Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

[Trailblazer]

If the end of this statement was "are important in your religion", then yes, they are.
If the end of this statement was "are important in my religion", then so what? Their words are meaningless when you re-interpret their words to say whatever you want, rather than the message their texts convey.

Books do not talk. The texts do not convey anything. People read those texts and interpret the words on the page. People all think they have the ONE correct meaning. How can anyone know which meaning is correct? Why can't they have more than one meaning?

Everyone in every religion thinks they alone know what their texts convey, but the fact remains that believers within the same religion disagree about what those texts convey... This presents a logical problem. This problem is not resolvable, thus Jews will continue to be divided and Christians will continue to be divided, unless and until they accept the fact that they do not know everything, and only God knows what those scriptures were intended to mean.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176​

 

[Trailblazer]

This verse tells us, that God only spoke to Moses clearly, and not in riddles. Many of the Parts of the Bible are conversations between God to other prophets, which according to this verse are not much clear. They are in riddles. Perhaps the readers of the Book would not clearly understand them. The Book also in several places says, it is sealed until the Time of End, in such a way that would be difficult to understand. To claim that the adherents of these Holy Books completely understood everything right does not seem to be in line with what the Book itself saying.

All religions were Truth from God, but the followers of those religions did not FULLY understand their scriptures and there was no RELIABLE source one could turn to for accurate interpretation.

The Bible requires accurate interpretation to be fully understood. The Bible was never fully understood, which is why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.

That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel:for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

It is reasonable to assume that the Baha’i Faith is the religion that knows what the Bible really means because the "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i scriptures we can understand the true meaning of the Bible.

However, the beleivers in the older religions do not want to know what the Bible really means, if it means that the Bahai Faith is the Truth from God, because that would mean that their religion is not the only true religion of God and they would have to rethink their entire belief system. So most people will continue to believe what they believe, unless they are actively searching for something else.

 

[Tumah]

But God spoke to prophets in an unclear language:

“When there is a prophet among you,

I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,

I speak to them in dreams.

7But this is not true of my servant Moses;

he is faithful in all my house.

8With him I speak face to face,

clearly and not in riddles;

he sees the form of the Lord.

Why then were you not afraid

to speak against my servant Moses?”

Numbers 12

This verse tells us, that God only spoke to Moses clearly, and not in riddles. Many of the Parts of the Bible are conversations between God to other prophets, which according to this verse are not much clear. They are in riddles. Perhaps the readers of the Book would not clearly understand them.

With this logic, you've totally nullified the benefit of instituting any prophets after Moses. Why should anyone have taken into account anything they said? Maybe they just didn't understand the message because G-d spoke to them in riddles. When the prophets were chastising the nation for distancing themselves from G-d - that was all a misinterpretation. They didn't get what G-d was really trying to tell them, because G-d spoke to them in riddles. Therefore, He should never have punished the nation, because no one had any reason to trust any message the prophet was giving was in fact the true explanation of the riddle. That would be unfair.

The Book also in several places says, it is sealed until the Time of End, in such a way that would be difficult to understand. To claim that the adherents of these Holy Books completely understood everything right does not seem to be in line with what the Book itself saying.

You mean Daniel. The whole Jewish Bible is not one book, it's many Books. Daniel is the one that was sealed - specifically the part of his message that would impinge on our hope for the Messiah.

 

[Tumah]

Books do not talk. The texts do not convey anything. People read those texts and interpret the words on the page. People all think they have the ONE correct meaning. How can anyone know which meaning is correct? Why can't they have more than one meaning?

Everyone in every religion thinks they alone know what their texts convey, but the fact remains that beleivers within the same religion disagree about what those texts convey... This presents a logical problem. This problem is not resolvable, thus Jews and Christians will continue to be divided until they accept the fact that Only God knows what those scriptures were intended to mean.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176​

That is absurd. The purpose of language is to convey the intent of the speaker. Certainly an omnipotent G-d should be able to convey His intent in a text. If you're correct, than you've completely negated the argument of Deut. 30:11-14. It's irrelevant that the Torah is easily physically accessible since according to your belief, it's not possible to know the correct interpretation.

 

[Tumah]

As this statement is applicable to the answer given below, then that would be a good reply;



Regards Tony

Your quoted text is absurd because it works backwards: the messianic claimant is right and then we need to figure out how to fit him into the text. That's a ridiculous way to verify the authenticity of...anything really.

 

[Marcion]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

For people of one tradition the authors of those holy scriptures are seen as authoritative but to people of other traditions those authors are not seen as authoritative.

