Different Christian Denominations May Have Different Beliefs

[Penumbra]

Scriptures must be considered in the light of all Scripture, and not in isolation.

Scriptures must also be understood by the context of which they were written, and they were not written as a unified whole.

 

[smokydot]

Scriptures must also be understood by the context of which they were written, and they were not written as a unified whol,e.

You are wrong about that. . .66 books written over 1700 years by multiple writers, and all completely in agreement when understood in the light of the others.

If you want to see the unified whole, they have to be studied. . .and with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

 

[james2ko]

As Christians, we are to live "...by every word the proceeds from the mouth of God" (Mat 4:4). Has anyone considered what our source of inspiration and instruction has to say about the 33,820 different Christian denominations and sects in existence today?

 

[Katzpur]

As Christians, we are to live "...by every word the proceeds from the mouth of God" (Mat 4:4). Has anyone considered what our source of inspiration and instruction has to say about the 33,820 different Christian denominations and sects in existence today?

My guess is that He's not really happy about it.

 

[smokydot]

As Christians, we are to live "...by every word the proceeds from the mouth of God" (Mat 4:4). Has anyone considered what our source of inspiration and instruction has to say about the 33,820 different Christian denominations and sects in existence today?

We are to live ". . .on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." It is our food, like the manna in the desert.​

 

[james2ko]

My guess is that He's not really happy about it.

I agree. Jesus said, "....I will build my church [not churches] and the gates of hades [grave] shall not prevail against it." (Mat 16:18). Paul tells us there is, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5).

This tells me that out of the 33,820 sects and denominations, one of them has to be the church to which Christ was referring. The question is which one?

 

[Penumbra]

I agree. Jesus said, "....I will build my church [not churches] and the gates of hades [grave] shall not prevail against it." (Mat 16:18). Paul tells us there is, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5).

This tells me that out of the 33,820 sects and denominations, one of them has to be the church to which Christ was referring. The question is which one?

If that's the case, then your satan beat your god.

 

[james2ko]

We are to live ". . .on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." It is our food, like the manna in the desert.​

I looked through all my bible versions and could not find the word "on". Is that the smokydot version? Let me know when you complete it so I could bum a copy

The word "by" is also translated as "on" in other verses. It could most certainly apply here. Appreciate the insight...

 

[smokydot]

I looked through all my bible versions and could not find the word "on". Is that the smokydot version? Let me know when you complete it so I could bum a copy

The word "by" is also translated as "on" in other verses. It could most certainly apply here. Appreciate the insight...

I use the Nestle Greek text (NIV).

In the Textus Receptus (KJV), it is "by."

But in context, it's about food, rather than law.

 

[Katzpur]

I agree. Jesus said, "....I will build my church [not churches] and the gates of hades [grave] shall not prevail against it." (Mat 16:18). Paul tells us there is, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5).

This tells me that out of the 33,820 sects and denominations, one of them has to be the church to which Christ was referring. The question is which one?

If that's the case, then your satan beat your god.

I think you're both (James and Penumbra) misinterpreting Matthew 16:18. I don't believe Jesus was saying that one of the 33,820 denominations that would exist 2000 years after His death would be the one He personally established. Furthermore, I can guarantee you that the "gates of hades" or "gates of hell" has nothing whatsoever to do with Satan.

To the Apostles (to whom Jesus was speaking in Matthew 16) and indeed to any 1st century Jewish convert to Christianity, the "gates of hell" would have had no such sinister connotations. Hell (or Hades) was simply the place where the spirits of the dead went to reside until the resurrection of their respective bodies. The gates would have been the entrance to that realm. Jesus was saying that not even death would prevent a person from hearing His gospel. He personally visited there (in spirit form himself) during the three day period when His body lay in the tomb. He taught the gospel to those who had died prior to His ministry to had not had the opportunity to hear the good news of redemption. I believe the gospel continues to be taught there today, enabling the billions who have lived and died in ignorance to hear the Savior's message. God isn't going to condemn anyone without giving him a chance to hear, understand and accept the gospel. That would be incredibly unjust.

As to which, if any, of the 33,820 denominations is "the one" Jesus established, you can probably expect 33,820 different answers. Every Christian, you and I included, James, probably thinks he belongs to "the one" Jesus was referring to.

 

[Penumbra]

I think you're both (James and Penumbra) misinterpreting Matthew 16:18. I don't believe Jesus was saying that one of the 33,820 denominations that would exist 2000 years after His death would be the one He personally established. Furthermore, I can guarantee you that the "gates of hades" or "gates of hell" has nothing whatsoever to do with Satan.

To the Apostles (to whom Jesus was speaking in Matthew 16) and indeed to any 1st century Jewish convert to Christianity, the "gates of hell" would have had no such sinister connotations. Hell (or Hades) was simply the place where the spirits of the dead went to reside until the resurrection of their respective bodies. The gates would have been the entrance to that realm. Jesus was saying that not even death would prevent a person from hearing His gospel. He personally visited there (in spirit form himself) during the three day period when His body lay in the tomb. He taught the gospel to those who had died prior to His ministry to had not had the opportunity to hear the good news of redemption. I believe the gospel continues to be taught there today, enabling the billions who have lived and died in ignorance to hear the Savior's message. God isn't going to condemn anyone without giving him a chance to hear, understand and accept the gospel. That would be incredibly unjust.

