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Different Opinions....Who is right?

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Funny, I have been asking for "evidence" of a slow and gradual change in lifeforms for years and never once have I seen anything that wasn't prefixed with a "might have" or "could have".....so how can something be true if it has to be preceded by a "maybe"? :shrug:
This is not true. I have seen evidence provided on this thread. I have seen it provided on this forum. You have too. I have posted evidence, but you choose to run from what I post and will not even see this. You are just in your regular and constant state of denial.

Let's start with single celled organisms (ignoring abiogenesis because they can't talk about that) and lets see what evidence is produced to support any 'morphology' or gradual transformation into all the life forms that have ever existed on this earth......no diagrams or suggestions and assertions.....lets see what real substantiated evidence they have? And why they are so reluctant to produce it. Could it be that it doesn't exist except in vivid imaginations?....and computer generated imagery?
How much more evidence has to be posted? You deny it all. You deny evidence you haven't reviewed or refuse to review. Clearly no amount of evidence will get you to review it and think. You are locked into your position that has absolutely no corroborating evidence.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Nobody can translate Ancient Language because its formatting is different. It's impossible to translate and never will be translated.
The ancient hieroglyphs and demotic were deciphered from stone stelae, dating to the Ptolemaic dynasty of the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE (Hellenistic period).

Lot of writings were done in official capacities (from royalty decrees, government), as well as in priesthood and in philosophy and academic writings for the Library of Alexandria.

Among that survived, the one that you would know as the Rosetta Stone, dated to reign of Ptolemy V in the early 2nd century BCE, discovered in the 18th century BCE. It is stele contained writing in hieroglyphs and demotic and translated in Koine Greek.

A large portion from the top has broken away, the part that are filled with hieroglyphs, are missing. We know what in say in Greek, but without the complete stele, only the surviving portion of the stele can be used for translation into modern English and French.

It was the priesthood that helped Ptolemy V’s administrators with writing the Rosetta Stone, which not only biographical history of Ptolemy’s reign and his decrees, but during the celebrations of Ptolemy’s birthday, the priesthood would include invoking Egyptian gods. The Ptolemaic rulers have been very generous with their Egyptian subjects especially to the priesthood, rebuilding old temples as well as building new temples. So the priesthood were quite willing to assist Ptolemaic government with writing and translating Greek into Egyptian or vice versa.

But the Rosetta Stone wasn’t the only stele used to help translators to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs. It was also not the oldest stele. Other Ptolemaic stelae containing decrees from earlier Ptolemaic kings were discovered since then.

The Decrees of Canopus was written during Ptolemy III’s reign, and the Raphia Decrees were written during reign of Ptolemy IV.

The things, these stelae were copied, so you would have multiple copies of each stelae, in various states that survive, and some of the missing pieces can be compared against those that survive.

That was how they translate some of Egyptian hieroglyphs from earlier periods of Egyptian history.

I am quite sure that the translations from Egyptian hieroglyphs to Greek Koine and Koine to English or French, aren’t perfect, because some meanings get lost in translation, but these Ptolemaic decrees provide translators the starting points needed to decipher these hieroglyphs. It may not be perfect, but there are no such things as perfect translation.

I am assuming you would know about these stelae, but as usual, you like to ignore evidence, only choosing to accept those that support your conspiracy theories.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The answer to this question for me, is what is from God is from God and what is not from God is from our own selves.

So who is right? I see the only sources of Truth are from God and any differing opinions as to the Truth those sources offer, stem from our own self and not from what God has given us.

Regards Tony
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That was how they translate some of Egyptian hieroglyphs from earlier periods of Egyptian history.

So in your opinion the language of 2750 BC was the same as the language of 200 BC!!!

What does the pyramids, gods or the Pyramid Texts have to do with Darwin or Natural Selection or fossils?

The Pyramid Texts when taken literally implies how change in species really occurred according to their science. It is probably far more correct than Darwin and is borne out by experiment and observation. ...and the Bible. ...and my experiential knowledge.

