Different Opinions....Who is right?

[Milton Platt]

That's easy....this world is not the one God created.....this world is ruled by God's adversary. (Romans 5:12) The Bible says he is powerful, and controls what goes on down here.....you think he can't manipulate nature like he can manipulate humans? More people than ever are waking up to the fact that the current situation is simply not natural.....with one devastating disaster after another, in country after country, they are beginning to wonder about what evil force is creating all these disasters.....in global and epidemic proportions...this cannot be the work of mere humans.

In this current pandemic crisis, (with SARS and MERS already unleashed) a little research will reveal that scientists in China have been working on bat corona viruses that could be transmitted to humans. It dates back to 2004.

Birth defects are a product of gene mutations which can produce all manner of abnormalities. These gene mutations generally mean detrimental defects and the affected creatures are not good specimens for reproduction. This is what makes evolution a fairy story to me.....when are mutations ever beneficial? Its extremely rare. God did not create defective things.....his creation was originally perfect.

These sad examples demonstrate why God is not ruling this world.....

Top 10 Rare Mutations That Defy Our Definition Of Human - Listverse

Ahhhh I see...there is someone more powerful than god. okay.

 

[Deeje]

Ahhhh I see...there is someone more powerful than god. okay.

Did I say that?

There is no one more powerful than God.....he is allowing the pretender to prove his claims of being the better ruler of mankind....the devil never challenged God's power.....he only challenged his right to make the rules. If people understood the reasons why God has done what he did....instead of putting their own spin on what they think he did, they would not be so hasty in making their judgments.

 

[Milton Platt]

Did I say that?

There is no one more powerful than God.....he is allowing the pretender to prove his claims of being the better ruler of mankind....the devil never challenged God's power.....he only challenged his right to make the rules. If people understood the reasons why God has done what he did....instead of putting their own spin on what they think he did, they would not be so hasty in making their judgments.

So if your god permits it, then he is responsible for it happening, right? I mean, if you stand by and watch a murder or rape and do nothing about it, don't you think you have some culpability, especially if you created the conditions for the event to happen?

 

[Valjean]

So if your god permits it, then he is responsible for it happening, right? I mean, if you stand by and watch a murder or rape and do nothing about it, don't you think you have some culpability, especially if you created the conditions for the event to happen?

"Not a sparrow falls...."

 

[Thief]

That's what is called a "false dichotomy".

it's one or the other

but as the post above demonstrates
the chemical mechanism that God set is motion
is not being controlled at every level

 

[Thief]

So if your god permits it, then he is responsible for it happening, right? I mean, if you stand by and watch a murder or rape and do nothing about it, don't you think you have some culpability, especially if you created the conditions for the event to happen?

so draw sword and pretend you are angelic

like the two angels sent to kill Sodom and Gomorrah

 

[Deeje]

So if your god permits it, then he is responsible for it happening, right? I mean, if you stand by and watch a murder or rape and do nothing about it, don't you think you have some culpability, especially if you created the conditions for the event to happen?

Are you always this skillful at interpreting the statements of those you disagree with?

Allowing something to happen, even if its painful is not the same as causing it.

Let me illustrate....
I you had a child with a genetic abnormality and doctors confirm that surgery will correct it with no lasting after effects...would you permit it? The doctor tells you that it is a very painful procedure that will need to be done in stages and the recovery period will be quite lengthy. Do you toss up whether the pain is worth it?.....Does the end result justify the pain? A painful experience, if it teaches you something, can be an advantage.

The Bible says that God was put in that position by a rebellious spirit creature who challenged his right to rule his intelligent creation, inferring that he was a lousy parent and that they would become like God if they knew good and evil for themselves. Was he right? God could have zapped the rebels out of existence and started again, but what would that have proven...only that God is more powerful. He allowed all the rebels to experience what they had chosen of their own free will. And the world we live in is the result, as God knew it would be. We apparently can't be told....we have to learn the hard way....but sometimes that is the best way to prove a point. I think that humans have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they are incapable of self rule. Tell me when humans have ever had good incorrupt rulers?

 

[Deeje]

To ignore science or to deny its validity in an effort to preserve one's theological notions about God, is to me, to deny God itself, and ignore the miracle of evolution, which itself, is how creation from God happens in the first place.

I guess it all boils down to what you believe, and why you believe it.

Nothing comes from nothing and "nature" is not of itself an intelligent entity. Nature is programmed, like everything else in the universe. It demonstrates order and functions according to its pre-determined programming...laws need a law maker. Every program that involves the transmission of information has to be authored by an intelligent mind and carried out according to the programmer's instructions. For something to demonstrate design, it has to have a designer...where in human experience is that not so? Design denotes purpose...purpose requires intelligence and intelligence requires a mind and an ability to carry out what is required.

