Different Opinions....Who is right?

[cladking]

The remainder is here - Tablet of the Universe

I see a lot of very keen insight here and agree with much of it.

However there are a couple of points with which I disagree.

"The birds of men's thoughts have escaped from the snares of superstitions, and the veils have been rent asunder and removed from those mysteries which previously held sway over men."

We believe we are capable of free thought but we are constrained by language. We are constrained by abstraction and definitions that lead in predictable directions most of the time.

I also disagree that we can understand God's will and creation only through metaphor. In a sense this is true probably but I believe it is possible to model nature directly. It will require great effort and decades of work but man is probably capable of it.

 

[gnostic]

I believe it is more of a fantasy than a conspiracy.

His claims about that all modern science is overshadowed by pre-2000 BCE “Ancient Science”. His claim that only one spoken language pre-2000 BCE and pre-Babel.

But his claims he is THE ONLY ONE who correctly interpret the pyramid texts and every archaeologists and translators were out there to challenge him and crush his alleged discovery...well, that’s a conspiracy theory and his ego of his deluded intellect.

 

[gnostic]

We are in complete agreement about the evidence.

We are in no agreement about its interpretation. I believe we are in no agreement because every one of their assumptions is wrong.



I believe there is a high probability that the assumptions are wrong. It's a little more likely some of their conclusions are right.



"Homo Omnisciencis".

Very good. If you have any evidence or logic to show me wrong you should mention it. It seems no matter the subject the points of the "religious" perspective are just being overlooked and ignored. How many times have you been asked for evidence that shows a slow change in anything. Just like in real life most things come and go in a very short time. Even things on a geological time scale tend to have hard beginnings and hard ends. But somehow "species" is different. Maybe it's only different because you refuse to acknowledge "consciousness" even exists. Maybe if you looked at individuals you'd have a whole new perspective.



The only thing I have is evidence and logic. Everything is being misinterpreted. Everything we believe is either false or true only from limited perspective.



There is NOTHING superior about ancient science.

It is a weaker tool to understand nature than even modern science. But everything in ancient science was true within its metaphysics and each individual understood metaphysics. Most modern scientists do not. So a lot of science today is not science at all but self serving claptrap.

That you believe in the Tower of Babel and that you believe in Nephilim, both from Genesis, demonstrated you believe in something that don’t exist.

No one can provide evidence for negative, and no one can provide evidence for something that don’t exist or that never happened.

Would you ask skeptics to provide evidence that pixies or ghouls don’t exist? No, you wouldn’t. You would ask someone who believe in them to present evidence.

If you are going to claim the negative is true, then it is you who must present evidence.

Show that only only one ancient language was spoken prior to the Tower of Babel. Evidence is needed here, to show your belief and claim are true.

You keep stating that the Pyramid Texts are science treatises, and not funerary texts of funerary rites and not texts of myths, then why are there similar hieroglyphs in the Middle Kingdom Coffin Texts give similar instructions in funerary rites and retell similar myths about the gods, the same gods and myths found in the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts.

Your claims that you use logic and evidence are not evident in your reply.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see a lot of very keen insight here and agree with much of it.

However there are a couple of points with which I disagree.

"The birds of men's thoughts have escaped from the snares of superstitions, and the veils have been rent asunder and removed from those mysteries which previously held sway over men."

We believe we are capable of free thought but we are constrained by language. We are constrained by abstraction and definitions that lead in predictable directions most of the time.

I also disagree that we can understand God's will and creation only through metaphor. In a sense this is true probably but I believe it is possible to model nature directly. It will require great effort and decades of work but man is probably capable of it.

The Tablet is an unofficial individuals provisional translation. It may be quite some time until it is translated officially. When that is done it takes many people to check over the final version. Thus it may have different wording in the new translation or the original may be accurate.

Regards Tony

 

[Dan From Smithville]

His claims about that all modern science is overshadowed by pre-2000 BCE “Ancient Science”. His claim that only one spoken language pre-2000 BCE and pre-Babel.

