• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Different Opinions....Who is right?

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
The truth is that intelligent design lost. It is not science.

I find much of what you say to be convenient. Just not for anyone interested in the truth.

Excellent my rabbit friend. No matter what religion you believe in the world has taught us so much. The truth exists in the creation for those to open their minds an see. We need to appreciate this gift of life we have been given what ever creator or non-creator set evolution in motion. I often remember the philosopher Alan watts (ok he was from the 60's) when he said we are like god setting our (gods) eyes on the our world, and I appreciated that analogy. Whatever we have it is a gift to be appreciated. An to think it took a rabbit to remind me. Ok I had some very good scotch before I wrote this but I hope the meaning is taken well.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
There's no such thing as "species". "Species" is a word with no real world referent.

All life is individual and all individuals are different. When you talk about species you are looking up the wrong end of the gifthorse.

Well you are right there is no such thing as a species. It is just a descriptive word to help us category life to better understand it. Every life is and individual but I am not sure how that relates to a gifthorse. Think species as an approximation of a group of related individuals that can reproduce together and represent a comparison to others than cannot. Not perfect but helpful in scientific research.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Firstly, it is based on the fact science has no clue how fast it was.
Actually science is a study with a collective group of people included myself that recognize how well it approximates reality. The only one without a clue is you "dad". Yes you. Your imaginary world has no support because it is all within your head. One day I hope you will understand this and wake up to the world we all live in.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What you say is true. No one should argue against that.
But... Do you think science is responsible for saving more lives or taking more lives?
Keep in mind science also brought us cigarettes, alcohol, guns, bombs, planes, trains, automobiles, poisons, pollution, drugs, poison gases, chemical mixtures(such as weed killers), many cancer causing agents, etc, etc.

Alcohol predated science, We Never Know.

We don’t know who exactly who fermented the first barley, wheat, malt, grapes, etc, but in the Old Babylonian and Middle Babylonian versions of the Epic of Gilgamesh (2nd millennium BCE), there was an ale-wife, named Siduri. But older than this Epic, is the mid-3rd millennium BCE Hymn to Ninkasi, a Sumerian goddess of beer, which included some detail of how to brew beer (read Hymn to Ninkasi).

In 18th and 19th dynasties Egypt (New Kingdom period), a number of pharaohs’ tombs (Tutankhamen, 18th dynasty, late 13th century BCE, and 19th dynasty Seti I, Ramesses II, III & IV), each have one of their chambers in tomb, texts written and preserved on the walls, the Book of the Heavenly Cow. It is believed that the original story may have originally written in the Old Kingdom or Middle Kingdom periods but have been lost for some times.

Before the texts talk of the sky goddess transforming into cow, which the aging sun god mounted on back and they flew to the sky, there is section of text, which today called the Destruction of Mankind.

In Destruction of Mankind, it narrated how men stopped worshipping the sun god Ra, so Ra sent one of his Eye that transformed into the lioness goddess, Sekhmet, who began killing people, eating their flesh and drinking their blood, and would kill everyone, but Ra stopped her by having 12 goddesses to produce beer dyed red, like blood, and filled one of the valley with beer. Sekhmet assuming this beer was blood of her victims, drank until she became intoxicated, and forgot all about killing men, and Sekhmet transformed into shape of beautiful woman, named Hathor. You can read Seti’s Destruction of Mankind here.

Now both myths from Mesopotamia and Egypt, but these are indications they know how to make alcoholic beverages. But physical evidence showed that beer making predated these myths, existing as early as 8th millennium BCE, in Neolithic building complex of Göbekli Tepe.

Beer brewing is certainly older than science.

People of ancient Egypt and Greece also make and drink wine, but wine, like beer, predated these civilizations, and evidence can be found in various Neolithic places, including Southern Caucasus, like some sites in Georgia, dated between 6000 and 5800 BCE.

And wine made from rice, predated Chinese civilization, and possibly dated as early as 7000 BCE, discovered in a Neolithic site at Henan.

Both wine and beer making predated written history.

And as to cigarette, it may be modern invention, but smoking tobacco predated invention of cigars and cigarettes. I am not sure when it all started, but the ancient Mayan used some sorts of tubes, possibly made from reeds, to smoke tobacco.