I have seen evidence provided on this thread.

I haven't see this. I've never seen good evidence that any change in any significant species was "slow". Indeed, all this so called evidence people keep presenting for "evolution" shows rapid changes.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Indeed, all this so called evidence people keep presenting for "evolution" shows rapid changes.

A great "experiment" would be to try to make some very small change in a very short lived species over many many generations. I think it would be very instructive since any such experiment would be out of control and result in a long series of sudden changes. Engineering a new species would prove almost impossible. With experience someone might be able to pull off changes that somewhat more gradual however. It's not that "all" change is sudden but that most change is sudden because it's NOT DRIVEN by "survival of the fittest" (see sigline).

In a very real way real change is driven by "God" because it results from the effect of "nonrandom" events that select for behavior, and not for "fitness" (see sigline) .
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
It is fortunate that science does not follow the blind musings of those that rely on belief or their own speculation viewed as fact to guide them.

Here is a link to experimental evidence that explicitly supports natural selection.

https://rdhbarrett.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/10.112640science.aav3824.pdf

It is always amusing to see people that have no knowledge of the work being done in science, while they argue views based purely on what they want to be true and not on evidence.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So in your opinion the language of 2750 BC was the same as the language of 200 BC!!!
What (hieroglyphs) exist in Old Kingdom, exist in the Middle Kingdom, then in the New Kingdom, in he Late Period, and eventually in Ptolemaic dynasty and Roman Egypt.

Over these periods some new words may be added, some forgotten, but the hieroglyphs were pretty uniform, especially when it concerned with the Egyptian gods and goddesses.

There were some modifications in the myths, and I don't doubt that, but that showing some evolutionary in the storytelling.

As I mentioned before the Pyramid Texts say that Tefnut and Shu were born from semen, as Re masturbated. In the Coffin Texts, they were spat into existence. And I don't remember which myth Re swallowed his own semen, and spat them into existence. And in another, while she was born from his saliva, her brother was born when Re sneezed.

These variations of myths, varied over time, written by different people (obviously), but it is quite common, and occurred in Greek myths and Sumerian-Babylonian myths. People tell some variations of the birth myths, so what happened in Egypt, is really not that all unique; different versions will occur over different times, sometimes different versions occurred in the same generation.

You should know this, if you are such expert in Egyptian history, Egyptian literature and Egyptian religion.

Or are you really that you that blind that you can't see the connections?

I think you are, since you cannot see reasons.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Pyramid Texts when taken literally implies how change in species really occurred according to their science. It is probably far more correct than Darwin and is borne out by experiment and observation. ...and the Bible. ...and my experiential knowledge.

:facepalm: Good grief.

That are so much inconsistencies and errors in the Bible.

In Exodus, it stated that before Moses was born, the Israelites built Rameses (Exodus 1), and 80 years later, Moses led them out of Egypt from that city (Exodus 12). 40 years after they gained their freedom, they captured Jericho, and the city was left abandoned (Joshua ).

But according to archaeology, Jericho was abandoned around 1565 BCE (17th dynasty), AND Rameses - or more precisely Pi-Ramesses (meaning the House of Ramesses) wasn't built until the reign of Ramesses II (reign 1279 - 1213 BCE), the 3rd king of the 19th dynasty.

Archaeology provide physical evidence, which can be dated and verified, so if I was going to consider which is true - archaeology or the Exodus/Joshua - then I would go with one that's more objective.

And it is the only times that the Bible is wrong. They are wrong in Genesis 10, in regarding to Egypt existing after the Flood. The 3rd and 4th dynasties' pyramids all predated the non-existence Flood (supposed dated to about 2350 BCE).

And do trust the dating of Genesis, especially when the Greek Septuagint give an even EARLIER date than the Hebrew Masoretic Text. And let's not forget the Samaritan Torah, which provide different dates in the generations. That being the case, the Septuagint, Masoretic and Samaritan each give different dates between Creation of Adam and Flood, and between Flood and birth of Abraham.