But his claims he is THE ONLY ONE who correctly interpret the pyramid texts and every archaeologists and translators were out there to challenge him and crush his alleged discovery...well, that’s a conspiracy theory and his ego of his deluded intellect.

Perhaps there is a fine line between fantasy and conspiracy theory. With ancient science on one side and the secret modern archaeology agenda on the other.

 

[cladking]

But his claims he is THE ONLY ONE who correctly interpret the pyramid texts and every archaeologists and translators were out there to challenge him and crush his alleged discovery

I have never said such a thing.

I said that Egyptologists are afraid not of me but of the pyramid. They have never used and published even century old technology to study the pyramid!!! They have never performed microscopic forensics or ultraviolet imaging. The list of ancient technology not being applied is very long. This is a matter of public record. After finally being shamed into doing simple infrared imaging 5 years ago they refuse to release the results because it shows they are WRONG. They have even stated they won't release results that prove they are wrong any longer. People aren't paying attention to what they are doing and not even peers have access to the data.

Egyptologists will simply evolve to become irrelevant to the study of the great pyramids and their builders.

No one can provide evidence for negative, and no one can provide evidence for something that don’t exist or that never happened.

I've shown extensive evidence there were no ramps. I've used logic and evidence to show that misinterpretation is the primary reason we believe in "survival of the fittest". I've shown logic to suggest that ancient stories about a universal language shared by a different species of human did exist and their extinction is misinterpreted in the story of "babel" and others in the Bible.

What you have is a "science" founded on the assumption that ancient people were ignorant and superstitious but we're all better now. Of course this belief prevents you from even seeing the question of how humans invented agriculture and cities with no science. You can'tr see the question so you won't attempt to answer it. To you it's perfectly natural that highly superstitious people can become strong enough to drag 6 1/2 million tons up a ramp. You can't see that superstition is only and always a destructive force and your belief that it is powerful is a superstition.

People don't see that evolution is a product of random events that arises through the behavior of individuals more like the Bible suggests than like our belief in superstition and fitness. There are no "men", only individuals who are each different and each equally fit. Behavior is the primary determinant of the nature of future generations, not how much money, power, or gym memberships one can grub.

You keep stating that the Pyramid Texts are science treatises,...

NO!!!

The Pyramid Texts IS NOT a book of incantation. Nor is it a science book.

It is merely a book of rituals that were read at the kings' ascension ceremonies and it was written in a different kind of language which is similar to computer code. It is a natural language that arose from the wiring of the human brain which manifests the exact same logic as nature and math do. Since it is logical it can be used directly with observation as metaphysics. It is the same natural language that termites used to invent agriculture and air conditioned cities.

I can't understand this language any better than an Egyptologist. But I didn't try to find the authors' premises with Egyptological assumptions and conclude it is gobbledty gook as they did. I assumed it made sense and I was merely seeking their premises. Much to my surprise I began understanding bits of it since the INTENDED MEANING is the same as the LITERAL MEANING. I began making models of the language and it makes sense when run through the models. I can't think like an Egyptian for a multitude of reasons like that they didn't even have a word for "think" because... ...wait for it... ...they didn't think. Indeed, they had no abstractions at all.

The PT is silly little ritual that Egyptologists have misunderstood, misapprehended, misinterpreted into a sort of "bible of nonsense".

 

[gnostic]

Perhaps there is a fine line between fantasy and conspiracy theory. With ancient science on one side and the secret modern archaeology agenda on the other.

Add one ancient science to secret modern archaeology agenda would equal to a whole lot of crazies.

 

[gnostic]

I've shown extensive evidence there were no ramps. I've used logic and evidence to show that misinterpretation is the primary reason we believe in "survival of the fittest". I've shown logic to suggest that ancient stories about a universal language shared by a different species of human did exist and their extinction is misinterpreted in the story of "babel" and others in the Bible.