I don't see the authors of the New Testament as having any authority regarding the status of Jesus or Moses nor do I see the authors of the Quran as authoritative on the status of Muhammed, Jesus or Moses nor Bahaullah or his successors as authoritative on the status of any other teacher including themselves.

I don't believe that "God speaks through those holy scriptures" (i.e. not so very holy) in an authoritative way because of this (not for the past, nor for today, nor for the future).
But there are other scriptures where I do believe that a higher authority is teaching more sensible things about the status of certain teachers.

So the disagreement comes because most authors and teachers don't have the visionary power that they themselves or others for them claim. So they made up things (myths) which contradict with other myths. The Bahai tried to harmonize those myths by creating yet another mythical projection.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is absurd. The purpose of language is to convey the intent of the speaker. Certainly an omnipotent G-d should be able to convey His intent in a text. If you're correct, than you've completely negated the argument of Deut. 30:11-14. It's irrelevant that the Torah is easily physically accessible since according to your belief, it's not possible to know the correct interpretation.

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
​

To me those verses mean that you can understand enough of the word in order to obey it. It makes sense that God would make clear what was really important for you to understand, so God made the Laws clear because otherwise God could not have expected you to obey them, but that does not mean you can understand every single verse in the Torah inerrantly, especially those verses which have very abstruse meanings or verses that could mean more than one thing. That is where the problems arise.

Look at all the disagreements between Christians over the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus God or not? Not all Christians agree. Jews agree on the nature of God, but they are not in complete agreement about the meanings of all the Torah verses, and I imagine that is why there are different denominations of Judaism.

Whenever humans are involved there is room for error because humans are not inerrant. Moreover, no two humans are going to interpret the same scripture the same way. Even Baha'is interpret some of Baha'u'llah's Writings differently, according to how they understand them. We all have different backgrounds and we all have a bias. That does not mean either interpretation is necessarily incorrect, but it is possible one of them is incorrect. That is why in the Baha'i Faith we have appointed interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings, to clarify meanings. Baha'u'llah appointed them so He gave them that authority through the power of the Covenant.

 

[Marcion]

That is why in the Baha'i Faith we have appointed interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings, to clarify meanings.

If it was only a matter of interpreting scriptures better the problem would be easier to solve, but the problem lies one level higher with the unreliability of the authors of the scriptures and even the unreliability of the preceptors themselves!

 

[Tumah]

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
​

To me those verses mean that you can understand enough of the word in order to obey it. It makes sense that God would make clear what was really important for you to understand, so God made the Laws clear because otherwise God could not have expected you to obey them, but that does not mean you can understand every single verse in the Torah inerrantly, especially those verses which have very abstruse meanings or verses that could mean more than one thing. That is where the problems arise.

That is not a cogent argument, because we'd never be able to be sure that we understood enough to be following them correctly. Once you blur the lines, there's no end to it.

Look at all the disagreements between Christians over the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus God or not? Not all Christians agree.

I don't see how that's related. There books were written by multiple authors with different intents. Our books were written through prophecy from G-d.

Jews agree on the nature of God, but they are not in complete agreement about the meanings of all the Torah verses,

The disagreements between Torah verses are meant to be inclusive, not exclusive.

and I imagine that is why there are different denominations of Judaism.

No, that has nothing to do with it. The different denominations are a result of the Jewish Emancipation and how far different groups of Jews were willing to go in order to assimilate into their countries of residence.

Whenever humans are involved there is room for error because humans are not inerrant. Moreover, no two humans are going to interpret the same scripture the same way.

However, when G-d is involved, He has the ability to convey His meaning to His intended audience so as to not render the point of His prophecy void. We do not need a Book that we do not understand. There is no point for G-d to give us such a Book.

I suspect that this is a self-serving argument you're making so that you can follow up with something about how Baha'i truly understand the text.

Even Baha'is interpret some of Baha'u'llah's Writings differently, according to how they understand them. We all have different backgrounds and we all have a bias. That does not mean either interpretation is necessarily incorrect, but it is possible one of them is incorrect. That is why in the Baha'i Faith we have appointed interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings, to clarify meanings. Baha'u'llah appointed them so He gave them that authority through the power of the Covenant.

I don't care what Bahai's do internally.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it was only a matter of interpreting scriptures better the problem would be easier to solve, but the problem lies one level higher with the unreliability of the authors of the scriptures and even the unreliability of the preceptors themselves!

I do not know what you mean by unreliable. Which authors were unreliable and why?
Who were the preceptors and why were they unreliable?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian, it is my understanding that being a "good" person is only half of what God requires. It occurs to me that atheists are sometimes the best humanitarians and advocates for planet Earth. Being 'godless' does not win them any favor with the Creator however.