You cannot blame science for these inventions in regarding to tobacco and alcohol, as these were made before science got involved.

And pollution started long before the Bronze Age, when people started burning or cutting down forests, to built their settlements or to clear lands for agricultural farming - the Neolithic revolution.

The inventions of gun and explosive are more recent, but again they were made before science got involved. Gunpowder was accidentally invented by Taoist Chinese, but again I don’t remember when exactly, if it was invented during the Tang Dynasty or Song Dynasty, I’m not sure exactly.

Seriously, WNK, you really need to learn some history before you shoot off your mouth.
 
Last edited:

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Based on what you are saying and science despite all the things it has participated in creating, you accepted airplanes, so you must have at least some confident in the scientists and their theories that have help making this possible.

But we throw out all the science that has to do with nature, because clearly that is bullocks. So how would you suggest that anyone could be able to prove these things? Do you have a method that you think might work? What type of stuff would a person look at, trying to figure this out, as they can't use pretty much the whole Earth for anything in this regard, so a time machine or what?

Good luck with "dad" and remember all logic does not apply to "dad"'s answers. But thanks for your posts.
 

dad

Undefeated
Actually science is a study with a collective group of people included myself that recognize how well it approximates reality. The only one without a clue is you "dad". Yes you. Your imaginary world has no support because it is all within your head. One day I hope you will understand this and wake up to the world we all live in.
Then strut your stuff. Prove it. I know that the reasons science thinks it was slow are faith based. Like it or not. No use pretending.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
If it were not for the ID movement, no one would know who Meyer is.
I really thought the video was a comedy sketch until it seems that they really took themselves seriously. Meyer has not really trained in the studies pertinent to evolution and uses his title to justify his outdated views. Just love the anti evolution references as jokes, That is a sure indication that they are desperate. It is hard to listen to such uneducated propaganda with what is know today. Deeje needs to find new and better sources or just accept evolution and appreciate it creative power.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
There's no such thing as "species". "Species" is a word with no real world referent.

All life is individual and all individuals are different. When you talk about species you are looking up the wrong end of the gifthorse.
Wow, you really are piece of work.

Your hypocrisy and double standard are noted.

You are ok with ancient people pre-2000 BCE or mythological pre-Tower of Babel, inventing your conspiracy theory of Ancient Language being created for Ancient Science.

But you won’t allow modern scientists to coin words to describe any natural or physical phenomena, for the different fields of science.

This double standard demonstrated only your silly view that only ancient people can do science and speak only a single ancient language that you cannot even bloody well read.

LOL

Why can’t “species” be used? Is it because not found in your idiotic Ancient Language and Ancient Science.

Languages are evolving from multiple sources in history. There was no single language, like how Genesis Tower of Babel described he word.

Science also evolved, knowledge accumulated over times.

Do you expect the world to remain static, and to continue to use outdated knowledge and methods for your woo Ancient Science?

One thing is certain, there is no such beings as the Nephilim. They are myths.

Get over yourself, we not living in the 3rd millennium BCE or older.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science begins with a human thinking, theorising and discussing what it researches.

Historically a planet O stone, fused. Atmospheric gases....from cold spatial zero filled in as a gas.....no space.

Space is outside, so space on the outside allows the gas mass heavens to become minus….removed.

You are a human first, natural and origin and own self motivation, and also peer group association to apply human chosen practices, which are enforced by groups.

And told and controlled by that group to make claims, we, the intelligent know it all.

And we are all just meant to say "okay", we who do not understand your claims are less intelligent by your say so....and it is your advice by which we live and exist?

The answer to that statement, no, God O the stone planet, as named by that group with its gas mass history is why WE...humans live.

So you are a human living. You know that we need a particular amount of water and oxygen use to be safe. We also need natural light.

Which does not include science, for radiating is NATURAL first. Why we say, we the intelligent natural self know that natural light and natural life were balanced.

Then a human poses a question....how come mutation exists. We live in exactly the same atmospheric balanced condition. So then want answers.

For no matter what language you speak, when you think and pose theories it is all just talking.

