Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

[TransmutingSoul]

That is good point and good scripture. However, it is not against nations. We can have many nations that all hear God and follow Him. That is why I think it is not good to be against nations. We can be against wrong actions, like murders and lies, but nations are ok.

Sorry I might have given a wrong impression, or you may have read into the reply something that was not said.

Nations will survive and prosper in the future. Pride in ones country and culture is great as long as it does not lead to an unbridled Nationalism that looks after all in one country without the welfare of the world at heart.

There will be 'Universal League of Nations';

Another proposal frequently and powerfully advocated by Bahá’u’lláh was that a Universal League of Nations should be formed for the maintenance of international peace. In a letter to Queen Victoria, written while He was still a prisoner in the barracks of ‘Akká, 1 He said:—

"O Rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. …Be united, O Kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your people find rest. … Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice."

"In 1875, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá gave a forecast of the establishment of a Universal League of Nations, which is especially interesting at the present time in view of the strenuous attempts now being made to establish such a league. He wrote:—
True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns—the shining exemplars of devotion and determination—shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise, with firm resolve and clear vision, to establish the Cause of Universal Peace. They must make the Cause of Peace the object of general consultation, and seek by every means in their power to establish a Union of the nations of the world. They must conclude a binding treaty and establish a covenant, the provisions of which shall be sound, inviolable and definite. They must proclaim it to all the world and obtain for it the sanction of all the human race. This supreme and noble undertaking—the real source of the peace and well-being of all the world—should be regarded as sacred by all that dwell on earth. All the forces of humanity must be mobilized to ensure the stability and permanence of this Most Great Covenant. In this all-embracing Pact the limits and frontiers of each and every nation should be clearly fixed, the principles underlying the relations of governments towards one another definitely laid down, and all international agreements and obligations ascertained. In like manner, the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure."—The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 64–65.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If I claimed to be one, would you follow me? If not, why not?

Firstly you would have to have been given a Message from God. What one must consider is that they did not ask to get that Message, they were chosen.

If you did make a claim, then the Bible is a good place to start to determine who is a True Prophet. You would have to be the first to live your Message, thus is you teach to give all to the poor, then that is what you would have done before even teaching it. If you teach to turn the other cheek, then you would already be living that teaching and would give your life for that teaching. etc etc

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

Jesus said, i will come with a new name, the new name of my Father. I was referring to this, not Elijah. But, the first time Elijah was promised to come by Jewish prophets, He came as John, though the Jewish prophets did not say, Elijah comes as a new person. So, the second time Jesus says, Elijah comes, we can easily understand He means again a new Prophet, because this is how Jesus explains return of Elijah.

InvestigateTruth you haven't shown me where Jesus said Elijah would return with a new name.
Now you say, "Jesus said, i will come with a new name,"
What does a man have to do to get a scripture from Bahais, rather than interpretation?
Did not Bahais say that it's the interpretation of scriptures that is corrupt, rather than scripture itself?

I'll try this approach then. Please, can you show me in scripture, where Jesus said, "i will come with a new name, the new name of my Father."
Also, what does Jesus' coming have to do with a new prophet?
Is that not another interpretation according to Bab, rather than the Bible?

One of the fundamental teachings of Gospel is, the prophecies came from God, not from Man, therefore their interpretations also must come from God, not from human. That is, personal interpretations are not the approved interpretations from biblical view.
I suppose the reason you are quoting these verses is to show Jesus said He returns. I agree. When we read the statements of Jesus, in some of them, He said, He comes again. Yet, in some of them, He is saying, He will no longer be with anyone on earth. Both of these statements are true, and there is no contradictions between them. When Jesus is saying He comes again, He is referring to His spiritual return, just as John was the spiritual return of Elijah. When Jesus is saying, He will no longer be with anyone on earth on the promised day, He means, His individual and physical being, just as John denied to be Elijah physically.

That's Bahai's interpretation, which is probably from the Bab
However, John the Baptist arrival on earth was with Elijah's spirit. This is what one of God's angels said.
Luke 1:14-17
14 You will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of Jehovah. But he must drink no wine or any alcoholic drink at all, and he will be filled with holy spirit even from before birth, 16 and he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to Jehovah their God. 17 Also, he will go ahead of him with Elijah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, in order to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.”

So John was not physically Elijah. He was identified as a prophet of God, sent to fulfill the things in preparation of the Messiah, who proved to be Jesus.
Jesus - the promised Messiah, was sent to fulfill all things, both on heaven, and earth.
He said nothing about a new Elijah that would come, so those who speak of a new Elijah that would come, bid not get it from Jesus, nor the scriptures. They got it from a self proclaimed prophet who claimed to be the Elijah that was to come.

Let's look at it in detail.
You acknowledge that when yo say that Elijah shall come at the end times, you are not referring to Elijah's coming as prophesied in Malachi, or by the angel Gabriel, but you are referring to... note - how you interpret Jesus mention of his coming.
So in effect, what you are doing, is exactly what is said in the article I posted.