I see creation as part of the Creator's overall purpose.....the reason why anything exists. If there is no reason for why anything exists, then there is no hope of anything getting any better. We as a species are on a downward spiral and if the Creator does not halt this destructive process, then he is opposing the purpose of his own creation...and his first purpose for this planet and the living things upon it will go unfulfilled. As the Almighty, I believe that he will never let that happen.

Why do you think we are here?

 

[Deeje]

"Not a sparrow falls...."

YES.....It is observed.....that doesn't mean that God must act to save every sparrow.....he is just keeping account for now, letting us know that he is aware of everything that takes place....those who keep the faith 'are worth more than many sparrows'.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I came across this today....its a Flower Mantis.....beautifully designed to be camouflaged on the flowers it lives on.

Science would describe how this just evolved with no intelligent direction at all.

Believers would see an exquisitely crafted creature designed by an intelligent Creator to be invisible to predators but facilitating catching prey of its own.

This creature is as beautiful as the flowers that it walks on.....so what makes the most sense....deliberate and thoughtful creation....or just an accident of nature?

What about this one...

Who could imagine that such beauty could be hidden under a living leaf?

Or this guy who just perfectly blends in with his surroundings....?

How about a bit of floating seaweed?

Spot the owl...

Chameleons are just incredible...

Did nature just fluke these? Or was this camouflage clever and deliberate creation?

I am a believer and I recognize the results of evolution. No flukes. That is a fallacy perpetuated by the ignorant and the deceitful to falsely paint evolution as some sort of chaotic mess.

The camouflage and mimicry are the result of genetic variation acted upon by natural selection.

What someone chooses to believe is not supported by any evidence and cannot be used in science as an answer. It could be right. It could be wrong. How could any scientist know to say anything useful using belief?

 

[Deeje]

Evolution isn't an 'opinion'; it is a proven fact/theory.

No, no, no....you have to understand that science requires no "proof"......they just need "evidence" which they can interpret to suit what they want to believe. There is NO PROOF for any of it. Its a monumental con job.

Things really have not changed much down through the ages. Evolution is in vogue now because people have been convinced that it is a scientific fact. But the fact is...there are no facts.

In the first century C.E., when Greek philosophy and Roman law were in vogue, the apostle Paul was inspired to write: “The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: ‘He catches the wise in their own cunning.’ And again: ‘Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.’ Hence let no one be boasting in men.” (1 Corinthians 3:19-21)

I believe that there will be no unbelievers in the world in the near future....."the reasonings of the wise men" will come to nothing....and so will all who swallow their unproven theories.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

In addition:

If God made all creatures vegetarian (as per the bible) and later on some of those herbivores became carnivores, was that change God's doing as well?

And if evolution is false, do you think then that we couldn't make accurate predictions of it? And what does it mean to its validity if we could use the ToE to make accurate predictions?

And if useful in this way, then why can we make accurate predictions based off ToE and how does this compare to the predictability of the idea of an intelligent designer?

It is an interesting notion that God made all animals herbivores and some of these later became carnivores. Carnivory, or herbivory for that matter, require more than just a switch in what is eaten. Both food source options require a host of physical, physiological and biochemical systems in order to secure nutrition. Then the question would be why allow such a change. The fall of man is often the go to reason, but what did the poor animals do.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No, no, no....you have to understand that science requires no "proof"......they just need "evidence" which they can interpret to suit what they want to believe. There is NO PROOF for any of it. Its a monumental con job.

Things really have not changed much down through the ages. Evolution is in vogue now because people have been convinced that it is a scientific fact. But the fact is...there are no facts.

In the first century C.E., when Greek philosophy and Roman law were in vogue, the apostle Paul was inspired to write: “The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: ‘He catches the wise in their own cunning.’ And again: ‘Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.’ Hence let no one be boasting in men.” (1 Corinthians 3:19-21)

I believe that there will be no unbelievers in the world in the near future....."the reasonings of the wise men" will come to nothing....and so will all who swallow their unproven theories.

I understand that you willfully choose to not understand science, promote misinformation about science and reject it for reasons that are entirely based on the doctrine of the sect you follow.

The facts of evolution are the evidence of change over time. To deny this is the face of these facts would be foolish.

 

[Deeje]

This elegant relationship is called an "emergent property" of gases (Boyle's Law).
It can be fully explained from simple mechanical interaction of gas molecules
(although the physics involves some math I've long since forgotten).
Nothing needs to guide the molecules to explain this emergent property.
(This is actually just part of a more elaborate & elegant property involving
temperature & other factors.)

Yep got it......