Now when you design and invent, it is beyond talking. It what a human being as a natural self achieves. Design....they build and then state......my invention.

Which is not natural, it is a manipulation of natural.

Science.

So when science then poses string theories from out of space, which is less than what we own, NATURAL....then he claims I am superior intelligence about what statements?

Oh, destruction he says, I am allowed to.....I get riches and live a lifestyle based on those themes.....what no one else can achieve. And a whole lot of egotism and cult agreement, group peer elitism is involved. Not claiming natural or want of natural or discussing natural....for when you look at a sea shell in the history of when it was formed, and its body/presence, you human scientist are not there.

Then he would argue....yes I am, I am the studier of it. But are you a sea shell?

The answer to everything he looks at. Not you human, not a human form, not a human body, not a human consciousness. What you lie about....as a known historical science Destroyer teaching about inhumanity.

When a history says Maths is a female. When they say and God being a planet did an act of evil and created humans....that is just a human thinking historically about living on a Planet and what changed God to harm his own life.

And he says MATHS and also the planet and Sun. His formulas and his theories say and state categorically, we got life attacked....the formula proves it he says.

And no formula ever owned the invention/creation of any human....seeing the living bio human, SELF, and one of is doing all the imposing.

Now he will try to state...but science proves it is real. No it does not....natural energy and mass proves it can be changed/manipulated by a living human....one self.

Now we live as 2 selves. And when you see just how evil historically the one self man/scientist was, then you see him. MATHS he says is given a female connotation...says the one self making the claims. Maths then caused by life to be harmed he says.

Now maths does not own sexual intercourse. Yet he will look in science at sperm and an ovary and talk about it. Where it came from historically he says about self.

Out of 2 human being parent bodies as humans not you.

Then he will quote....but I will tell you, as a baby to adult sperm and ovary owner, where my 2 parents came from. And they die.....as his answer. They never came from any other place.....but he did...the researcher.

They were always quoted in science to be instantly manifest in self form without any other term of reference or explanation. And that science ancient LAW was accepted.

For when you have documents that claim God is creating eternity for us...then it imposes that God is not eternal and nor is eternal existent until God changes to force it to exist....which is a contradiction to science of the occult claiming today that reading from the bible advises them how to obtain an infinite resource that he says is infinite, and also eternal.

Knowing the whole time that we already live in space...from its very beginnings, we only do not live in the DEPTH of space, but we live in the breadth of space.

Bread he says and TH.....which he said was TH O TH.....Numbers.

Now if a scientist living in a natural spatial body with gases says, I am allowed to change the state of the Heavens, what would occur actually and be seen historically?

Our life destruction, civilization destroyed again and again and again, for civilization involves technology and invention and applied human owned...and controlled ONLY by humans. Machines.

God never invented a machine. Natural history never owned a machine...and a built machine does not function by itself. It has to have a human designer manipulating, using and controlling.

The titled historic scientific review.....term of Satanism, and also the Destroyer.

The ability for a human in science to have us destroyed for pretending he created creation.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Firstly, it is based on the fact science has no clue how fast it was.
You can't really base a proof on something or someone else getting something wrong. It would be like saying, "Muslims got the idea of God wrong, therefore Christianity is correct."

Furthermore, scientists got it right in terms of present day, as we can see that the plates move very slowly, I doubt you would disagree with that, correct?
So now they come to you seeking knowledge and proof of how the plates in the alternative nature could move so fast, so what evidence do you show them?

Then we look at the known history of the world, and time since creation. There is only so much time to play with.
Just for clarification are we talking approximately 6000 years or approximately 4.6 billion years?

Then we look at the flood of Noah. After the ark landed, all those animals and people had to get around the world to the continents somehow. It is logical to assume that the plate move was after the flood sometime. I find it implausible that animals got to Australia and etc by swimming, hitching a ride on debris, or some ice bridge etc. So, the separation had to be rapid.
Ok so this is just assumptions, you are not presenting proofs, you are aware of that, right?

It is logical to assume that the plate move was after the flood sometime.
No it is absolutely not logical to assume this. So how do you demonstrate it, because I can promise you that no person in their right mind, scientist or not will find this logical without you showing how it is possible?