And you cannot rely on the Dead Sea Scrolls on Genesis, to verify which sources agree with DSS version, since only 2 verses survive in Genesis 5 and Genesis is completely missing in the scroll.

So, essentially Genesis is unreliable.

I don't see how you can even say what you said about the Bible, when you don't even understand different sources disagree with each other. Your knowledge of the Bible is just as pathetic as your knowledge of Egyptian history and Egyptian literature.

I don't even know why I bother to reply to you, when you won't listen to reasons.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I'm coming to understand and appreciate this. Only experiential knowledge truly trumps beliefs.

And it always trumps belief.

Observing how Nature evolves and interacts, can teach us all there is to know of God. But I also see that God has also sent a never ending line of teachers to impart that knowledge and enable us to become fruitful because of that knowledge.

Some ancient cultures did not need a Messenger, as they were in tune to Nature and their part to play in the time they lived, other people did not have that connection were given Messengers, that showed them how creation as a whole is connected.

Still we choose our thoughts over what is offered and the world we are in today is a direct result of being very disconnected from what is from God.

I wish you well and happy as you contemplate the connections of this given life, with Nature, and the never ending universes of existence.

Regards Tony
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Funny, I have been asking for "evidence" of a slow and gradual change in lifeforms for years and never once have I seen anything that wasn't prefixed with a "might have" or "could have".....so how can something be true if it has to be preceded by a "maybe"? :shrug:

Let's start with single celled organisms (ignoring abiogenesis because they can't talk about that) and lets see what evidence is produced to support any 'morphology' or gradual transformation into all the life forms that have ever existed on this earth......no diagrams or suggestions and assertions.....lets see what real substantiated evidence they have? And why they are so reluctant to produce it. Could it be that it doesn't exist except in vivid imaginations?....and computer generated imagery?
What do you mean that abiogenesis cannot be talked about? Who are they? How long have you been on this forum? It gets discussed regularly. What is not correct is how you creationists lump abiogenesis together with evolution as if they were the same thing. You have been informed well about this too. So if you are trying to say something, you are making it up while knowing better. I really find it interesting how easy it is for you to cling to false ideas that you know better about. Interesting and sad.

Abiogenesis is the origin of life. It is unknown, but represented by a number of untested hypotheses and a growing body of evidence. Evolution about the changes in populations of living things over time, their relationships and diversity. It is explained by the theory of evolution.

Was that so difficult to understand?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
This is not true. I have seen evidence provided on this thread. I have seen it provided on this forum. You have too. I have posted evidence, but you choose to run from what I post and will not even see this. You are just in your regular and constant state of denial.

Yet you can't state in a few words what that evidence consists of!

ALL observed change in life is sudden. This is a fact.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Or are you really that you that blind that you can't see the connections?

There IS A CONNECTION between the language and ideas over Egyptian history and I've said so myself MANY TIMES but you can't see that (you're already thinking about how to respond to this post) and you're going to miss the point not yet made: All change is necessarily in only one direction. The CT were influenced by the PT and the BotD was influenced by the CT. BUT it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Pyramid Texts was influenced in any way by the Book of the Dead.

This is a single simple concept but it's a virtual certainty you'll miss it again.

The Rosetta Stone has no bearing on the pyramid builders.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Rosetta Stone has no bearing on the pyramid builders.
I never said it did.

I was only talking about the hieroglyphs didn’t change that much, it has been pretty consistent.

Although there may be some variation in hieroglyphs for names, the names of the gods are recognizable in the Old Kingdom period to the Ptolemaic dynasty.

Only someone blinded by his own conspiracy theory will refuse to see the names of Ptah, Ra, Tefnut, Shu, Geb, Nut, Isis, Osiris, Horus, Seth, Anubis, Hathor, Thoth, Sekhmet, Khnum, etc, remained largely unchanged despite being over 2000 years apart, as well as being consistent to the Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Only someone blinded by his own conspiracy theory will refuse to see...

