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Different Opinions....Who is right?

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I do not know of any. Care to offer some specifics?
I actually did offer specifics -but -as is my case -they were not perceived as such -so I will attempt to offer more later.

Meanwhile....

First.... it should be understood that "life", by a certain definition, is dependent upon non-life.

The non-life upon which life is dependent is basically "dynamic interaction".

That which is non-life is considered by some to be "inanimate", but the definition of "animate" is -or at least should be -MOST BASICALLY and ESSENTIALLY -"that which is dynamically interactive".

"Life" -by one definition -is the complex arrangement of non-life. OR -all things are "alive" -ranging from simple to more complex.
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I actually did offer specifics -but -as is my case -they were not perceived as such -so I will attempt to offer more later.

Meanwhile....

First.... it should be understood that "life", by a certain definition, is dependent upon non-life.

The non-life upon which life is dependent is basically "dynamic interaction".

That which is non-life is considered by some to be "inanimate", but the definition of "animate" is -or at least should be -MOST BASICALLY and ESSENTIALLY -"that which is dynamically interactive".

"Life" -by one definition -is the complex arrangement of non-life. OR -all things are "alive" -ranging from simple to more complex.
Yeah, I am still not seeing anything specific that amounts to evidence.

I'll wait until you are ready.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I actually did offer specifics -but -as is my case -they were not perceived as such -so I will attempt to offer more later.

Meanwhile....

First.... it should be understood that "life", by a certain definition, is dependent upon non-life.

The non-life upon which life is dependent is basically "dynamic interaction".

That which is non-life is considered by some to be "inanimate", but the definition of "animate" is -or at least should be -MOST BASICALLY and ESSENTIALLY -"that which is dynamically interactive".

"Life" -by one definition -is the complex arrangement of non-life. OR -all things are "alive" -ranging from simple to more complex.
Do you think attempting to define or re-define terms the way you are makes the terms meaningless? There is a difference between a bird and a rock that is worth noting.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Off topic. ...and no... Not everyone uses the KJV, and many are aware that it's not a very accurate translation.
What does this have to do with you being inaccurate in your claims... or the topic in this thread?
How do you decide what is true and what needs' interpreting' in the bible?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
By all means, feel free to mention that abiogenesis is a branch of science.

That doesn't mean it's relevant to a discussion about evolution. I mean you wouldn't start talking about electrical theory in a discussion about newtonian physics, even though they're both sciences, right?

It just makes me smile to see evolutionists divorce themselves from any discussion about how life originated as if the more important question is how it changed once it got here....

How life got here changes the whole ball game.


Did you read what you quoted....?

"The momentous transition to multicellular life may not have been so hard after all"

"Evolution of Multicellular Life Might Have Been Easier Than We Thought"

LOL "might not have been"?....."might have been"? Scientific terms are they?

From your first cited link....."Single celled organisms appeared at least 3.5 billion years ago, and maybe as early as 4.28 billion years ago. But somewhere along the way there was a shift and multicellular organisms began to appear. Exactly when this happened is a topic of much debate. . . . .Multicellularity involves quite a shift: instead of each single cell out for itself, cells living together in one organism must divide tasks and share energy and resources. Exactly how organisms achieved this transition has been elusive, though it was generally assumed to involve some kind of rare and complex genetic event. But increasing evidence suggests that it might have been easier than we thought."


From your second link...."Billions of years ago, life crossed a threshold. Single cells started to band together, and a world of formless, unicellular life was on course to evolve into the riot of shapes and functions of multicellular life today, from ants to pear trees to people."
This is said with such conviction....yet it goes on to say...."The gulf between unicellular and multicellular life seems almost unbridgeable. A single cell's existence is simple and limited. Like hermits, microbes need only be concerned with feeding themselves; neither coordination nor cooperation with others is necessary. . . . .Evolutionary biologists still debate what drove simple aggregates of cells to become more and more complex, leading to the wondrous diversity of life today. But embarking on that road no longer seems so daunting. "We are beginning to get a sense of how it might have occurred," says Ben Kerr, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Washington in Seattle. "You take what seems to be a major step in evolution and make it a series of minor steps."

How do you do that? With the power of suggestion.....making what seems to be impossible......probable.

Why do you think evolution can't account for it? What limitation do you think there was? And what exactly is the difference in the mechanism?

