spiritual epics is showing more and more that these texts didn't arise out of a vacuum but from a rich tradition of storytelling. Stories were incorporated as is or altered to suit the needs of the audience.

In a similar fashion Star Trek exists in a world of TV series which rise and fall based on viewership (and advertising revenue).

I think that humanity is progressing beyond the need to think is has to force itself to believe in a certain fairy tale and toward an understanding that we can actively enjoy and take seriously (but not too seriously) immersion in a variety of imaginable realms. Such "trips" are not irresponsible escapes from reality, but vital and revitalizing food for our souls, our psychological health.

I heartily agree! Storytelling is one of the most, if not the most important tools for understanding our own being and that of others. Literature and movies all potentially move us like spirituality can, because they were created by people who had visions.

Prior to organized religion, hero tales (Arjunas sorrow, Beowulf, Odysseus etc.) were as important to spirituality as scripture. We're probably moving towards something like that again. Fortunately, taking spiritual nourishment from fiction doesn't preclude taking it from the gods, too

 

[blü 2]

I think that the Force gives the would be believer some metaphysical reality that they might hold out some hope for as being a real reality. This is a meme that is a wellspring of possibility for a human mind open for it to take hold and grow. There isn't an equivalent meme from Star Trek of a metaphysical kind.

I agree, except for Star Trek's telepathy bit.

Now if we take the idea of our very own existence as a metaphysical proposition, the existence of our soul or spirit, then the Force strengthens that imaginal fantasy with an objective metaphysical reality perhaps.

In parallel to that, Star Trek would quote Jean-Luc saying to eg the Borg, We humans will not be dominated! and by sheer industrial-grade determination and the usual ingenuity, overcoming.

That parallel between God and Man, perhaps?

In the Western tradition we have Excalibur, a sword that stood for balance and truth. This is, perhaps, the sword of Jesus United with a Celtic goddess.

Excalibur is also a hero's weapon, so you could argue it stands for dealing with your enemies by violence and threats of violence (Star Wars), rather than persuading, negotiating, finding common ground (Star Trek, at least much of the time).

In the east there is the idea of the sword as an expression of the spiritual character of its wielder. The gun is about fear and anger but it has some of the same associations.

Ah, yes, as in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, where the good guys with their code of samurai honor use their fine swordsmanship like Jedi Knights and it's the villains who have a gun. Old cowboy songs about a 'code of the west' are using the same tune. (Except that Kurosawa is really about politics, honest labor versus aggressive bandits, so if it's on any side, I'd say Star Trek.)

Perhaps the sword allows for more of a purely defensive response to aggression.

Classically, it's more personal, eye to eye, removing the gunshot distance between the antagonists, and on screen, allowing them to have a conversation in the pauses and clinches. I think both Star Wars and Star Trek use that one ─ remember Kirk's judo?

Witness the deflection of blaster shots...this heightens the sense of the confidence and mastery of the sword-saber wielder over the safety of the long range weapon user.

AND done with your blindfold on. Do you remember the Mythbusters episode about catching the arrow fired at you, Ninja-style? That was close to remarkable at times, but nothing like the speed of light. The Star Wars equivalent necessarily implies knowing the future with tremendous exactness. (Perhaps we should balance that against Troy's telepathy and call it a draw.)