Different Christian Denominations May Have Different Beliefs

[Friend of Bill W]

And there are also Christians who don't believe Jesus existed; 'Son of Man' is a clue, it's meant to be allegorical for 'any man' - for us all to be Christlike. Jesus for these is just an archetypal figure and the death and resurrection is symbolic of the death and resurrection of the spirit; a sort of spiritual awakening I guess.

There is another school of thought where people believe Jesus was a Buddhist. But I think it's normally Buddhists who believe this! ;-)

 

[Katzpur]

So can you please explain the meaning of Eph 4:5?

I believe it is saying that there is only one Lord, only one true Church, and only one valid baptism. As early as the end of the first century, there were numerous different sects of Christianity. Today, as we both know, there are tens of thousands of competing denominations. That is definitely not what the Savior wanted when He established His Church, but it is what has happened.

Can you also explain what Jesus meant in John 17:21 when He, speaking of His church, stated: "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Sure. I think He was saying that He wanted His followers to have the same perfect unity of will and purpose that He and His Father have.

Jesus was simply using a figure of speech to illustrate his church will never see the grave. In others words, never die.

I agree that He was using a figure of speech. I disagree with how you are interpreting it.

Christ's Apostles, particularly Paul, repeatedly spoke of an Apostasy or "falling away" from the truth that was starting to take place even in his day. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

So His true church or group of followers have to exist somewhere on this planet.

I believe they are, but it was not because a universal apostasy never took place. It was because the Church Jesus Christ established has been re-established. Paul also prophesied of this.

Scholars beg to differ:

Matthew Henry's commentary of Mat 16:18:

"Christ here promises to preserve and secure his church, when it is built; The gates of hell shall not prevail against it; neither against this truth, nor against the church which is built upon it."
​

Jamieson Faussett and Brown's commentary:

“of Hades,” or, the unseen world; meaning, the gates of Death: in other words, “It shall never perish.” Some explain it of “the assaults of the powers of darkness”; but though that expresses a glorious truth, probably the former is the sense here."
​

What you're really saying is that your scholars beg to differ. No one wants to have to acknowledge that the Church fell into apostasy and that the authority held by Christ's Apostles was lost from the earth. Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened.

I'll get to the rest of your post later today, since I have to quit posting now. I'll just comment on your last statement, since it left me momentarily speechless:

How plain is the truth of God!

It appears to be so plain that 33,000+ different denominations cannot agree on what it is!

 

[lunamoth]

Every Christian, you and I included, James, probably thinks he belongs to "the one" Jesus was referring to.

I know I do!

Last time I checked a body is made up of many parts. So why not the Body of Christ, as well?

 

[Twilight Hue]

There is another school of thought where people believe Jesus was a Buddhist. But I think it's normally Buddhists who believe this! ;-)

More like an acknowledgment that there are people who believe this.

 

[Katzpur]

But is the body of Christ, the church, necessarily a denomination?

I think it all depends. I believe there is both an invisible Church (the body of all who believe in Christ) and a visible, institutional Church.

Isn't it simply all those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ?

But there are many Christians (me included) who believe that faith alone is not enough, that faith without works is dead and therefore essentially worthless. In other words, faith is absolutely essential, but our works of righteousness and our obedience to His commandments are necessary if we are to receive all of the blessings God has in store for us.

Couldn't the saved be in many of the denominations?

Undoubtedly.

 

[Katzpur]

I know I do!

Last time I checked a body is made up of many parts. So why not the Body of Christ, as well?

Makes sense to me.

 

[Renji]

Provide them with all information you want them to have so that they can make an educated decision about things. That's how.

Not at all. Even if you teach the greatest knowledge in this world, if one will not accept it, it would be useless....

 

[Penumbra]

Not at all. Even if you teach the greatest knowledge in this world, if one will not accept it, it would be useless....

Greatest knowledge according to whom?

I'd suspect that the greatest knowledge would stand head and shoulders above all other claims of truth, rather than buried in the brawl with them.

Suppose a person doesn't know which god, if any, exists. (Happens quite often, seeing as how there are so many claims.)

Where does the supposed one true god factor in there? Why not answer their question?

 

[Renji]

Greatest knowledge according to whom?

What I said is a hyperbole.It's symbolical. It does not need to come from any one.

I'd suspect that the greatest knowledge would stand head and shoulders above all other claims of truth, rather than buried in the brawl with them.

With the 'hardheadedness' of the majority, I don't think so.

Where does the supposed one true god factor in there? Why not answer their question?

You will know God by spirit and in truth. And faith as well. Even if I answer, that wouldn't change anything. This topic is a cycle and no one would ever win this argument even in the next thousand years.Whatever that I think may be right about God may not apply to others.

 

[james2ko]

I'll get to the rest of your post later today, since I have to quit posting now. I'll just comment on your last statement, since it left me momentarily speechless:

I'll eagerly await your full rebuttal before making mine

 

[smokydot]

I agree. Jesus said, "....I will build my church [not churches] and the gates of hades [grave] shall not prevail against it." (Mat 16:18). Paul tells us there is, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5).
This tells me that out of the 33,820 sects and denominations, one of them has to be the church to which Christ was referring. The question is which one?

But is the body of Christ, the church, necessarily a denomination?

Isn't it simply all those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ?

Couldn't the saved be in many of the denominations?

 

[james2ko]

But is the body of Christ, the church, necessarily a denomination?