As to which, if any, of the 33,820 denominations is "the one" Jesus established, you can probably expect 33,820 different answers. Every Christian, you and I included, James, probably thinks he belongs to "the one" Jesus was referring to.

My post wasn't a comment on what the Bible says. It was a comment on his interpretation of it, specifically the conclusion that occurs based on his viewpoint.

If he believes that out of 33,820 denominations, only one is of some true god, then that god failed pretty hard at what he was doing.

 

[Katzpur]

My post wasn't a comment on what the Bible says. It was a comment on his interpretation of it, specifically the conclusion that occurs based on his viewpoint.

I realize that. I probably shouldn't have attempted to respond to both his post and yours at the same time.

If he believes that out of 33,820 denominations, only one is of some true god, then that god failed pretty hard at what he was doing.

Still, I disagree with you. How is the fact that there are so many denominations God's fault? And why did you bring Satan into it? I assumed that you had somehow linked Satan to the Gates of Hell. Was I wrong about that?

 

[Penumbra]

I realize that. I probably shouldn't have attempted to respond to both his post and yours at the same time.

Still, I disagree with you. How is the fact that there are so many denominations God's fault? And why did you bring Satan into it? I assumed that you had somehow linked Satan to the Gates of Hell. Was I wrong about that?

No, I wasn't being that specific.

Simply that, given the Christian propositions:
a) God wants to spread his (accurate) word throughout the world, and bring people to him.
b) Satan wishes to oppose that.

And the result is that, according to his apparent view, that only one in several thousand denominations is the true church (and those several denominations are one of many religions),then God's purpose has been extremely unsuccessful.

The concept that there is some nigh-omnipotent being that is having trouble converting people and that he can only get a tiny fraction of humanity to figure out something he wishes everyone to know is simply mind-boggling to me.

 

[Katzpur]

The concept that there is some nigh-omnipotent being that is having trouble converting people and that he can only get a tiny fraction of humanity to figure out something he wishes everyone to know is simply mind-boggling to me.

Yes, I can see that.

 

[Renji]

Still, I disagree with you. How is the fact that there are so many denominations God's fault? And why did you bring Satan into it? I assumed that you had somehow linked Satan to the Gates of Hell. Was I wrong about that?

May I interrupt this hot discussion for a while?
I concur with that. Maybe, what she's trying to tell us that "God does not care because the Christianity is divided into many sects and it seems that God is not doing to 'unify' them." If that's not your point Ms. Penumbra, well, I am just making a conclusion from what was said. I'm just sayin'..

However, it is not God's fault. He promised to send the Holy Spirit so we will be guided. But it is man "who have created their own paths", and ofcourse, with the devil's power, he would try his very best to deceive mankind and keep the church divided as much as possible.

 

[Penumbra]

May I interrupt this hot discussion for a while?
I concur with that. Maybe, what she's trying to tell us that "God does not care because the Christianity is divided into many sects and it seems that God is not doing to 'unify' them." If that's not your point Ms. Penumbra, well, I am just making a conclusion from what was said. I'm just sayin'..

However, it is not God's fault. He promised to send the Holy Spirit so we will be guided. But it is man "who have created their own paths", and ofcourse, with the devil's power, he would try his very best to deceive mankind and keep the church divided as much as possible.

An omnipotent being, basically by definition, has a virtually infinite number of exceedingly successful methods for reaching out and communicating with any individual it chooses to do so.

The concepts that god could have trouble, or that it is somehow a challenge for him, or that things aren't working out exactly as he intended, or that some satan being could make any headway against it, implies that either this god either:
-is not omnipotent
-has a different set of objectives than his followers think he has
-does not exist (with this being ignored for the sake of discussion)

-Lyn

 

[Renji]

An omnipotent being, basically by definition, has a virtually infinite number of exceedingly successful methods for reaching out and communicating with any individual it chooses to do so.

The concepts that god could have trouble, or that it is somehow a challenge for him, or that things aren't working out exactly as he intended, or that some satan being could make any headway against it, implies that either this god either:
-is not omnipotent
-has a different set of objectives than his followers think he has
-does not exist (with this being ignored for the sake of discussion)

-Lyn

Ok Ms. Lyn, thanks for the info. But you can't simply remove Satan out of the picture. He will try to deceive as many as possible to keep them away from God. And yes, God do have different methods such as the scriptures, inspirations and your own prayer to counter that. But it's up to the person basically. How can you, even if your omnipotent being, help someone who don't want to be helped?

I don't really want to argue with anyone, I just want to see your clarifications

 

[james2ko]

I think you're both (James and Penumbra) misinterpreting Matthew 16:18. I don't believe Jesus was saying that one of the 33,820 denominations that would exist 2000 years after His death would be the one He personally established.