The difference in the mechanism is the fact that no new "kinds" of creatures are ever produced by adaptation.
The Peppered Moth is often used to demonstrate how evolution works.....the moth transformed itself into a color more closely resembling the darkened bark of the trees that it called home, blackened by coal fires....but as soon as the pollution problem was rectified, the moths returned to their natural color. At no stage did the moth become a new creature. Adaptation is NOT macro-evolution. Darwin did not see new creatures, but simply different varieties of the same creatures that existed on the Mainland. No matter how much time elapsed, they would not morph into something else.

In speciation experiments, regardless of whether the newly adapted species could interbreed with the original or not, at no time did the subjects of the experiment become a new creature....just a new variety of the old one.

The "mechanism" does not, and never would, transform a four legged land dweller the size of a dog, into a whale about a third the size of a football field....let alone a microscopic single cell into a dinosaur the size of a three story building.....there is no proof that such a transition is even possible, let alone likely. I really don't think that people truly understand the power of suggestion......propagandists do and so does the advertising industry. Why do you think they get celebrities to promote products?

And would you care to support your claim that a scientist can make a fossil say whatever he wants?

You can take any scientist's evaluation of the fossil record and see how many assumptions are made about relationships between creatures based on nothing but speculation about minor similarities.

If proof is evidence then it can't be proof because you just said that evidence is not proof, and you just admitted that proof is evidence. So as evidence, proof can not be proof.

You need more than fancy slogans to make a point here.

LOL...spoken like a true evolutionist.....:D .....how does that go again....?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It just makes me smile to see evolutionists divorce themselves from any discussion about how life originated as if the more important question is how it changed once it got here....

How life got here changes the whole ball game.
I've discussed abiogenesis here often.
I didn't know you wanted it to be an issue in this thread.
In short.....
The building blocks of life (eg, amino acids for RNA, lipids for cell walls) are
naturally occuring. There are a vast number of opportunities for life to arise,
considering the age of the Earth, its size, & the number of environments.
For life to arise spontaneously....it looks quite plausible.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
When people first look at such things as the antikythera mechanism (or an automobile, etc.), they do not mistake them for naturally-occurring things because tool marks are not immediately apparent.

But design / manufacturing techniques clearly are.
An automobile is a bad example imo, because everybody knows what it is and instantly recognise a transportation device upon seeing the wheels - no matter what the rest even looks like. And as such it is instantly recognised as a human made thing. Wheels, in this case, are thus things that "bear hallmarks of design", just like I said.

Antikythera is the same. One instantly recognises the use of gears. Doesn't matter what it's for or even if it does anything. It could even just be an artwork or something. The presence of fashioned gears immediatly informs you about its origins.

Complex purpose and function are apparent


Is it? Looking at the antikythera, I'ld say that its purpose and function are FAR from "apparant".

-the necessity of mental capacity to produce is apparent -then they consider such things as manufacturing processes.

No. It's recognised as manufactured by recognition of the manufactered parts. Gears, wheels, tires, ...

If, then, the manufacturing process were found to be automated, it would be understood that such indicated greater mental capacity and ability -not less.

Is this an attempt to pretend as if biological reproduction is an automated manufacturing process?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
First....

When considering the origins of the universe, elements, production of myriad environments, emergence and diversity of life, etc., it is SEEMINGLY more a matter of argument on any side from lack of reference.

Not quite sure what you are getting at.
It seems to me rather to be a matter of evidence.

However, there is reference. The reference is all around us. That which now exists is that which did exist -and the basic languages of reality -math, logic, etc - are now known to us -which is why man was able to reverse-engineer the universe to a certain point.

You speak as if math and logic were found under a rock. They weren't. Neither was "discovered". Both were developed by humans, in an attempt to make sense of reality. Because spoken language is inadequate to precisely describe the workings of gravity, motion, etc.

And when we encounter something current math can't explain, geniouses like Newton simply invent new math like calculus to do it.

However, there has not been much actual interest in reverse-engineering beyond that point -because that point has usually been considered "the beginning" -and it is simply assumed that the beginning in question (or not being questioned) was completely "natural".