It does not have to be, especially when in hiding during persecution. In today's relatively peaceful, tolerant religious landscape--most definitely. There is plenty of biblical evidence to support the fact that two of God's main character traits are order and structure (1 Cor 14:40). Since His character never changes (Mal 3:6), why would His true church today not reflect these characteristics?

Isn't it simply all those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ?

It depends on how you interpret being saved and having faith in Jesus Christ.

Couldn't the saved be in many of the denominations?

Not according to the scriptures I've presented throughout the thread.

 

[Astravalon]

Most people more than likely know this already, but there seems to be a few who don't realize that Christians have really very different sets of belief.
1. Not all Christians believe in the Trinity. Some don't believe that Jesus is God. Some believe that Jesus was an angel, others believe that Jesus was the son of God, other Christians believe that Jesus was just a normal human being chosen by God to give a message.
2. Not all Christians believe in free will. I have had many discussions with Christians about whether there is free will or not.

I am one of those who believes that they are all Christians, even if they disagree with some of my own beliefs about Jesus. There are other people who only believe that their own denomination are true Christians. Those above are some major disagreements, there are also a lot of minor ones, such as in baptism and such.

I agree. This didn't really sink in for me until I had spent some time in online theological discussions and debates. Before then, I would actually seek out The Official Christian Consensus on such topics as ghosts. Then I came to realize that this was something of an illusion, that there is likely as much diversity of belief within the general category of Christianity as there is outside of it. It's kinda cool, actually!


.

 

[Katzpur]

I'll eagerly await your full rebuttal before making mine

Sorry, James. I actually forgot, but I will get to it later today, I promise.

 

[smokydot]

It does not have to be, especially when in hiding during persecution. In today's relatively peaceful, tolerant religious landscape--most definitely. There is plenty of biblical evidence to support the fact that two of God's main character traits are order and structure (1 Cor 14:40). Since His character never changes (Mal 3:6), why would His true church today not reflect these characteristics?

Well, actually you have the visible church, those who profess to be Christians, but who not all really are.
Even in the time of Paul, members of the visible church were not all true Christians.
And then there is the true church, those who are indeed in Christ, born again, the Body of Christ. They are found in many different churches.

It depends on how you interpret being saved and having faith in Jesus Christ.

That's easy, it's what the NT says.

saved from the wrath of God on our sin,
by faith and trust in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to satisfy the debt we owe God's justice for our sin,
which faith is evidenced by obedience to Jesus' commands.

faith--to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the one and only savior from God's wrath on sin, the only way to the Father,
that "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Ac 4:12),
which faith is evidenced by obedience to Jesus' commands.

Not according to the scriptures I've presented throughout the thread.

The Church is the Body of Christ; that is, those who are in Christ by rebirth (Jn 3:3).
It is not a particular denomination. You will find the true Church in many of the denominations. . .which is not to say the whole denomination is the true Church.

 

[dance-above]

A house divided against itself will not stand. There is one God one Lord one Faith. The reason there is so much division is that there not in the body but in the world.

 

[james2ko]

Well, actually you have the visible church, those who profess to be Christians, but who not all really are.
Even in the time of Paul, members of the visible church were not all true Christians.

I agree. Although, the visible church could also be the "false" church of which Jesus prophesied, before Paul came into the picture (Mat 24:5; Mat 24:11; Mar 13:6). There may be a few scattered individuals with God's Spirit who exist outside an organizational structure. But there exists one organization whom Jesus is primarily involved.

And then there is the true church, those who are indeed in Christ, born again, the Body of Christ. They are found in many different churches.It is not a particular denomination. You will find the true Church in many of the denominations. . .which is not to say the whole denomination is the true Church

I disagree. The true church should be in total doctrinal agreement. (Eph 4:5; 1 Cor 12:13)

 

[Katzpur]

James, I said that I would comment on the remainder of this post. Sorry for the delay in doing so. I'm really not quite sure that I have all that much to add to what I have already said, though. It appears as if we disagree as to what Christ said when He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. I'm not particularly hopeful that either of us is going to change the other's mind, are you?

Scholars beg to differ:

Matthew Henry's commentary of Mat 16:18:

"Christ here promises to preserve and secure his church, when it is built; The gates of hell shall not prevail against it; neither against this truth, nor against the church which is built upon it."
​

Jamieson Faussett and Brown's commentary:

“of Hades,” or, the unseen world; meaning, the gates of Death: in other words, “It shall never perish.” Some explain it of “the assaults of the powers of darkness”; but though that expresses a glorious truth, probably the former is the sense here."​

​

You say that scholars disagree with my interpretation. You quote two who do. That's nice, but they are obviously not the only scholars who have spoken on the subject. Many other scholars point to the writings of the earliest Christians which plainly teach that the spirits of all men go to a spirit realm to await the resurrection and that this is a place where than can continue to learn important truths they didn't have the opportunity to hear during their lifetimes. I wouldn't even know where to start, there are so many such evidences. If you really want me to, though, I'll give it a shot.

My belief is that although the Church as an earthly organization would cease to exist (at least in its original form), the doctrines Christ taught would survive and be taught in the Spirit World, first by Him and then by His disciples. I believe this work continues today.

 

[ChristineES]

My thoughts on the matter is this: How do we know who has the right interpretation? Can anyone be so arrogant to believe that their interpretation is the only one that could be right? I am not going to judge anyone that their interpretation is wrong, because mine could be wrong, too.

 

[Katzpur]

But there exists one organization whom Jesus is primarily involved.

And this is obviously the one you're affiliated with. I'm okay with that. Why would anyone be a member of a church he didn't believe was true? So, which organization are you referring to?