I find it implausible that animals got to Australia and etc by swimming, hitching a ride on debris, or some ice bridge etc. So, the separation had to be rapid.
Agree it is very implausible, however if the plates moved so fast, couldn't the animals simply have jumped on them and hitch a ride? If so, you have still not shown any evidence?

There were no babies or fossils or anything before God created the first kinds.
Obviously there couldn't be fossils before life :)

But you can't deny that a person born in 1950 is older than one born in 1970. So clearly all life is not created at the time.

How fast fossilization used to occur in that different nature we do not know. It could have been faster.
Can you demonstrate this?

I use scientific evidence. We know what creatures did leave remains! All creatures, therefore did not leave fossil remains, and in fact only a tiny percentage did!
But how do you know that God didn't make these fossils yesterday? You can't say that you know that creatures did leave remains in this alternative nature, when you completely disregard whatever science is telling us about fossils, because this is clearly only for present day. Which you yourself say doesn't work in this alternative nature, so how do you demonstrate that fossils were created differently in this nature?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
On faith.

Does having this faith inform reason, and add to wisdom and knowledge?

Do you come to know by faith?

I only ask because I have tried to have faith and I have never come to any special knowledge that lead me to believe anything real was going on!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I did the research some years ago, where I had research multiple sources on Genesis genealogy (Masoretic Text, the 2 Septuagint manuscripts - Alexandrinus and Vaticanus codices - Samaritan Torah, Vulgate, and the Syrian Peshiita, which I have recorded and calculated the generations of Genesis patriarchs in a MS Excel file.

But since I got a new PC (my old PC broke down), not everything I copied from my old hard drive to the portable hard drive, made to my new PC. So I am going to have find the Excel file from the original hard disk.

I will get back to you when I find them. I am too tired tonight to find them, so good night.
Thanks so much! I appreciate your response. I'll just wait for it.

Take care.
 

dad

Undefeated
You can't really base a proof on something or someone else getting something wrong. It would be like saying, "Muslims got the idea of God wrong, therefore Christianity is correct."
The fact they are wrong is a factor. Once we see they are wrong, nothing else matters. Scripture is based on God. For too long so called science has pretended to know better than God and claimed there was no creation.
I do not need anything as a basis but His word.



Furthermore, scientists got it right in terms of present day, as we can see that the plates move very slowly, I doubt you would disagree with that, correct?
So now they come to you seeking knowledge and proof of how the plates in the alternative nature could move so fast, so what evidence do you show them?
We would not show them things in the former nature, since they are stuck in this present nature and know nothing else. It doesn't matter how the different nature worked. It only matters that there was one. That elevates the issues way out of the depth of science.
They CANNOT be shown because they cannot come to a knowledge of the truth, God says. Ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Hamster science! The truth is beyond the little limits that they themselves imposed on science.
They need to repent and ask God, or they have no hope and no possibility of knowing.

Just for clarification are we talking approximately 6000 years or approximately 4.6 billion years?
Adam lived about 6000 years ago. He was created in the same week as the stars and sun and fish and birds etc.

Ok so this is just assumptions, you are not presenting proofs, you are aware of that, right?
Science doesn't know either way, no one is going to prove anything with science. You can call the facts of God's record anything you like. I usually call it belief. Belief that has innumerable proofs over all time and history.

No it is absolutely not logical to assume this. So how do you demonstrate it, because I can promise you that no person in their right mind, scientist or not will find this logical without you showing how it is possible?
They only ask how it would be possible in this present state/nature/physics. No one can show them how it was possible in this nature, because it was not in this nature! So all they can say if they are honest is 'I don't know'.


Agree it is very implausible, however if the plates moved so fast, couldn't the animals simply have jumped on them and hitch a ride? If so, you have still not shown any evidence?
The whole continent moved. No need to jump anywhere, the continents did the jumping.

Obviously there couldn't be fossils before life :)
Correct.

But you can't deny that a person born in 1950 is older than one born in 1970. So clearly all life is not created at the time.
All life in the beginning which included man, and birds and etc.