What are you talking about? Do you know how many physicists are working on the problem of the origins of the universe, to find a "theory of everything"? Just a few years ago, thousands of physicists from all over the world joined forces to build the biggest and most expensive scientific experiment ever, the LHC. What do you think it is that they are researching there?

"no much interest"? Where did you get that idea?
It's the holy grail of physic...

In our present state of that which exists, we see that in order to produce something not otherwise possible, our mental capacity and ability are necessary -and that which requires such to produce is indicative of such.

Sure, I'll go along with that. With a small disclaimer though... don't confuse "this is impossible" with "we don't know"...

Especially when it comes to the frontier of scientific discovery (like the origins of the universe), which is pretty much dominated by unknowns, it's probably not that wise to declare things "impossible" simply because you don't know how they might be possible...


When considering the universe and all therein, not only is there little interest in how it came to be in reference to the "simplicity" which would logically be expected "in the beginning" (even the singularity must have been anything but simple -a mechanism which transformed that which was into specifically that which is), but there seems to be purposeful refusal to consider THE USUAL SUSPECT.

What "usual suspect"?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Really!!!?

You are suggesting that individuals and individual consciousness has no role in the determination of change in species.

It is painfully obvious that individual decisions affect every aspect of individual lives and the effects of individuals on change in species are profound even over the lifetime of the individual and become far more important with each succeeding generation.

If nothing we do has any affect on the future then why are we even here? Do people just live out their lives waiting to see what it brings? Who makes their coffee in the morning?
I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you're talking about.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You speak as if math and logic were found under a rock. They weren't. Neither was "discovered". Both were developed by humans, in an attempt to make sense of reality. Because spoken language is inadequate to precisely describe the workings of gravity, motion, etc.

One can say that gravity decreases as the square of the distance without understanding anything about gravity.

Math is merely logic and it works for this reason and no other. Humans didn't impose math on reality and reality does does obey mathematical principles. Reality is logical so there probably really is a mathematical equation or equations that can describe any given aspect of it. But this still doesn't mean we understand gravity or anything else.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
One can say that gravity decreases as the square of the distance without understanding anything about gravity.

Math is merely logic and it works for this reason and no other. Humans didn't impose math on reality and reality does does obey mathematical principles. Reality is logical so when there probably really is a mathematical equation or equations that can describe any given aspect of it. But this still doesn't mean we understand gravity or anything else.

Sure.

Doesn't change the fact that humans invented math precisely for the purpose of describing the workings of reality.
I don't think it is surprising that it does exactly what it was developed for to do.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I don't understand how you can say X is ugly and Y is beautiful. These seem like subjective viewpoints.
You just did. I was playing off that to make a point. That you didn't address.

You want to credit God for the beautiful things like sunsets and pretty birds and whatnot but not with the ugly things like cancer, COVID-19, worms that eat through children's eyes, etc. How does that work? Or are you trying to say that the ugly things are actually beautiful?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Do you think attempting to define or re-define terms the way you are makes the terms meaningless? There is a difference between a bird and a rock that is worth noting.
Absolutely not. Definitions have always been somewhat elastic due to the fact that we either need new words or to expand the definition of present words as we learn.
What I said is absolutely correct.

A bird and a rock are different, but also similar.
A bird and a rock are made of exactly the same basic thing -atoms. Each atom is the same basic thing -differing only in proportion (etc.) of the same exact components as other atoms -leading to the characteristics of "different" atoms which cause them to interact with other atoms in different ways.
It may seem as though a rock is inanimate, but it is the fact that its atoms -and all others -are constantly in motion -ready to interact with others in specific ways when given the opportunity -which allows for the existence and development of life on this huge "rock".

As for definition, sometimes atoms are shown as still pictures, and one must imagine the motion of electrons, etc. -but they can also be shown more accurately as an ANIMATION -that is, a MOVING picture. Therefore, I was certainly not the one to first associate ANIMATE with BASIC MOTION as opposed to non-motion.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Thank you for trying.

We are unaccustomed to viewing reality from any perspective other than a religious or scientific one. In all things there are far too many unknowns to understand it so we invented science to explain it a piece at a time. This gives us an insight into the logic of which reality consists. All things in reality exist in time with cause always preceding effect. We know that events can't be predicted because they depend on events that have yet to happen; that a butterfly in China causes a hurricane is a simple fact but people choose to ignore it just as they ignore the fact that we can't determine the nature of anything at all through observation alone.