Actually, abandoning a religion that causes hatred and estrangement between people is meritorious in the eyes of God.

Bahá’u’lláh has said, “If religion and faith are the causes of enmity and sedition, it is far better to be nonreligious, and the absence of religion would be preferable; for we desire religion to be the cause of amity and fellowship. If enmity and hatred exist, irreligion is preferable.” Therefore, the removal of this dissension has been specialized in Bahá’u’lláh, for religion is the divine remedy for human antagonism and discord. But when we make the remedy the cause of the disease, it would be better to do without the remedy.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 228-235

That is why many atheists are more moral and work harder for the betterment of humanity.

Adrian, it is my understanding that being a "good" person is only half of what God requires. It occurs to me that atheists are sometimes the best humanitarians and advocates for planet Earth. Being 'godless' does not win them any favor with the Creator however.

Both faith and deeds are required but when religion, that should be the remedy to the problems of the world become the disease, God understands why people would want to abandon it.

When Jesus was asked what were the the greatest commandments, he only listed two..... 'loving God with our whole being...and to love our neighbor as ourselves'. What came first? We can be the best neighbors in the world, but if we don't love God, where does that leave us? And if we only love our own version of God we have defeated ourselves as well. We have to love him for who he is, not who we want to make him out to be.

Baha'is, Muslims, and Jews love God. Christianity does not have a monolopy on either truth nor love for God. Besides Jesus was responding to the question as the most important Teaching of Jewish law. Essentially His answer was quoting Deuteronomy 6:5

In Eden what did God require first and foremost? Wasn't it obedience, out of an acknowledgment of who God was and respect for what belonged to him? What was it that should have prompted that obedience? Wasn't it love for a generous Father?

The story of Adam and Eve is an allegorical story not to be taken literally.

Being sensible doesn't mean putting a convenient interpretation on Jesus' words to make things more palatable. It means seeing what Jesus said and not allowing reality to bend it out of shape so that it sits better.

There's nothing 'convenient' about the Baha'i interpretation of the words of Jesus. For Baha'is, Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ.

I see the Baha'i religion to be one that wants to be all things to all people, but sacrificing the principles of Christ and the Creator in the process.

That is not true of course. Its the type of comment that is made when people don't take the time to learn about another's religion so they come from a perspective of ignorance and prejudice.

Realistically, what story does the Bible tell with regard to those who followed God's commands and those who didn't? Was it about being good? Or was it about following God's commands to the letter, out of obedience?
Why was there a law? Why was it only given to Israel? Why did God not give these laws to everyone? Why keep Israel separate from all the nations in their worship and conduct if everyone was acceptable to him? It makes no sense.

When Christ came there were those who recognised Him and those who didn't. Christ said He would return and now I folllow the Returned Christ.

What doesn't make sense is an All-loving and powerful God choosing just one people only to guide. That is not the just and compassionate God I know. God having revealed Himself through different Educators including Muhamad, Krishna and Buddha makes more sense. Only a God that has no sense of justice would fail to guide most of humanity.

Can I ask why you think he would? What in all of Christ's teachings gives you the impression that those of any other belief system could be acceptable to his Father? All that effort to keep Israel's worship separate, was for what purpose then? All the effort to teach Gentiles to leave their former religions and become Christians was for what purpose then? That is very illogical to me.

God went to considerable efforts to teach the Jewish people not to worship the false gods and idols of the cultures of the surrounding peoples. There was nothing stopping Him from educating the peoples of India through the likes of Krishna and Buddha at the same time. That is the most logical proposition to me. Why would God not care about the peoples of India, Asia, Europe or Africa?

We as God's worshippers do not do anything that Jesus didn't tell us to do.

You fail to assist humanity during its time of need and wait needlessly for the literal fulfilment of verses in the book of revelation.

You follow the teachings of a church with a history of failed prophecies,

You set yourselves above not only other faith adherents but other Christans.

We see the conduct of Christendom, as a parallel of Judaism in the first century. Once they were God's people, but they both fell into the trap of adopting human tradition instead of just keeping their worship as God prescribed. This led to sectarianism and division. Both lost God's favour and Jesus is again leading "lost sheep" out of a pen of religious corruption and confusion.

The JWs appear to be another sect with the same problems as Christianity as a whole.

There are only two roads Adrian....all of us are on either one or the other.....it isn't one superhighway with everyone going in one direction. Only one road leads somewhere...the other is a dead end. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We are one people living on one earth. We urgently need to find better ways of laying the foundations for the enduring peace that Christ promised. Its good you teach others about the Bible but ultimately your theology does not address the needs of humanity for this day.