Can you demonstrate this?
Yes. The time-frame dictates that it had to be fast.

But how do you know that God didn't make these fossils yesterday?

He created animals and all life. He did not create dead stuff. He is the God of the living.
You can't say that you know that creatures did leave remains in this alternative nature, when you completely disregard whatever science is telling us about fossils, because this is clearly only for present day.
Science only uses the present nature and from there. They need great time for the fossil record to have formed in this nature. They cannot have it.


Which you yourself say doesn't work in this alternative nature, so how do you demonstrate that fossils were created differently in this nature?
Those with a science claim need to demonstrate. Once we know that science does not know what laws existed and what nature, then we can use the process of elimination. Everything they say must be eliminated! Then we look at what is left. Only beliefs. The question then is really, what do you believe happened? The answer is that it doesn't really matter what anyone believes. Once we see that science doesn't know, people can believe what they like.
I believe Jesus and His word, that He is the creator.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The fact they are wrong is a factor. Once we see they are wrong, nothing else matters. Scripture is based on God. For too long so called science has pretended to know better than God and claimed there was no creation.
I do not need anything as a basis but His word.



We would not show them things in the former nature, since they are stuck in this present nature and know nothing else. It doesn't matter how the different nature worked. It only matters that there was one. That elevates the issues way out of the depth of science.
They CANNOT be shown because they cannot come to a knowledge of the truth, God says. Ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Hamster science! The truth is beyond the little limits that they themselves imposed on science.
They need to repent and ask God, or they have no hope and no possibility of knowing.

Adam lived about 6000 years ago. He was created in the same week as the stars and sun and fish and birds etc.

Science doesn't know either way, no one is going to prove anything with science. You can call the facts of God's record anything you like. I usually call it belief. Belief that has innumerable proofs over all time and history.

They only ask how it would be possible in this present state/nature/physics. No one can show them how it was possible in this nature, because it was not in this nature! So all they can say if they are honest is 'I don't know'.


The whole continent moved. No need to jump anywhere, the continents did the jumping.

Correct.

All life in the beginning which included man, and birds and etc.

Yes. The time-frame dictates that it had to be fast.



He created animals and all life. He did not create dead stuff. He is the God of the living.
Science only uses the present nature and from there. They need great time for the fossil record to have formed in this nature. They cannot have it.


Those with a science claim need to demonstrate. Once we know that science does not know what laws existed and what nature, then we can use the process of elimination. Everything they say must be eliminated! Then we look at what is left. Only beliefs. The question then is really, what do you believe happened? The answer is that it doesn't really matter what anyone believes. Once we see that science doesn't know, people can believe what they like.
I believe Jesus and His word, that He is the creator.

If Jesus said my Father sacrificed my life to save my family. And your family is humans….were you saved or was the intention motivated by science and a personal spiritual want.

Based on historic teachings where large groups of males believed that their ancient first brother, brotherhood was Satan....rather than Satanists.

Yet if you used common human logic spiritual psyches pursue information in science about God, healthy humans.

If I said, I am innocent. I lived before in Genetics as a male self, and scientists attacked, mutated and killed our DNA baby genetics, as original science mentality...adult male.

I would own a status that said my Father did it.

Therefore you would ask Satan a question by theme...human male, okay Satan, for what reason did you want to copy God being attacked by the Sun?

I wanted to save my family would be his answer, rationally and correctly, reason why and motivation of want in first history, human, and where did you come from.

When humans say, spirit. And when I die I still have a spirit.

Now you know that clouds came out of a volcano by Earth God history...so you know we never came out of a volcano as a human or bio form.

However information for machine materials, molten metals as part of the design to build and own a machine did. So you would say God science was for machines, not for humans.

If you owned common sense...and seemingly lots of humans do not own common sense anymore.

So you would also say, okay so you wanted to own a theme/theory and reaction to shift time so you could go back to spirit?

Yes is that AI answer.

So you had to use a higher destructive power to try to achieve it.....for if spirit sent you there, creation, out of there body that higher power, eternal was certainly not going to allow you to go back to spirit was it?

As human reasoning about I want and time shifting...for self is included in those machine theories.....for they cannot claim to shift time without a machine being built.

