Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

[Tumah]

I agree with this.

Regardless of issues of who is right and wrong, and frankly it doesn't really bother me, nearly 60% of the worlds population are either Christian and Muslim. Both Christians and Muslims see your prophets as their prophets. Doesn't that strike you as being a little odd?

What exactly about this should strike me as odd? Their religions are based on my religion. It seems natural that they would accept some underlying concept otherwise they wouldn't be daughter religions, they'd be completely unrelated religions.

If you guys are right, then the Christians and Muslims must be at least partly right about something even though they are wrong. Maybe there's something right about their prophets too?

If my prophets are right and they follow my prophets, in what way does that imply that their prophets should be right as well? They are not who give my prophets authenticity, so I'm not sure how this should follow.

 

[Tumah]

Is this accurate? - The "Seventy Faces" of Torah

Except for some of the commentary they added on their own, most of it is correct.

It also reminded me of a quote by Baha'u'llah - "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

I'm thrilled.

Many significant events are also related to the Number 70

Daniel 9:24–27 The Seventy Weeks

24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish kthe transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an ranointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Yes?

Christ also told us to look at this passage;

Matthew 24:14"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),..."

I like it that Gods Word contains many Hidden Meanings.

Regards Tony

I don't see any reason for you to have quoted this passage. The verse in Daniel is not talking about a sign of the end. Matthew is trying to use the verse in Daniel as a basis to believe his message about the gospel being preached in the world before the end. Since we know that the Temple was destroyed (as the author of Matthew did, since it was written after the fact), we're supposed to believe that as this prophecy of Matthew's as ret-conned into Jesus' mouth came true, so would the part about the gospel being preached everywhere before the end, yada yada yada. This has nothing to do with the concept of 70 facets of Torah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This has nothing to do with the concept of 70 facets of Torah.

I see it has a lot to do with it. That is if a date of BC457 has any significance at all.

Post #44

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

What exactly about this should strike me as odd? Their religions are based on my religion. It seems natural that they would accept some underlying concept otherwise they wouldn't be daughter religions, they'd be completely unrelated religions.

You believe in G_d as I do. What's G_d up to? Is He a G_d exclusively for the Jewish people or for all humanity? I had naturally assumed for all humanity but perhaps I'm wrong. If He's a G_d mainly for the Jews and none one else it seems a little unfair doesn't it? If He's a G_d that is concerned for a wider audience these false prophets seem to be doing a reasonably good job of educating their followers about your G_d and His prophets. Also if He was mainly a G_d for the Jews, I'd be wondering about all these promises He made through your prophets that you would be protected and blessed.

If my prophets are right and they follow my prophets, in what way does that imply that their prophets should be right as well? They are not who give my prophets authenticity, so I'm not sure how this should follow.

Their prophets (Christians and Muslims)have been right about your prophets. Of all the religions and traditions going on in the world, why your prophets and no one else's? There must be literally thousands of religions to choose from. Why yours? Presuming your religion is from G_d and I believe it is, it seems incredibly good judgement. Not only that, but these religions have flourished. If they were false prophets, why has G_d allowed this to happen?

 

[Tumah]

You believe in G_d as I do. What's G_d up to? Is He a G_d exclusively for the Jewish people or for all humanity? I had naturally assumed for all humanity but perhaps I'm wrong.

He is both: we retain a special relationship with Him, while he also remains the G-d of the whole world.

If He's a G_d mainly for the Jews and none one else it seems a little unfair doesn't it?

No it isn't. Anyone can convert to Judaism provided they are willing to follow the same Laws G-d gave us.

If He's a G_d that is concerned for a wider audience these false prophets seem to be doing a reasonably good job of educating their followers about your G_d and His prophets.

They're not doing anything close to a reasonable job of educating their followers about my G-d and His prophets. We can start with the doctrine of the Trinity for Christians and continue speaking about just how much information can you learn about the Jewish prophets studying the Quran. The most that can be said is that it's a step up from their pagan pasts.

Also if He was mainly a G_d for the Jews, I'd be wondering about all these promises He made through your prophets that you would be protected and blessed.

Why would you wonder that, having seen, I'm sure, Deut. 28?