When we make decisions we are creating a new future. An ant trying to escape the kid with a magnifying glass by going north is fundamentally different than he would have been if he had gone south or NNNNNE. Consciousness each act on the basis of knowledge (belief in humans) and our internal wiring (the exact nature of our brains as determined by our parents' genes). This future created by consciousness is ongoing so long as the individual is awake and even in sleep some consciousness still exists. The "unfolding" of the future is the root of evolution. We can't see it because our perspective is poor and we focus on effect (fossils) instead of cause (consciousness). We don't even have a definition for "consciousness" because its nature is hidden behind our beliefs generated by a language that forces us to see beliefs preferentially to anything else yet it is the root of change in species.

If you could really go back in time like in science fiction the tiniest change would reverberate, amplify, and utterly change everything going forward. Your mere presence for even the shortest time would prevent or change the way in which a butterfly flapped its wings. In a trillion years nothing in the cosmos would be unaffected. Reality is a product of the reality that existed the moment before but it is still intimately tied to things that happened billions of years ago. It is wholly unpredictable even in the very shortest time period but it is still dependent and things that affect consciousness and life are carried forward by memory.

From this perspective can be seen another explanation for experiment and change in species. It appears that it's not survival of the fittest that creates change in species but rather population bottlenecks especially where these bottlenecks select for unusual behavior. If you select "tame" wolves you get dogs. "Tame" is very unusual in wolves. Nature toys with all of her creations.

I know this makes "evolution" so complex it can't be studied and yes I know it must be studied. But it's more important to know what we know and the belief in "evolution" appears to be destroying us right along with the other nonsense that arose at the end of the 19th century. There are no easy answers to anything at all. While each aspect of reality may reduce to a simple equation we will never have all of those equations and might never even get a glimpse of the big picture. This may go down hard but this is what every experiment says. There are ways forward and we don't need to stop but we NEED to stop BELIEVING in science and accepting half baked ideas as reality.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Absolutely not. Definitions have always been somewhat elastic due to the fact that we either need new words or to expand the definition of present words as we learn.
What I said is absolutely correct.

A bird and a rock are different, but also similar.
A bird and a rock are made of exactly the same basic thing -atoms. Each atom is the same basic thing -differing only in proportion (etc.) of the same exact components as other atoms -leading to the characteristics of "different" atoms which cause them to interact with other atoms in different ways.
It may seem as though a rock is inanimate, but it is the fact that its atoms -and all others -are constantly in motion -ready to interact with others in specific ways when given the opportunity -which allows for the existence and development of life on this huge "rock".

As for definition, sometimes atoms are shown as still pictures, and one must imagine the motion of electrons, etc. -but they can also be shown more accurately as an ANIMATION -that is, a MOVING picture. Therefore, I was certainly not the one to first associate ANIMATE with BASIC MOTION as opposed to non-motion.
I appreciate your responses. It has been interesting.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Not quite sure what you are getting at.
It seems to me rather to be a matter of evidence.



You speak as if math and logic were found under a rock. They weren't. Neither was "discovered". Both were developed by humans, in an attempt to make sense of reality. Because spoken language is inadequate to precisely describe the workings of gravity, motion, etc.

And when we encounter something current math can't explain, geniouses like Newton simply invent new math like calculus to do it.



What are you talking about? Do you know how many physicists are working on the problem of the origins of the universe, to find a "theory of everything"? Just a few years ago, thousands of physicists from all over the world joined forces to build the biggest and most expensive scientific experiment ever, the LHC. What do you think it is that they are researching there?

"no much interest"? Where did you get that idea?
It's the holy grail of physic...



Sure, I'll go along with that. With a small disclaimer though... don't confuse "this is impossible" with "we don't know"...

Especially when it comes to the frontier of scientific discovery (like the origins of the universe), which is pretty much dominated by unknowns, it's probably not that wise to declare things "impossible" simply because you don't know how they might be possible...




What "usual suspect"?
Math and logic were not developed by humans! They most certainly were found under, in, around, etc. our environment and ourselves. We merely assigned symbols and words, etc.

"It" is NOW the holy grail of PHYSICS -but certainly has not been until more recently -and I would imagine, anyway, that those scientists are looking for how particular things happened rather than whether those things indicate the necessity for creative activity, intent, etc. -which is fine for their purpose.They might be seeking a grail, but I'd imagine not a "holy" one.