They cannot shift time inside of a machine reaction for they would be lying, for no machine represents any Universe.

So use common sense for once.

Jesus as the STATE saved the life of sacrifice, the ability for humans to survive being irradiated, get life saved, but remain sick and dying unnaturally afterwards.

As the reasoning, who Jesus saved...for everyone else was just living in the natural atmospheric body that belongs to God O the planet Earth natural history......again, just common sense.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Nature does not intentionally create sick, weak, and lame. These are events rather than conditions. Like everything in life they occur suddenly. Yiou just ignore facts and every observation that fails to fit your beliefs.


Humans no longer are "evolving". At least not in any natural way. We are becoming slower, dim witted, and less able to think.


Individuals are a basket of abilities and potentialities. Where some would succeed others will fail.

All species are a basket of abilities and potentialities. Where some would succeed others will fail. In almost any situation some will flourish and some won't.

We call that natural selection.
Alcohol predated science, We Never Know.

We don’t know who exactly who fermented the first barley, wheat, malt, grapes, etc, but in the Old Babylonian and Middle Babylonian versions of the Epic of Gilgamesh (2nd millennium BCE), there was an ale-wife, named Siduri. But older than this Epic, is the mid-3rd millennium BCE Hymn to Ninkasi, a Sumerian goddess of beer, which included some detail of how to brew beer (read Hymn to Ninkasi).

In 18th and 19th dynasties Egypt (New Kingdom period), a number of pharaohs’ tombs (Tutankhamen, 18th dynasty, late 13th century BCE, and 19th dynasty Seti I, Ramesses II, III & IV), each have one of their chambers in tomb, texts written and preserved on the walls, the Book of the Heavenly Cow. It is believed that the original story may have originally written in the Old Kingdom or Middle Kingdom periods but have been lost for some times.

Before the texts talk of the sky goddess transforming into cow, which the aging sun god mounted on back and they flew to the sky, there is section of text, which today called the Destruction of Mankind.

In Destruction of Mankind, it narrated how men stopped worshipping the sun god Ra, so Ra sent one of his Eye that transformed into the lioness goddess, Sekhmet, who began killing people, eating their flesh and drinking their blood, and would kill everyone, but Ra stopped her by having 12 goddesses to produce beer dyed red, like blood, and filled one of the valley with beer. Sekhmet assuming this beer was blood of her victims, drank until she became intoxicated, and forgot all about killing men, and Sekhmet transformed into shape of beautiful woman, named Hathor. You can read Seti’s Destruction of Mankind here.

Now both myths from Mesopotamia and Egypt, but these are indications they know how to make alcoholic beverages. But physical evidence showed that beer making predated these myths, existing as early as 8th millennium BCE, in Neolithic building complex of Göbekli Tepe.

Beer brewing is certainly older than science.

People of ancient Egypt and Greece also make and drink wine, but wine, like beer, predated these civilizations, and evidence can be found in various Neolithic places, including Southern Caucasus, like some sites in Georgia, dated between 6000 and 5800 BCE.

And wine made from rice, predated Chinese civilization, and possibly dated as early as 7000 BCE, discovered in a Neolithic site at Henan.

Both wine and beer making predated written history.

And as to cigarette, it may be modern invention, but smoking tobacco predated invention of cigars and cigarettes. I am not sure when it all started, but the ancient Mayan used some sorts of tubes, possibly made from reeds, to smoke tobacco.

You cannot blame science for these inventions in regarding to tobacco and alcohol, as these were made before science got involved.

And pollution started long before the Bronze Age, when people started burning or cutting down forests, to built their settlements or to clear lands for agricultural farming - the Neolithic revolution.

The inventions of gun and explosive are more recent, but again they were made before science got involved. Gunpowder was accidentally invented by Taoist Chinese, but again I don’t remember when exactly, if it was invented during the Tang Dynasty or Song Dynasty, I’m not sure exactly.

Seriously, WNK, you really need to learn some history before you shoot off your mouth.

Brewing took a primitive form of science same as gardening/growing good tobacco. If you don't like what I post, go run your mouth elsewhere.
 
Top