What you have is a "science" founded on the assumption that ancient people were ignorant and superstitious but we're all better now. Of course this belief prevents you from even seeing the question of how humans invented agriculture and cities with no science. You can'tr see the question so you won't attempt to answer it. To you it's perfectly natural that highly superstitious people can become strong enough to drag 6 1/2 million tons up a ramp. You can't see that superstition is only and always a destructive force and your belief that it is powerful is a superstition.

There you go again.

Ramps, bloody ramps.

Do have a comprehension disability?

I keep telling you that I have never advocated ramps. This is nothing but strawman.

I have never brought up ramps...you did, and you keep accusing me of being advocate for ramps since the Ancient Reality thread.

Get this in your conspiracy-filled head of yours, cladking. I don’t give a blood crap if ramps were used or not!

 

[Dan From Smithville]

There you go again.

Ramps, bloody ramps.

Do have a comprehension disability?

I keep telling you that I have never advocated ramps. This is nothing but strawman.

I have never brought up ramps...you did, and you keep accusing me of being advocate for ramps since the Ancient Reality thread.

Get this in your conspiracy-filled head of yours, cladking. I don’t give a blood crap if ramps were used or not!

Of course it wasn't ramps. It was alien anti-gravity generators. But we are prevented from knowing that by another conspiracy run by the government.

I am really starting to come around to this fantasy-conspiracy-belief basis to explain the world. It saves a lot of time looking for evidence or with effectively evaluating existing evidence. Just make an answer up and imagine it is true. It's easy to the point of indolence and apathy.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Add one ancient science to secret modern archaeology agenda would equal to a whole lot of crazies.

Don't forget the termite civilizations.

 

[cladking]

Just make an answer up and imagine it is true. It's easy to the point of indolence and apathy.

"Making things up" to fit the available evidence is what Einstein called "imagination" and I call "hypothesis formation".

This is remarkably easy for some people just as the invention of technology or experiment design is easy for some people.

Who would imagine the builders said exactly how they built the pyramids and how species change in a language that makes sense only when taken literally!!! What are the odds of that!?

 

[cladking]

I keep telling you that I have never advocated ramps.

What you or I believe no longer matters in a world of peer review where even the Peers are not privy to the data.

The ONLY thing that matters is what Egyptologists believe and every single one of them will use big words and long sentences that eventually render down to "they mustta used ramps".

Why can't you understand this, the meaning of "metaphysics", or that one must believe people are conspiring to believe in conspiracies? Nothing is complicated here. If it were complicated I could never have imagined it. The reality is nothing man does has been complicated since "babel". We think in abstractions on the shoulders of giants which do or did most of the thinking for us.

That last idea that you probably didn't even see was the most complicated idea in the whole post and it is not very complicated if you understood the other simple concepts.

 

[gnostic]

What you or I believe no longer matters in a world of peer review where even the Peers are not privy to the data.

And I have already told in the past, that there is no such as peer peer review for archaeological finds or for any translation of ancient languages.

Peer Review is for mainly Natural Science, not for any fields of Social Science or fields of Humanities.

The studies of literature, languages/linguistics, philology, translations all fall under Humanities, not under Natural Science.

But if you wanted to date some things like the walls of chambers that contain writings (eg Pyramid Texts of Unas’ pyramid) or painting or relief sculptures, or you wanted to date writing on coffins or sarcophagi (eg Coffin Texts) or dating some papyri scrolls or manuscripts made from parchment, using radiocarbon dating, then science are getting involved.

Radiometric dating required understanding of materials that they are dating, and detecting how much carbon 14 isotopes still exist. That involved science.

Translating hieroglyphs into English, don’t involved natural science at all, therefore translations are not subjected to Peer Review.

What science do or don’t get involve in, depending on what they are actually doing.

Peer Review isn’t needed for archaeology such as digging at site, or identifying items, eg styles of painting, sculptures or pottery, bronze or iron tools, minted gold, silver of copper coins, etc.