Now back to evolution, & a simple definition our system (life)....
1) Gazillions of organism interactions over many years...millions & even billions.
2) Some organisms are more successful than others, eg, live longer, are healthier.
3) Successful ones tend to pass on their genes more often than the losers.
4) Random changes to genes happen now & then.
5) A small percentage of these changes make an organism more successful.

Hang on...how come we have jumped from gases to organisms?

Are you made of gas? Does Mrs Revoltingest think so? (better not answer that)

Analyzing this system would explain the emergent property of evolution.
As with our simple gas system, I'd expect this more complex system to
yield elegant emergent properties. And they'ed be far more varied,
as your pictures of diverse adaptions show.

I marvel at the perfection of the creatures I posted...these are not shots in the dark or close enough to the real McCoy, but perfect replicas of the their environments.....I can't see how that takes place accidentally. If you study the pictures closely, you will see absolute mimicry.

Of course, this doesn't say anything about a supreme being.
Evolution should occur whether gods exist or not.
For those who believe in them, I advise considering that they
set up the universe & laws of physics such that evolution would
occur, ie, it is one of their tools.

There is no real evidence (proof) that evolution on the macro scale ever took place. We clearly see adaptation, but this is confined to one family of related creatures....it never takes any creature out of, or beyond its taxonomy. If evolution were true then many species morphed into completely different creatures. (see whale evolution as an example) The theory is based on assumptions and suggestions about what "may have"..."might have"..."could have" taken place in the past. But since no one was there to document the process, science is left with bits of circumstantial evidence, the pieces of which they have cleverly strung together to tell the story without any concrete proof ever being offered. They "believe" that it happened that way. I "believe" that the Creator designed his families of creatures with the ability to adapt and to create many new varieties within those families. This is the only part of evolution that they can actually prove. To suggest that adaptation can go beyond that is mere speculation.....based on pure imagination.

Darwin did not observe evolution on the Galapagos Islands.....he saw adaptation....and ran away with an idea.

When science tells you that it has "mountains of evidence"....it really has 'mountains' of suggestions and unprovable assertions.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yep got it......



Hang on...how come we have jumped from gases to organisms?

Are you made of gas? Does Mrs Revoltingest think so? (better not answer that)



I marvel at the perfection of the creatures I posted...these are not shots in the dark or close enough to the real McCoy, but perfect replicas of the their environments.....I can't see how that takes place accidentally. If you study the pictures closely, you will see absolute mimicry.



There is no real evidence (proof) that evolution on the macro scale ever took place. We clearly see adaptation, but this is confined to one family of related creatures....it never takes any creature out of, or beyond its taxonomy. If evolution were true then many species morphed into completely different creatures. (see whale evolution as an example) The theory is based on assumptions and suggestions about what "may have"..."might have"..."could have" taken place in the past. But since no one was there to document the process, science is left with bits of circumstantial evidence, the pieces of which they have cleverly strung together to tell the story without any concrete proof ever being offered. They "believe" that it happened that way. I "believe" that the Creator designed his families of creatures with the ability to adapt and to create many new varieties within those families. This is the only part of evolution that they can actually prove. To suggest that adaptation can go beyond that is mere speculation.....based on pure imagination.

Darwin did not observe evolution on the Galapagos Islands.....he saw adaptation....and ran away with an idea.

When science tells you that it has "mountains of evidence"....it really has 'mountains' of suggestions and unprovable assertions.

Just because you cannot see it does not mean evolution is not there, or that your denial of it is suddenly elevated to a fact. Your personal beliefs are not the default position on matters of science.

 

[Tiberius]

I came across this today....its a Flower Mantis.....beautifully designed to be camouflaged on the flowers it lives on.

Science would describe how this just evolved with no intelligent direction at all.

Believers would see an exquisitely crafted creature designed by an intelligent Creator to be invisible to predators but facilitating catching prey of its own.

This creature is as beautiful as the flowers that it walks on.....so what makes the most sense....deliberate and thoughtful creation....or just an accident of nature?

What about this one...

Who could imagine that such beauty could be hidden under a living leaf?

Or this guy who just perfectly blends in with his surroundings....?

How about a bit of floating seaweed?

Spot the owl...

Chameleons are just incredible...

Did nature just fluke these? Or was this camouflage clever and deliberate creation?

Neither. There was no intelligent agency at work, but it wasn't just a fluke.

Do you know what natural selection is and how it works?

 

[Deeje]

Neither. There was no intelligent agency at work, but it wasn't just a fluke.

Do you know what natural selection is and how it works?

Yes I do.....but it doesn't explain how all the diverse creatures on this planet supposedly came from a single celled organism.....that just happened to pop into existence in the primordial soup one day, for no apparent reason.

Can you tell me how that works?