The call to remove ourselves from "Babylon the great" (Revelation 18:4-5) means nothing if we have no idea what we are removing ourselves from.

When you believe a distorted theology its only natural you would use this type of language (Babylon the great).

It's never been about just being "good". Unless our form of worship is acceptable to the true God, being "good" is nice, but it doesn't lead anywhere. We are distinguishable from other "Christians" in that we hold very few beliefs in common with them. We do not worship the same God even. We are no part of Christendom....just as Jesus was really no part of what the Jewish system had become. He castigated its leaders at every opportunity...so did John the Baptist. That system was incorrigible and God knew it. (Matthew 23:37-39)

It IS about being "right" because that is what Jesus taught.....he came to divide and to separate people, not to unite all religions into one big happy family. We have choices to make and sometimes those choices involve separating from unbelieving family members who want us to stop serving the true God. (Matthew 10:34-38) What does it mean to be "worthy" of Christ?

The Bible's whole scenario is about a rebel spirit who wanted to take worship away from God and siphon it off for himself. Any worship that is given by men that is rejected by Jehovah, automatically goes to his adversary by default. if you are found on the wrong side of this issue, by mistaking whose side you are supporting, then those who think they are sheep, may well find that Jesus judges them as goats. (Matthew 7:21-23)

All humans justify their beliefs....as they must, but looking at their track record, humans are lousy judges of their own thinking and behavior.....don't you see....this is what the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represented.....God's right to tell us what to do and our obligation to obey him because he knows better than we do. This is where humans fell short at the beginning and they are still falling short today. They want to worship God "their way".

Barking up the wrong tree will not get anyone anywhere. We have to be barking up the right tree.

Matthew 25:31-46 seems more relevant.

JW's have a mission and that is what Jesus commanded all his disciples to do. (Matthew 28:19-20) The message that we preach forms the basis for the judgment to come. It is the only "witness" that the nations will get. (Matthew 24:14) We are known for our preaching work.....all over the world.

It is one message of salvation, preached in all nations by those whom Jesus appointed.....the pretender has a lot of fakes all hoodwinked by his deceptions, but you won't be led out of those deceptions unless you can see who Babylon the great is and extract yourself from her clutches.

That is how I see the situation.

I believe you are sincere in your belief but its the JWs barking up the wrong tree, not everyone else.

 

[Marcion]

I do not know what you mean by unreliable. Which authors were unreliable and why?
Who were the preceptors and why were they unreliable?

Most of the authors of the New Testament, the Quran, the Bahai books, etc., etc.. Bahaullah is one example of such a preceptor, perhaps also Muhammed. They are unreliable because they have no authority about the things they say about other preceptors, so they make up things that are not really true (myth). They do it in different ways so they contradict each other. They are not liars, they are more like shamanic priests who also produce myths thinking they are "in contact with God".

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not a cogent argument, because we'd never be able to be sure that we understood enough to be following them correctly. Once you blur the lines, there's no end to it.

That is a good point.

I don't see how that's related. There books were written by multiple authors with different intents. Our books were written through prophecy from G-d.

It is a Baha'i belief that the Torah is more authentic than the New Testament.

From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh:
The Four Gospels were written...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá:
Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
The Bible

The disagreements between Torah verses are meant to be inclusive, not exclusive.

I do not know what you mean by that.

No, that has nothing to do with it. The different denominations are a result of the Jewish Emancipation and how far different groups of Jews were willing to go in order to assimilate into their countries of residence.

Okay thanks for explaining that. That makes sense. I think it is the Christians who split up into sects owing to different interpretations of the NT.

However, when G-d is involved, He has the ability to convey His meaning to His intended audience so as to not render the point of His prophecy void. We do not need a Book that we do not understand. There is no point for G-d to give us such a Book.

I suspect that this is a self-serving argument you're making so that you can follow up with something about how Baha'i truly understand the text.

I am sure you understand the Book, but I think Jews interpret the prophecies for the Messiah so as to meet their personal expectations. In other words, they think the prophecies mean what they want them to mean in certain cases because they have expectations that they want to be fulfilled, hopes and dreams.

I certainly do not maintain that Baha'is understand the Torah better than Jews do. Obviously we do not understand your scriptures as well as you do, unless a Bahai was formerly Jewish.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The answer to that question is really simple. Those of each religion have made the Messiah/Promised One in their own image. He has to fulfill their prophecies the way they interpret them so they will be the chosen people when the Messiah returns.