Painting fall under the category of art and humanities, not science, hence Peer Review isn’t required, not unless you want to examine the chemical properties of paints being used or medium that were painted on (eg canvas, wood, plaster from walls), or that you want to date the artwork.

My point is that Peer Review don’t get involve in translations of texts or with studies the styles of paintings or sculptures.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Don't forget the termite civilizations.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Those things still impress me. Some of the tropical ant nests are incredibly impressive too, but, unfortunately, all are below ground.

 

[gnostic]

Why can't you understand this, the meaning of "metaphysics", or that one must believe people are conspiring to believe in conspiracies? Nothing is complicated here.

Really, cladking?

Aren’t you the one who said there are no word for “belief”, therefore there be no religions and gods in ancient Egypt during the Old Kingdom period or earlier?

If what you said is true, if there is no word for metaphysics in Old Kingdom Egypt (or earlier), and by your (warped) logic, then “metaphysics” shouldn’t exist then.

And yet, knowing you as I do, you would make some rather lame excuses that metaphysics is an exception, therefore existing prior to the imaginary mark 2000 BCE, when the Tower of Babel was built.

Conspiracy theory and fantasy rolled into one.

 

[gnostic]

"Making things up" to fit the available evidence is what Einstein called "imagination" and I call "hypothesis formation".

If you are talking about “hypothesis” as the term used in science, to define a draft explanatory model, then no, it isn’t merely “imagination”.

More often not, there are the initial observations that kick off a person trying and wanting to understand the natural phenomena.

For instances, Charles Darwin didn’t formulate his hypothesis - Natural Selection - by imagining Evolution - when he wrote and then have published On Origin Of Species in 1859.

No, it started after his studies, he joined a crew onboard HMS Beagle from 1831-1836, recording his findings in his travel log or journal, taking whatever samples that the captain would allow onboard. Upon his return, he spend years not only researching his notes, but also by examining collection from the museums and university that he worked.

That’s over 30 years of hard work and trying to understanding what he have collected and seen, and what his colleagues brought back, before he finally published the first of works about Natural Selection and Evolution.

And even Albert Einstein didn’t simply just came up with idea of Relativity from nothing. It was the initial observations that sparked his interests and his needs to understand the phenomena of spacetime (with Special Relativity, 1905) and of gravity (General Relativity, 1917). More definitive observations/evidence and experiments came later by other physicists.

Even with Photoelectric Effect, Einstein didn’t simply come up idea without some initial observations, prior to writing his papers.

You are expressing a very narrow view of how scientists work.

 

[cladking]

You are expressing a very narrow view of how scientists work.

No. I am rendering how science works down to a few words like a mnemonic. It is a very very broad view of how science works. Only by expanding on it does it become a narrow view. If you understood how science works then you'd know this.

That’s over 30 years of hard work and trying to understanding what he have collected and seen, and what his colleagues brought back, before he finally published the first of works about Natural Selection and Evolution.

No. You can't find how nature works by examining your notes or looking at birds. It requires experiment to learn how nature works. No matter how hard he tried to achieve a gradual change he'd have found all changes were sudden. Looking at notes and seeing birds is the basis of "Look and See Science" which is not really science at all.

And yet, knowing you as I do, you would make some rather lame excuses that metaphysics is an exception, therefore existing prior to the imaginary mark 2000 BCE, when the Tower of Babel was built.

All things that exist exist. It doesn't matter if we can observe them or not, reality is reality. If we can't see them they still exist.

The closest word Egyptians had for metaphysics was "heka" But this would be a poor translation (and don't forget translation is impossible). They couldn't see metaphysics at all and even said so "human progress has no feminine progenitor". They couldn't see it because they couldn't think and the fact they had no word for "think" is proof of this. If they thought at all they would observe the fact they thought and invented the word "thought". They had no abstractions at all but science was still based on a metaphysics that we can only think of as an abstraction. The metaphysics was the universal language which was natural and as logical as the wiring of the brain.