Their prophets (Christians and Muslims)have been right about your prophets. Of all the religions and traditions going on in the world, why your prophets and no one else's? There must be literally thousands of religions to choose from. Why yours? Presuming your religion is from G_d and I believe it is, it seems incredibly good judgement.

What do you mean "they were right"? The people who started their religions based their new religions on the laurels of previous religions, both of which come back to Judaism. This is not a question of error, but of history. The regions these religions started in were either Jewish or had strong Jewish and Christians influences. Had Muhammad come from India, I suspect Islam would look a bit different.

Not only that, but these religions have flourished. If they were false prophets, why has G_d allowed this to happen?

When has G-d ever stopped false prophets from existing? First Temple Era Israel was rife with them. If you spend any time studying Jeremiah, it was epidemic. Everybody and their mother were following false prophets. So I don't really see how that should be a question.
If you want to know, from a theological stand point, how do we understand G-d's desire to spread Christianity and Islam, that's a different question. Christianity and Islam serve the purpose of introducing the concepts monotheism and the Torah to the world, so that when our Messiah comes, these ideas won't be alien and unrelatable. It's a lot easier to understand where Judaism is coming from - despite the differences- having become familiar with Christianity, than it is having only known about the Greek pantheon. This is very convenient for us, because it means that during our exile, we don't have to go around spreading these concepts and instead we can focus of following and perpetuating G-d's Law.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christianity and Islam serve the purpose of introducing the concepts monotheism and the Torah to the world, so that when our Messiah comes, these ideas won't be alien and unrelatable. It's a lot easier to understand where Judaism is coming from - despite the differences

In my oponion It worked.

Regards Tony

 

[Rival]

Is He a G_d exclusively for the Jewish people or for all humanity? I had naturally assumed for all humanity but perhaps I'm wrong. If He's a G_d mainly for the Jews and none one else it seems a little unfair doesn't it?

... I give up.

How often have we interacted? Lol.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

With this logic, you've totally nullified the benefit of instituting any prophets after Moses. Why should anyone have taken into account anything they said? Maybe they just didn't understand the message because G-d spoke to them in riddles. When the prophets were chastising the nation for distancing themselves from G-d - that was all a misinterpretation. They didn't get what G-d was really trying to tell them, because G-d spoke to them in riddles. Therefore, He should never have punished the nation, because no one had any reason to trust any message the prophet was giving was in fact the true explanation of the riddle. That would be unfair.


You mean Daniel. The whole Jewish Bible is not one book, it's many Books. Daniel is the one that was sealed - specifically the part of his message that would impinge on our hope for the Messiah.

I quoted what the Book said. According to those statements, there are two kinds of verses. Clear verses, such as the 10 commandments of Moses. As He said, God spoke to Moses clearly. The 10 commandments are clear. They do not require interpretations. When it say Do not Steal, it means what the word means. But to other Prophets God spoke in riddles with unclear words. The Book gives examples of this. For example the dream of goat, dragons or crowns. No one knows what these symbols mean. Then the angel tells the prophet that these represent kingdoms.
Another example is, the dream of 7 fat and thin cows. No one knew what they mean, until they asked Joseph. He knew it means 7 years of prosperity follows sever years of difficulty.
These stories tells us that certain stories and specially the Prophecies are described using an unclear language. No one knows their interpretations except God and those who are truly have received knowledge from God.
Therefore the Prophecies regarding future events, such as the Messiah, according to the Book must have been written in an unclear language and riddles. No one knows its interpretations unless a true prophet receives its knowledge of interpretations.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We might have to consider that God gives His Message at a time that man least wants to hear it, at a time when the majority have turned away from what God has advised us to do, albeit many still do think that are acting in a Godly way.

It can't really be said that the bible is there when people don't want to hear it, because they're getting a lot of their violent hatred FROM the bible. The more murderous authors are right up their alley.

It appears God wants us to maintain our free will, a free will that allows our heart to choose between what is good and all levels of what is not good.

But we're also left on our own to consider what is good and evil, because it can't be accurately established with scriptures.