Not looking for such can very much affect whether you find it or not. Though they would be getting "warmer" in regard to answering the question of the necessity of creativity, they aren't actually looking in the right place for it if they aren't looking for it at all. Evidence provided by scientific discovery can prove much more than what scientists are attempting to understand at the time -but only if they attempt to understand those other things -or those other things are -or become -extremely obvious.

(Looking at the antikythera, ITS purpose and function are FAR from "apparent". Agreed -but THAT IT LIKELY HAS SOME PURPOSE -OR THAT IT WAS PURPOSED is EXTREMELY apparent.)
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
It just makes me smile to see evolutionists divorce themselves from any discussion about how life originated as if the more important question is how it changed once it got here....

How life got here changes the whole ball game.



Did you read what you quoted....?

"The momentous transition to multicellular life may not have been so hard after all"

"Evolution of Multicellular Life Might Have Been Easier Than We Thought"

LOL "might not have been"?....."might have been"? Scientific terms are they?

From your first cited link....."Single celled organisms appeared at least 3.5 billion years ago, and maybe as early as 4.28 billion years ago. But somewhere along the way there was a shift and multicellular organisms began to appear. Exactly when this happened is a topic of much debate. . . . .Multicellularity involves quite a shift: instead of each single cell out for itself, cells living together in one organism must divide tasks and share energy and resources. Exactly how organisms achieved this transition has been elusive, though it was generally assumed to involve some kind of rare and complex genetic event. But increasing evidence suggests that it might have been easier than we thought."


From your second link...."Billions of years ago, life crossed a threshold. Single cells started to band together, and a world of formless, unicellular life was on course to evolve into the riot of shapes and functions of multicellular life today, from ants to pear trees to people."
This is said with such conviction....yet it goes on to say...."The gulf between unicellular and multicellular life seems almost unbridgeable. A single cell's existence is simple and limited. Like hermits, microbes need only be concerned with feeding themselves; neither coordination nor cooperation with others is necessary. . . . .Evolutionary biologists still debate what drove simple aggregates of cells to become more and more complex, leading to the wondrous diversity of life today. But embarking on that road no longer seems so daunting. "We are beginning to get a sense of how it might have occurred," says Ben Kerr, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Washington in Seattle. "You take what seems to be a major step in evolution and make it a series of minor steps."

How do you do that? With the power of suggestion.....making what seems to be impossible......probable.



The difference in the mechanism is the fact that no new "kinds" of creatures are ever produced by adaptation.
The Peppered Moth is often used to demonstrate how evolution works.....the moth transformed itself into a color more closely resembling the darkened bark of the trees that it called home, blackened by coal fires....but as soon as the pollution problem was rectified, the moths returned to their natural color. At no stage did the moth become a new creature. Adaptation is NOT macro-evolution. Darwin did not see new creatures, but simply different varieties of the same creatures that existed on the Mainland. No matter how much time elapsed, they would not morph into something else.

In speciation experiments, regardless of whether the newly adapted species could interbreed with the original or not, at no time did the subjects of the experiment become a new creature....just a new variety of the old one.

The "mechanism" does not, and never would, transform a four legged land dweller the size of a dog, into a whale about a third the size of a football field....let alone a microscopic single cell into a dinosaur the size of a three story building.....there is no proof that such a transition is even possible, let alone likely. I really don't think that people truly understand the power of suggestion......propagandists do and so does the advertising industry. Why do you think they get celebrities to promote products?



You can take any scientist's evaluation of the fossil record and see how many assumptions are made about relationships between creatures based on nothing but speculation about minor similarities.



LOL...spoken like a true evolutionist.....:D .....how does that go again....?
I always enjoy a good laugh and regularly find them in what you post. Perhaps you will get some new material one day instead of repeating the erroneous statements you consistently use. The theory of evolution is not a theory of the origin of life. Proof is not a standard of science. Your dismissal and denial of the evidence does not falsify theories.

You know this.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
While a lot has been said here already (some have written a lot and not said that much) the main point of threads like these is obvious. The point of this thread is to make positions based on evidence and reasoning on the same level as belief without any evidence or reason.
 
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