I suppose you believe that everyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking is conspiring to undermine truth, justice, and the American way. You obviously have some misguided idea that there is a conspiracy against all that is proper and true and that you represent reality while the rest of us are trying to undermine you personally.

There are no conspiracies and you won't be taken seriously by most people until you shake the belief.

I was only talking about the hieroglyphs didn’t change that much, it has been pretty consistent.

You CAN NOT show this because NO TEXT from the great pyramid building age exists. The CLOSEST thing that does exist is the Pyramid Texts and Egyptologists themselves and to a man say this is a book of incantation, religion, and magic. You are simply ASSUMING that if prose existed from that era that it would look like the language on the Rosetta Stone. AND YOU ARE IGNORING the fact that I am sayiong the Pyramid Texts is prose and specifically it is the rituals read to the crowds at the kings' ascension ceremonies. You ignore everything I say and I'll not respond to your irrelevant retort that is certain to follow unless it addresses ANY PART of what I'm talking about.

This is NOT the proper threasd for this discussion anyway since it is only tangentially related.

388a. It is N. who inundated the land after it had come out of the ocean; it is N. who pulled up the papyrus;

They could see the land had once been in the ocean because it was full of marine fossils.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Observing how Nature evolves and interacts, can teach us all there is to know of God. But I also see that God has also sent a never ending line of teachers to impart that knowledge and enable us to become fruitful because of that knowledge.

Some ancient cultures did not need a Messenger, as they were in tune to Nature and their part to play in the time they lived, other people did not have that connection were given Messengers, that showed them how creation as a whole is connected.

Still we choose our thoughts over what is offered and the world we are in today is a direct result of being very disconnected from what is from God.

I wish you well and happy as you contemplate the connections of this given life, with Nature, and the never ending universes of existence.

You didn't say it directly but it does appear very much that God is reality and nature. By living in harmony with nature this becomes more easily seen.

We have a lot of difficulty accepting what is natural when it's not peaches and creme or when things are chaotic. These are unavoidable parts of nature but maintaining perspective (God) can make it easier to get through the bad times and the evil that man always bring along.

It astounds me that so many people consider science omnipotent and omniscient. It astounds me how few people (even scientists) understand science and metaphysics. It surprises me that people think that "evolution" can be understood when we don't even have a definition for "consciousness". Life is consciousness and until we invent machine intelligence consciousness is life.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You didn't say it directly but it does appear very much that God is reality and nature. By living in harmony with nature this becomes more easily seen.

We have a lot of difficulty accepting what is natural when it's not peaches and creme or when things are chaotic. These are unavoidable parts of nature but maintaining perspective (God) can make it easier to get through the bad times and the evil that man always bring along.

It astounds me that so many people consider science omnipotent and omniscient. It astounds me how few people (even scientists) understand science and metaphysics. It surprises me that people think that "evolution" can be understood when we don't even have a definition for "consciousness". Life is consciousness and until we invent machine intelligence consciousness is life.

I see that this Reality we live in, the vast expanses of the many universes and all the planets to which have thier own specific Nature, is all created of God, a result of the 'Word' that issued forth from God. The Baha'i writings have given a very in depth concept of how creation came into being, which to me also shows me, if we do not look at the whole, we will see things in different frames of reference and as such will have differing opinions.

Personally I see all we can know about God is that Word and that Word was sent in this world by selected people who become known as Prophets and Messengers. Thus without them, we have no creation, no nature at all.

This is the first two opening paragraphs from a yet to be authorized translation of a Tablet,about how the universe came into existance;

"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification.