Referring to these Tablets addressed to the sovereigns of the earth, and which ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has acclaimed as a “miracle,” Bahá’u’lláh has written: “Each one of them hath been designated by a special name. The first hath been named ‘The Rumbling,’ the second, ‘The Blow,’ the third, ‘The Inevitable,’ the fourth, ‘The Plain,’ the fifth, ‘The Catastrophe,’ and the others, ‘The Stunning Trumpet Blast,’ ‘The Near Event,’ ‘The Great Terror,’ ‘The Trumpet,’ ‘The Bugle,’ and their like, so that all the peoples of the earth may know, of a certainty, and may witness, with outward and inner eyes, that He Who is the Lord of Names hath prevailed, and will continue to prevail, under all conditions, over all men

I've had a rough work week and I'm tired. Explain how this actually says anything of any enlightened importance.

The whole earth is now in a state of pregnancy.

I consider it in the throes of angsty adolescence. You know some stuff that a mature adult would, but your hormones and inexperience muck it all up.

The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits

If he's expecting shouting some random names will bring a good yield, we're in for a long wait.

Kelly, it is up to each of us as an individual to make the change in our own hearts.

Which makes messengers largely irrelevant.

So 2. we know that Jesus commissioned the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom, to his followers, and we know that it was something that would be done throughout the world - to people of all nations, according to Matthew 24:14, and it would continue to the end, according to Matthew 28:19, 20.

Given that Jesus didn't write that, we know nothing. The apostles are also characterized heavily as people who don't understand Jesus and are interested in their own glory (who shall sit next to Jesus in heaven). Their teacher was dead and they wanted an extension on his 15 minutes in between times they want to avoid getting killed because we're supposed to die for our bel ... wait....

t is evident that the prophecy in Daniel, which Jesus referred to was fulfilled in 70 C.E., when the holy place - the holy city Jerusalem was destroyed, by the Roman armies surrounded them with stakes.

Jerusalem is a lot like the X-Mansion. It's blown up every few issues.

This break in the attack would have allowed persons to heed Jesus' warning to flee to the mountains, which they would have done.

Because we are to die for our bel ... wait ....

Matthew 17:10-13 However, the disciples put the question to him: “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 In reply he said: “Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things. 12 However, I say to you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did whatever they wanted with him. In this way also, the Son of man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist.

So, then Jesus is admitting John the Baptist couldn't be Elijah because Elijah didn't restore all things?

Elijah came and fulfilled his assignment, paving the way to the one Moses spoke of. (Deuteronomy 18:15) . . .Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him.

Isn't Moses speaking of Joshua, his actual successor?

The Bible we all agree is the original, and nothing replaces it, but Satan the Devil, the crafty one, is out to get us, and Christians don't have to question his success.

Agreeing and having accurate assessments of reality are two different things.

You believe in G_d as I do. What's G_d up to? Is He a G_d exclusively for the Jewish people or for all humanity? I had naturally assumed for all humanity but perhaps I'm wrong. If He's a G_d mainly for the Jews and none one else it seems a little unfair doesn't it?

Not really. The bible retains polytheistic histories, such as when El parcels out humanity and Yahweh gets Hebrews (the Others obviously get the others). In pre-monotheistic Judaism, Yahweh would be more like a district manager, not Creator of All Things for All Time. Even His Daddy El could only barely claim that, as He couldn't have created the world because like Cronus, He was born of Earth and Sky. They were His Parents. It wouldn't be unfair for God to have just one people because we see that Others took care of everyone else.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

They're not doing anything close to a reasonable job of educating their followers about my G-d and His prophets. We can start with the doctrine of the Trinity for Christians and continue speaking about just how much information can you learn about the Jewish prophets studying the Quran. The most that can be said is that it's a step up from their pagan pasts.

If we go by the statements of Jesus, we cannot insist Jesus meant God is literally His Father:

Jesus said:
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."
John 16:25

What I find worthy to note here is that, although Gospels are written more than a thousands years after Jewish Scriptures, it still fundamentally saying same concept: that, it is not like Prophet always speak literally, but They also speak Figuratively, and in this instance Jesus is making it clear that He was speaking about the Father Figuratively. In another words, He did not mean His words to be taken literally. The idea of Trinity is due to literal understanding of the word of Jesus regarding the Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe that but I do not believe that Muhammed or Bahaullah had more factual knowledge of these matters than the authors of the New Testament had. They all make things up from inspired fantasy. Perhaps with the best of intentions but nevertheless of no use if you want to find out who those other preceptors really were. I don't think we will ever find out for sure about all of them.