Báb - Wikipedia
The Báb was a merchant from Shiraz in Qajar Iran who in 1844, at the age of twenty-four, claimed to be a messenger of God. He took on the title of the Báb (/bɑːb/; Arabic: باب‎), meaning "Gate" or "Door", a reference associated with the promised Twelver Mahdi or al-Qá'im. He faced opposition from the Persian government, which eventually executed him and thousands of his followers, who were known as Bábís.
The Báb composed numerous letters and books in which he stated his claims and defined his teachings. He introduced the idea of He whom God shall make manifest, a messianic figure who would bring a greater message than his own.
To Bahá'ís, the Báb fills a similar role as Elijah or John the Baptist; a predecessor or forerunner who paved the way for their own religion. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, was a follower of the Báb and claimed in 1863 to be the fulfillment of the Báb's prophecy, 13 years after the former's death.

Isn't it clear then what is happening here?
A self proclaimed prophet came along, and wrote letters.
In those letters, he claims that God will reveal a new Messiah, that would surpass him.
Bahaullah arrived, and proclaimed himself that Messiah Bab spoke of.
The Bahai faith is formed, where those who follow the writings of both Bab and Bahaullah, seek to mesh the Bible with their teachings.
Since the follow the the Bahai teachings, the try to interpret the Bible to fit their teachings.

Hence, I ask the question again. Does this not sound like a fabricated copy - an imitation - created by God's enemy, to hide the truth,?

Since there is no scripture in the Bible that speaks of another prophet and Messiah to come, Bahais can only try to create these by interpreting scriptures to suit.
Matthew 11:
13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John;
14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is ‘Elijah who is to come.

Matthew 24
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.
25 Look! I have forewarned you.
26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
[Don't believe them because, - please pay close attention - here is why...]
27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Hebrews 1
1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Wow! How hard can this be for anyone who believes the Bible, to grasp.
Jesus' presence (some translations use coming [footnote*]), would be invisible, but accompanied by signs - that would be clearly visible to all. What are those signs?
Matthew 24:3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Starting with the warning about the false Messiahs, Jesus goes on to give the signs, and repeats his warning, but he make it clear that no Messiah is to be expected, but rather that he would be with his followers until the end, when he would come in kingdom power to judge - scriptures mentioned earlier.
Matthew 24, 25; 28:19, 20

*
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can dealwith a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

What more can I say.... I think it is clear, the Bahai faith is one of those imitations I mentioned in my illustration, like those trees planted in order to hide the original tree in Deeje's illustration.
The Devil whom from what I was told earlier by a Bahai is not seen as the Bible identifies him - a wicked crafty angel bent on duping the entire inhabited world, has used the said religion, to try to hide him, and try to make the truth look like a lie.
The apostle Paul while referring to those in his time, said this...
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

This imitation is designed to make the original appear to be an imitation.
That's clever. Satan is one clever entity. LOL
Too bad he and his ministers wont last.
What am I saying, Too bad?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

InvestigateTruth you haven't shown me where Jesus said Elijah would return with a new name.

Matthew 17:11 "Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things."

This passage is talking about the End times, the Name will not be Elijah and it will not be John, it was the Bab (Gate) to which this passage foretells;

Ezekiel 43:4 "And the 'glory of the LORD' (Baha'u'llah) came into the house by the way of the 'gate' (Bab) whose prospect is toward the 'east'.(Persia)

Now you say, "Jesus said, i will come with a new name,"

Revelation 2:17'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Revelation 3:12 "The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name."

Isaiah 62:2"The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate."

Isaiah 65:15"You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, And the Lord GOD will slay you But My servants will be called by another name"

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah arrived, and proclaimed himself that Messiah Bab spoke of.
The Bahai faith is formed, where those who follow the writings of both Bab and Bahaullah, seek to mesh the Bible with their teachings.
Since the follow the the Bahai teachings, the try to interpret the Bible to fit their teachings.

It then can be said;

"Christ arrived, and proclaimed himself that Messiah John spoke of.
The Christain faith is formed, where those who follow the writings of both John and Jesus, seek to mesh the Torah with their teachings.
Since they follow the the Christian teachings, they try to interpret the Torah to fit their teachings."

We seem to have the same rejections returning as well as Elijah and Christ, this is an adequate warning to those that ponder the spiritual ramifications of the return.

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

Matthew 17:11 "Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things."

This passage is talking about the End times, the Name will not be Elijah and it will not be John, it was the Bab (Gate) to which this passage foretells;

Ezekiel 43:4 "And the 'glory of the LORD' (Baha'u'llah) came into the house by the way of the 'gate' (Bab) whose prospect is toward the 'east'.(Persia)


Revelation 2:17'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Revelation 3:12 "The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name."

Isaiah 62:2"The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate."

Isaiah 65:15"You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, And the Lord GOD will slay you But My servants will be called by another name"

Regards Tony

See here.