You can never come to understand their complex metaphysics if you can't even understand our simple metaphysics. You can't even grasp the concept of the meaning of the word; it is how science works. It does not work by reading our notes while being a peer and a genius. It requires the entire scientific process including and most especially "experiment".

And I have stated again and again and again, that I don’t give a crap if ramps were used or not.

Your reading comprehension makes you a prime candidate to become an Egyptological Peer.

egyptological peer - Google Search

Translating hieroglyphs into English, don’t involved natural science at all, therefore translations are not subjected to Peer Review.

!

Perhaps you can provide a list of things that don't obey or are irrelevant to "natural law" and "God's will".



There is nothing in this post that is complex. Indeed, if anything at all were complex there would be no rocket surgery or brain science. The reality is that reality itself is composed of simple logic and our complex science merely is uncovering a little tiny bit of this simple logic. Science doesn't work because of "peer review" or "looking and seeing". It works because some individual had a thought that could be refined into an EXPERIMENT. There are no "scientists" and no "rabbits". We use abstraction to find the laws of nature but abstractions aren't real so our very formatting of natural logic is "wrong". From our perspective it is hard to see what's real and what's not. "Thought" is real but it wasn't real to "Homo Sapiens" before they became extinct. You won't understand any of this post not because it's wrong (it might be) or because it is too complex (it is not); you won't understand it because you reject every definition and axiom. You see what you believe just like Darwin and St Thomas Aquinas. You are locked into this and don't even know it.

 

[cladking]

Science is only beginning to scratch the surface of the natural world; the biological world. We are only beginning to even recognize communication within species and there is communication between species if Homo Sapiens are to be believed. Small inroads are only now being made in translating some of this language. The bee's waggle dance for instance is likely to be found to be only a small part of their ability to communicate simple things. The "dancer" has the floor only because it is information everyone needs to have. Termites must communicate to have invented agriculture and cities full of sky scrapers.

We ascribe human success to "intelligence". I do not. It is "obviously" complex language that propelled man to dominate the planet and the failure of this language that caused millennia long dark ages that was only alleviated by the invention of science (ironically by religious people). I've never seen evidence of "intelligence" in humans. There are only individuals and events that require cleverness.

 

[cladking]

Aren’t you the one who said there are no word for “belief”, therefore there be no religions and gods in ancient Egypt during the Old Kingdom period or earlier?

If what you said is true, if there is no word for metaphysics in Old Kingdom Egypt (or earlier), and by your (warped) logic, then “metaphysics” shouldn’t exist then.

Our metaphysics is based on ideas and abstractions just like our language. We can easily spell it out since it is simply "observation > experiment". Every part of this is conceptualized in language and abstraction and some individuals have put great thought into the nature of our metaphysics;

https://www.hrstud.unizg.hr/_downlo...etaphysical_Foundations_of_Modern_Science.pdf

But ancient metaphysics was invisible to Homo Sapiens (wise men) who still survived at that time. It was invisible because it was language itself. Science was "observation > logic". These people didn't even "think" and had no words to express "thought" or any abstraction at all. How could an individual who didn't think even know that science and metaphysics underlie all progress and invention? Complex language is the ladder used to climb onto the shoulders of giants but if you lack abstraction then you lack the ability to see this. Even we modern people tend to believe that human success is based on opposable thumbs, fire, the printing press, internet, genius, or "science" rather than the complex language and abstractions used to study nature and frame it in models even the dim witted or babies can understand. We are Homo Omnisciencis and don't need no stinkin' shoulders because we have already lifted ourselves up by the boot straps. We see what we believe and ancient people could see only what they understood. We see reality in terms of belief and they saw it in terms of all human knowledge (which was limited at that time). It is this that separates man from animals, from nature, and from "God". We are a confused version Homo Sapiens who believe people were once superstitious but we're all better now. When God confused the language it STAYED confused and it is still confused.