 

[Tiberius]

Yes I do.....but it doesn't explain how all the diverse creatures on this planet supposedly came from a single celled organism.....that just happened to pop into existence in the primordial soup one day, for no apparent reason.

Can you tell me how that works?

There's no clear evidence for how life first originated.

But that's abiogenesis, NOT evolution.

And if you actually DID understand evolution and natural selection, then you wouldn't claim that evolution and natural selection couldn't explain how all the diverse creatures on this planet supposedly came from a single celled organism. Evolution and natural selection explains it very well.

 

[Valjean]

I guess it all boils down to what you believe, and why you believe it.

Nothing comes from nothing and "nature" is not of itself an intelligent entity. Nature is programmed, like everything else in the universe. It demonstrates order and functions according to its pre-determined programming...laws need a law maker. Every program that involves the transmission of information has to be authored by an intelligent mind and carried out according to the programmer's instructions. For something to demonstrate design, it has to have a designer...where in human experience is that not so? Design denotes purpose...purpose requires intelligence and intelligence requires a mind and an ability to carry out what is required.

I see creation as part of the Creator's overall purpose.....the reason why anything exists. If there is no reason for why anything exists, then there is no hope of anything getting any better. We as a species are on a downward spiral and if the Creator does not halt this destructive process, then he is opposing the purpose of his own creation...and his first purpose for this planet and the living things upon it will go unfulfilled. As the Almighty, I believe that he will never let that happen.

Nothing comes from nothing
Nature is programmed
laws need a law maker
Every program that involves the transmission of information has to be authored by an intelligent mind and carried out according to the programmer's instructions.
For something to demonstrate design, it has to have a designer.
Design denotes purpose.
purpose requires intelligence and intelligence requires a mind

Your whole creationist argument is based on these sweeping generalizations, and these generalizations are based on your own social experiences and experience with human technology. They are not founded on science or reason. They sound reasonable, on the surface, but they are scientifically unsupported.

I see creation as part of the Creator's overall purpose.....the reason why anything exists.

You seem unable to reconcile yourself to the possibility that there is no purpose, or that "fulfillment" is a product of your own efforts.

Why do you think we are here?

Why do you feel there must be a 'why?'

 

[Deeje]

"...exquisitely crafted creature designed by an intelligent Creator to be invisible to predators but facilitating catching prey of its own..."

What I find fascinating here is the question of why you stopped? Why did this "intelligent Creator" wish to create a world in which some of its creation was designed to prey, and others designed to be prey?

Doesn't science call that "the food chain"? If these creatures have no morality or conception of their own demise, what do you see as wrong? The fact that these creatures are beautiful I believe, is for our benefit. I don't see other creatures admiring beauty for the sake of it...do you? I never see cows gazing at a sunset or admiring the beauty of a water view....they just eat and sleep and fertilize the grass.

Even looking at beautiful mantids, the fact is that some of them will be prey themselves anyway...the females so often enjoying a tasty meal of the males after bumping their uglies.

In this world, for now, this is the way things are...but it is not the way God created it to be. No creature was designed to harm another. The only flesh eaters originally were the carrion creatures that God used as the clean up crew, disposing of dead organisms so that the earth doesn't become a stinking pile of dead things. Considering how many living things die every day, their efficiency is amazing.

According to scripture all living things were originally vegetarians. I believe that we will return to that diet, once God has sorted things out down here.

It's very easy to set up scenarios that seem to validate our opinions -- so long as we make our scenarios wildly incomplete. You would do better to acknowledge, first and foremost, that EVERYTHING THAT LIVES is ultimately prey to something else, and almost everything that lives preys on something else, as well.

So do us all a favour -- complete your thesis by including that last fact, and then try answering your own question again: "Did nature just fluke these? Or was this camouflage clever and deliberate creation?"

In this world everything is predatory in one form or another. It has to be to survive. But this is not the world that God created....it is the second rate imitation of life that was given to us by a pretender who hijacked the human race for his own agenda....he is the one who claimed that we should be able to do whatever we want. It made humankind into predators.....right from the beginning, humans have been killing other humans.
Their permission to eat animal flesh came later....after the flood. God even had to instill 'fear of man' into the animals to give them a fighting chance. He never told us why he changed our diet.....but there must have been a need.

I assume that you have no answers because no one ever gave you any. What is wildly incomplete is the worldview promoted by evolutionists. This view clouds all the issues and its frustrating when the answers are not forthcoming. We as a species have a need for purpose....a need to know why we exist. No other creature does.

How does evolution explain how life arose....or the existence of the great diversity of living things on this planet? Or the existence of the Universe? When you take God away, you take away all meaning to our existence. We are here for a reason and I believe that God will restore his original purpose for us once he has brought in the rulership of his Kingdom. I look forward to that.