We all have our different beliefs to which we are entitled since we all have free will...
I think the believers who believed in the Manifestations of God will find out after they die if their beliefs were true.
I cannot say what the naysayers and nonbelievers will find out. The afterlife is a mystery.

 

[Trailblazer]

I expect that you meant to say, "unless a Baha'i was formerly a learned Jew". Being Jewish does not automatically grant one unhindered understanding of a Jewish text. Understanding Jewish texts requires studying Jewish texts, not being Jewish.

Yes, that is what I meant, that they had studied the Jewish texts.

 

[Tumah]

I quoted what the Book said. According to those statements, there are two kinds of verses. Clear verses, such as the 10 commandments of Moses. As He said, God spoke to Moses clearly. The 10 commandments are clear. They do not require interpretations. When it say Do not Steal, it means what the word means. But to other Prophets God spoke in riddles with unclear words. The Book gives examples of this. For example the dream of goat, dragons or crowns. No one knows what these symbols mean. Then the angel tells the prophet that these represent kingdoms.
Another example is, the dream of 7 fat and thin cows. No one knew what they mean, until they asked Joseph. He knew it means 7 years of prosperity follows sever years of difficulty.
These stories tells us that certain stories and specially the Prophecies are described using an unclear language. No one knows their interpretations except God and those who are truly have received knowledge from God.
Therefore the Prophecies regarding future events, such as the Messiah, according to the Book must have been written in an unclear language and riddles. No one knows its interpretations unless a true prophet receives its knowledge of interpretations.

You did quote what the Book says, but then you went on to explain it in a way that it doesn't say. The Book says that G-d speaks to Moses clearly and to prophets He speaks in riddles. It doesn't say that there are clear verses and unclear verses. It doesn't say that the prophet speaks to us in riddles, it says G-d speaks to Moses clearly and not in riddles (and we infer, that G-d speaks to other prophets in riddles and not clearly).
That means we rely on the prophet to understand the meaning of his riddle-vision and accurately convey it's meaning and this is unlike Moses who did not need to interpret his prophecy as it was explained directly to him. This is not the same as saying that we receive the riddles.

 

[Tumah]

If we go by the statements of Jesus, we cannot insist Jesus meant God is literally His Father:

Jesus said:
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."
John 16:25

What I find worthy to note here is that, although Gospels are written more than a thousands years after Jewish Scriptures, it still fundamentally saying same concept: that, it is not like Prophet always speak literally, but They also speak Figuratively, and in this instance Jesus is making it clear that He was speaking about the Father Figuratively. In another words, He did not mean His words to be taken literally. The idea of Trinity is due to literal understanding of the word of Jesus regarding the Father.

Whether that is true or not, it is wholly unrelated to my point.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You did quote what the Book says, but then you went on to explain it in a way that it doesn't say. The Book says that G-d speaks to Moses clearly and to prophets He speaks in riddles. It doesn't say that there are clear verses and unclear verses. It doesn't say that the prophet speaks to us in riddles, it says G-d speaks to Moses clearly and not in riddles (and we infer, that G-d speaks to other prophets in riddles and not clearly).
That means we rely on the prophet to understand the meaning of his riddle-vision and accurately convey it's meaning and this is unlike Moses who did not need to interpret his prophecy as it was explained directly to him. This is not the same as saying that we receive the riddles.

Many of the parts of the Books are conversations between God and other Prophets, as well as dreams and visions. Can we conclude that, therefore based on those statements previously quoted, those conversations and dreams and visions are in riddles? Riddles in the quote appear to denote unclear. I am referring to those as unclear verses. We do not have to use the term 'verse' though.

 

[Tumah]

Many of the parts of the Books are conversations between God and other Prophets, as well as dreams and visions. Can we conclude that, therefore based on those statements previously quoted, those conversations and dreams and visions are in riddles? Riddles in the quote appear to denote unclear. I am referring to those as unclear verses. We do not have to use the term 'verse' though.