Thus the suns of the praise of the one true God moved resplendent in a vast, infinite space, capable neither of being defined by limits nor contained within the compass of signs and allusions. All praise be to Him Who was its Author and Creator, Who spread it out, and adorned it with countless lamps and never-fading luminaries: 'None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him' (Qur'an, 74:31). He made the circuits of these luminous divine orbs to be their lofty and celestial spheres; and He made the bodies of these spiritual spheres to be subtle and soft, flowing and liquid, undulating and vibrating, in such manner that these refulgent orbs swim in the circumferences of the spheres, and move in their vast space by the aid of their Creator and Maker, their Ordainer and Fashioner....." "....These are spiritual truths relating to the spiritual world. In like manner, from these spiritual realities infer truths about the material world. For physical things are signs and imprints of spiritual things; every lower thing is an image and counterpart of a higher thing....."

The remainder is here - Tablet of the Universe

All the best, thanks for the chat - Regards Tony
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I suppose you believe that everyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking is conspiring to undermine truth, justice, and the American way.
Actually that can apply to you.

And I’m not an American.

But then question is what do you have against Americans? Or against truth? Justice?

You are the one who claimed that no archaeologists and no Egyptologists agree with your claims.

Does people (eg Egyptologists) who disagree with you, are in some conspiracies? Or are you just wrong?

You are the one who believe in the Tower of Babel, which never exist. You are the one who who believe that Babel occurred around 4000 years ago or 2000 BCE. You are the one who believe that before Babel, only one ancient language was spoken. You are the who actually believe in the existence of Nephilim and the people who exist post-Babel were “Homo Omniscienis”. And you are the one who believe that Nephilim were superior scientists, more superior than modern science.

Can you verify any of that? Or is all that simply a conspiracy of your own making?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually that can apply to you.

And I’m not an American.

But then question is what do you have against Americans? Or against truth? Justice?

You are the one who claimed that no archaeologists and no Egyptologists agree with your claims.

Does people (eg Egyptologists) who disagree with you, are in some conspiracies? Or are you just wrong?

You are the one who believe in the Tower of Babel, which never exist. You are the one who who believe that Babel occurred around 4000 years ago or 2000 BCE. You are the one who believe that before Babel, only one ancient language was spoken. You are the who actually believe in the existence of Nephilim and the people who exist post-Babel were “Homo Omniscienis”. And you are the one who believe that Nephilim were superior scientists, more superior than modern science.

Can you verify any of that? Or is all that simply a conspiracy of your own making?
I believe it is more of a fantasy than a conspiracy.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You are the one who claimed that no archaeologists and no Egyptologists agree with your claims.

We are in complete agreement about the evidence.

We are in no agreement about its interpretation. I believe we are in no agreement because every one of their assumptions is wrong.

Does people (eg Egyptologists) who disagree with you, are in some conspiracies? Or are you just wrong?

I believe there is a high probability that the assumptions are wrong. It's a little more likely some of their conclusions are right.

You are the one who believe in the Tower of Babel, ... You are the one who who believe that Babel occurred around 4000 years ago or 2000 BCE. You are the one who believe that before Babel, only one ancient language was spoken. You are the who actually believe in the existence of Nephilim and the people who exist post-Babel were “Homo Omniscienis”.

"Homo Omnisciencis".

Very good. If you have any evidence or logic to show me wrong you should mention it. It seems no matter the subject the points of the "religious" perspective are just being overlooked and ignored. How many times have you been asked for evidence that shows a slow change in anything. Just like in real life most things come and go in a very short time. Even things on a geological time scale tend to have hard beginnings and hard ends. But somehow "species" is different. Maybe it's only different because you refuse to acknowledge "consciousness" even exists. Maybe if you looked at individuals you'd have a whole new perspective.

Can you verify any of that?

The only thing I have is evidence and logic. Everything is being misinterpreted. Everything we believe is either false or true only from limited perspective.

And you are the one who believe that Nephilim were superior scientists, more superior than modern science.

There is NOTHING superior about ancient science.

It is a weaker tool to understand nature than even modern science. But everything in ancient science was true within its metaphysics and each individual understood metaphysics. Most modern scientists do not. So a lot of science today is not science at all but self serving claptrap.
 
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