Also, since they do not believe the Messiah has come yet, they have to retain this image of the Messiah in their heads in order to retain their beliefs in their religion. In short, they are attached to their religion and they refuse to relinquish it. This is basic psychology.

Be fair: Is the testimony of those acceptable and worthy of attention whose deeds agree with their words, whose outward behaviour conforms with their inner life? The mind is bewildered at their deeds, and the soul marvelleth at their fortitude and bodily endurance. Or is the testimony of these faithless souls who breathe naught but the breath of selfish desire, and who lie imprisoned in the cage of their idle fancies, acceptable? Like the bats of darkness, they lift not their heads from their couch except to pursue the transient things of the world, and find no rest by night except as they labour to advance the aims of their sordid life. Immersed in their selfish schemes, they are oblivious of the divine Decree. In the day-time they strive with all their soul after worldly benefits, and in the night-season their sole occupation is to gratify their carnal desires. By what law or standard could men be justified in cleaving to the denials of such petty-minded souls, and in ignoring the faith of them that have renounced, for the sake of the good-pleasure of God, their life, and substance, their fame and renown, their reputation and honour?”

Baha’u’llah, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 220–225

 

[Trailblazer]

Most of the authors of the New Testament, the Quran, the Bahai books, etc., etc.. Bahaullah is one example of such a preceptor, perhaps also Muhammed. They are unreliable because they have no authority about the things they say about other preceptors, so they make up things that are not really true (myth). They do it in different ways so they contradict each other. They are not liars, they are more like shamanic priests who also produce myths thinking they are "in contact with God".

You are free to believe that but I do not put Muhammad and Baha'u'llah in the same category as the authors of the New Testament, since those authors were not Manifestations of God whereas Muhammad and Baha'u'llah were.

 

[Tumah]

It is a Baha'i belief that the Torah is more authentic than the New Testament.

From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh:
The Four Gospels were written...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá:
Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
The Bible

So what?

I do not know what you mean by that.

I mean that we do not believe that only one commentator is providing the correct interpretation and that all others are wrong. We call this 70 facets to the Torah. Provided that a commentary is consistent with the rest of the Torah, it's true.

I am sure you understand the Book, but I think Jews interpret the prophecies for the Messiah so as to meet their personal expectations. In other words, they think the prophecies mean what they want them to mean in certain cases because they have expectations that they want to be fulfilled, hopes and dreams.

The thing is, we don't have an additional book that we need to harmonize with the Torah. That means, we derive our expectations from the text, rather than impose our expectations onto it.

[quote[I certainly do not maintain that Baha'is understand the Torah better than Jews do. Obviously we do not understand your scriptures as well as you do,[/quote]
The arguments that I have received from all of you here, to not express this.

unless a Bahai was formerly Jewish.

I expect that you meant to say, "unless a Baha'i was formerly a learned Jew". Being Jewish does not automatically grant one unhindered understanding of a Jewish text. Understanding Jewish texts requires studying Jewish texts, not being Jewish.

 

[Marcion]

You are free to believe that but I do not put Muhammad and Baha'u'llah in the same category as the authors of the New Testament, since those authors were not Manifestations of God whereas Muhammad and Baha'u'llah were.

You believe that but I do not believe that Muhammed or Bahaullah had more factual knowledge of these matters than the authors of the New Testament had. They all make things up from inspired fantasy. Perhaps with the best of intentions but nevertheless of no use if you want to find out who those other preceptors really were. I don't think we will ever find out for sure about all of them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I mean that we do not believe that only one commentator is providing the correct interpretation and that all others are wrong. We call this 70 facets to the Torah. Provided that a commentary is consistent with the rest of the Torah, it's true.

Is this accurate? - The "Seventy Faces" of Torah

It also reminded me of a quote by Baha'u'llah - "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

Many significant events are also related to the Number 70

Daniel 9:24–27 The Seventy Weeks

24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish kthe transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an ranointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Christ also told us to look at this passage;

Matthew 24:14"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),..."

I like it that Gods Word contains many Hidden Meanings.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Understanding Jewish texts requires studying Jewish texts, not being Jewish.

I agree with this.

Regardless of issues of who is right and wrong, and frankly it doesn't really bother me, nearly 60% of the worlds population are either Christian and Muslim. Both Christians and Muslims see your prophets as their prophets. Doesn't that strike you as being a little odd? If you guys are right, then the Christians and Muslims must be at least partly right about something even though they are wrong. Maybe there's something right about their prophets too?

 

[Marcion]

No, I'm afraid that conclusion is not based on anything (a fallacy).