The thing is, that is not what the passage you quoted in Num. 12 actually says. It doesn't say that G-d sometimes speaks to prophets clearly and sometimes speaks to prophets in riddles. It said that G-d speaks to Moses clearly implying that He speaks to other prophets in riddles. There is nothing in that passage to indicate that sometimes G-d speaks to prophets clearly and sometimes not. The only difference that passage outlined was Moses vs. all other prophets.
That means that the other prophets - with the exception of Daniel on certain occasions - received their visions as "riddles" and interpreted them on the spot before passing on the message. Every "So saith the L-rd..." was actually a message delivered as a "riddle" that the prophet translated into a clear statement or vision. Not only that, but we have to say that their interpretations of their visions was authorized by G-d, or else there would never be a reason to ever trust anything a prophet said and that would nullify the entire prophetic establishment. So any verses that are unclear, are unclear to you because you are either not as studious as you think you are, or you lack information, not because they're riddles.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The thing is, that is not what the passage you quoted in Num. 12 actually says. It doesn't say that G-d sometimes speaks to prophets clearly and sometimes speaks to prophets in riddles. It said that G-d speaks to Moses clearly implying that He speaks to other prophets in riddles. There is nothing in that passage to indicate that sometimes G-d speaks to prophets clearly and sometimes not. The only difference that passage outlined was Moses vs. all other prophets.

.

I agree with this.

.

That means that the other prophets - with the exception of Daniel on certain occasions - received their visions as "riddles" and interpreted them on the spot before passing on the message. Every "So saith the L-rd..." was actually a message delivered as a "riddle" that the prophet translated into a clear statement or vision. Not only that, but we have to say that their interpretations of their visions was authorized by G-d, or else there would never be a reason to ever trust anything a prophet said and that would nullify the entire prophetic establishment. So any verses that are unclear, are unclear to you because you are either not as studious as you think you are, or you lack information, not because they're riddles.

Now, this part is what you say is what i cannot understand:

'That means that the other prophets - with the exception of Daniel on certain occasions - received their visions as "riddles" and interpreted them on the spot before passing on the message.'

No where in the scriptures, as far as I know, it says that everytime the prophets received their visions as riddles, they interpreted them on the spot. I will be happy if you can quote this from Bible for me.
@adrian009 may know from the Bible, what was the reason that God spoke to other prophets in riddles. There must have been a reason. I think, the reason is, the words must remain closed until the time of End, as in the vision of Daniel can be seen. The interpretations of vision must kept closed and sealed. This same is also repeated from Isaiah.

 

[1213]

What are the Good Reasons to be a Christian?

My reason is that I know Jesus and God and I know they are good. They have perfect message, truth and knowledge, also about the future. God’s wisdom and knowledge is superior in my opinion. And Jesus is great king that I want to follow.

Wikipedia tells about Bahai faith:

“…There is a similar emphasis on the unity of all people, openly rejecting notions of racism and nationalism. At the heart of Bahá'í teachings is the goal of a unified world order that ensures the prosperity of all nations, races, creeds, and classes…”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith

I think that one world order is bad idea. First time it was attempted in Babel. And what Wikipedia says in that is also contradictory, you can’t reject nationalism and at the same time ensure prosperity of nations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My reason is that I know Jesus and God and I know they are good. They have perfect message, truth and knowledge, also about the future. God’s wisdom and knowledge is superior in my opinion. And Jesus is great king that I want to follow.

They are worth motives.

We can also Say that Gods Wisdom is far superior than that of man.

We can also say it is Jesus the Christ that has showed us the way to that knowledge and taught us of the future, a future we are now part of.

As a Baha'i I accept all that Jesus the Christ has taught, as given in the Bible.

Peace be with you always, regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think that one world order is bad idea. First time it was attempted in Babel. And what Wikipedia says in that is also contradictory, you can’t reject nationalism and at the same time ensure prosperity of nations.

If we look at this Biblical Prophecy;

Isaiah 2:2-4

"Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war..."

If we consider this passage, it does say that mankind will accept our One God and live in peace. Stands to reason that it will be a Unity of purpose that allows this to happen.

"The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens".

Regards Tony