So can you please explain the meaning of Eph 4:5? Can you also explain what Jesus meant in John 17:21 when He, speaking of His church, stated: "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Furthermore, I can guarantee you that the "gates of hades" or "gates of hell" has nothing whatsoever to do with Satan.

I agree. The Greek word translated "Hades" simply means "the grave". It is equivalent to the OT word "Sheol". The "grave" is where we, traditionally, all go when we die. Jesus was simply using a figure of speech to illustrate his church will never see the grave. In others words, never die. So His true church or group of followers have to exist somewhere on this planet.

Jesus was saying that not even death would prevent a person from hearing His gospel.

Scholars beg to differ:

Matthew Henry's commentary of Mat 16:18:

"Christ here promises to preserve and secure his church, when it is built; The gates of hell shall not prevail against it; neither against this truth, nor against the church which is built upon it."​

Jamieson Faussett and Brown's commentary:

“of Hades,” or, the unseen world; meaning, the gates of Death: in other words, “It shall never perish.” Some explain it of “the assaults of the powers of darkness”; but though that expresses a glorious truth, probably the former is the sense here."​

He taught the gospel to those who had died prior to His ministry to had not had the opportunity to hear the good news of redemption. I believe the gospel continues to be taught there today, enabling the billions who have lived and died in ignorance to hear the Savior's message. God isn't going to condemn anyone without giving him a chance to hear, understand and accept the gospel. That would be incredibly unjust. He personally visited there (in spirit form himself) during the three day period when His body lay in the tomb.

You must be referring to 1 Pet 3:19. Some Christians maintain the tradition that Christ was preaching to departed human "spirits in prison" while He was in "hell." That idea is simply not scriptural. Verse 20 makes it plain that those to whom Christ preached (concerning their rebellious activities on earth) were demon spirits which were, and still are, in a type of spiritual prison and that He preached to them during the days of Noah. Allow me to explain. Notice how 2 Pet 2:4-5 parallels and expounds on the meaning of 1 Pet 3:19-20:

1Pet 3:19-20 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

2 Pet 2:4-5 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus]and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

The Greek word translated "hell" in vs 4 is "tartaroo" or "tartarus" and not "Hades" or "Gehenna". Notice what Vine's Expository Bible Dictionary has to say about this word:

"The verb tartaroo, translated "cast down to hell" in 2Pe_2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor hades nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgment"; the region is described as "pits of darkness."​

1 Pet 3:19-20 is not talking about the three days and nights Jesus was dead in the grave at all! He was in "hell" or "tartarus", during the days of Noah, preaching to the demon spirits confined there! This is the only time in the whole NT the term "hell" is referred to as "tartarus" and it's distinctly referring to the demon spirits not unrepentant human spirits!

How plain is the truth of God!

 

[smokydot]

So can you please explain the meaning of Eph 4:5? Can you also explain what Jesus meant in John 17:21 when He, speaking of His church, stated: "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."
I agree. The Greek word translated "Hades" simply means "the grave". It is equivalent to the OT word "Sheol". The "grave" is where we, traditionally, all go when we die. Jesus was simply using a figure of speech to illustrate his church will never see the grave. In others words, never die. So His true church or group of followers have to exist somewhere on this planet.
Scholars beg to differ:
Matthew Henry's commentary of Mat 16:18: "Christ here promises to preserve and secure his church, when it is built; The gates of hell shall not prevail against it; neither against this truth, nor against the church which is built upon it."
Jamieson Faussett and Brown's commentary:“of Hades,” or, the unseen world; meaning, the gates of Death: in other words, “It shall never perish.” Some explain it of “the assaults of the powers of darkness”; but though that expresses a glorious truth, probably the former is the sense here."
You must be referring to 1 Pet 3:19. Some Christians maintain the tradition that Christ was preaching to departed human "spirits in prison" while He was in "hell." That idea is simply not scriptural. Verse 20 makes it plain that those to whom Christ preached (concerning their rebellious activities on earth) were demon spirits which were, and still are, in a type of spiritual prison and that He preached to them during the days of Noah. Allow me to explain. Notice how 2 Pet 2:4-5 parallels and expounds on the meaning of 1 Pet 3:19-20:
1Pet 3:19-20 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
2 Pet 2:4-5 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus]and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
The Greek word translated "hell" in vs 4 is "tartaroo" or "tartarus" and not "Hades" or "Gehenna". Notice what Vine's Expository Bible Dictionary has to say about this word: "The verb tartaroo, translated "cast down to hell" in 2Pe_2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor hades nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgment"; the region is described as "pits of darkness."
1 Pet 3:19-20 is not talking about the three days and nights Jesus was dead in the grave at all! He was in "hell" or "tartarus", during the days of Noah, preaching to the demon spirits confined there! This is the only time in the whole NT the term "hell" is referred to as "tartarus" and it's distinctly referring to the demon spirits not unrepentant human spirits!

Tartarus was the term used by the Greeks to designate the place where the most wicked spirits were sent to be punished.

How plain is the truth of God!

 

[Penumbra]

How can you, even if your omnipotent being, help someone who don't want to be helped?

Provide them with all information you want them to have so that they can make an educated decision about things. That's how.