It then can be said;

"Christ arrived, and proclaimed himself that Messiah John spoke of.
The Christain faith is formed, where those who follow the writings of both John and Jesus, seek to mesh the Torah with their teachings.
Since they follow the the Christian teachings, they try to interpret the Torah to fit their teachings."

We seem to have the same rejections returning as well as Elijah and Christ, this is an adequate warning to those that ponder the spiritual ramifications of the return.

Regards Tony

Exactly my point. This imitation is designed to make the original appear to be an imitation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since there is no scripture in the Bible that speaks of another prophet and Messiah to come, Bahais can only try to create these by interpreting scriptures to suit.

Since there is no scripture in the Bible that speaks of the same Jesus returning, Christians can only try to create these by interpreting scriptures to suit.

The entire Old Testament is full of prophecies that refer to a Messiah. Some of these prophecies refer to Jesus but most of them do not refer to Jesus because Jesus did not fulfill those prophecies. For one example of many:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder or that it would be His judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 but Jesus promised fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

InvestigateTruth you haven't shown me where Jesus said Elijah would return with a new name.
Now you say, "Jesus said, i will come with a new name,"
What does a man have to do to get a scripture from Bahais, rather than interpretation?
Did not Bahais say that it's the interpretation of scriptures that is corrupt, rather than scripture itself?

I'll try this approach then. Please, can you show me in scripture, where Jesus said, "i will come with a new name, the new name of my Father."
Also, what does Jesus' coming have to do with a new prophet?
Is that not another interpretation according to Bab, rather than the Bible?


That's Bahai's interpretation, which is probably from the Bab
However, John the Baptist arrival on earth was with Elijah's spirit. This is what one of God's angels said.
Luke 1:14-17
14 You will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of Jehovah. But he must drink no wine or any alcoholic drink at all, and he will be filled with holy spirit even from before birth, 16 and he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to Jehovah their God. 17 Also, he will go ahead of him with Elijah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, in order to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.”

So John was not physically Elijah. He was identified as a prophet of God, sent to fulfill the things in preparation of the Messiah, who proved to be Jesus.
Jesus - the promised Messiah, was sent to fulfill all things, both on heaven, and earth.
He said nothing about a new Elijah that would come, so those who speak of a new Elijah that would come, bid not get it from Jesus, nor the scriptures. They got it from a self proclaimed prophet who claimed to be the Elijah that was to come.

Let's look at it in detail.
You acknowledge that when yo say that Elijah shall come at the end times, you are not referring to Elijah's coming as prophesied in Malachi, or by the angel Gabriel, but you are referring to... note - how you interpret Jesus mention of his coming.
So in effect, what you are doing, is exactly what is said in the article I posted.

Báb - Wikipedia
The Báb was a merchant from Shiraz in Qajar Iran who in 1844, at the age of twenty-four, claimed to be a messenger of God. He took on the title of the Báb (/bɑːb/; Arabic: باب‎), meaning "Gate" or "Door", a reference associated with the promised Twelver Mahdi or al-Qá'im. He faced opposition from the Persian government, which eventually executed him and thousands of his followers, who were known as Bábís.
The Báb composed numerous letters and books in which he stated his claims and defined his teachings. He introduced the idea of He whom God shall make manifest, a messianic figure who would bring a greater message than his own.
To Bahá'ís, the Báb fills a similar role as Elijah or John the Baptist; a predecessor or forerunner who paved the way for their own religion. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, was a follower of the Báb and claimed in 1863 to be the fulfillment of the Báb's prophecy, 13 years after the former's death.

Isn't it clear then what is happening here?
A self proclaimed prophet came along, and wrote letters.
In those letters, he claims that God will reveal a new Messiah, that would surpass him.
Bahaullah arrived, and proclaimed himself that Messiah Bab spoke of.
The Bahai faith is formed, where those who follow the writings of both Bab and Bahaullah, seek to mesh the Bible with their teachings.
Since the follow the the Bahai teachings, the try to interpret the Bible to fit their teachings.

Hence, I ask the question again. Does this not sound like a fabricated copy - an imitation - created by God's enemy, to hide the truth,?

Since there is no scripture in the Bible that speaks of another prophet and Messiah to come, Bahais can only try to create these by interpreting scriptures to suit.
Matthew 11:
13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John;
14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is ‘Elijah who is to come.

Matthew 24
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.
25 Look! I have forewarned you.
26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
[Don't believe them because, - please pay close attention - here is why...]
27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Hebrews 1
1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Wow! How hard can this be for anyone who believes the Bible, to grasp.
Jesus' presence (some translations use coming [footnote*]), would be invisible, but accompanied by signs - that would be clearly visible to all. What are those signs?
Matthew 24:3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Starting with the warning about the false Messiahs, Jesus goes on to give the signs, and repeats his warning, but he make it clear that no Messiah is to be expected, but rather that he would be with his followers until the end, when he would come in kingdom power to judge - scriptures mentioned earlier.
Matthew 24, 25; 28:19, 20

*
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can dealwith a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

What more can I say.... I think it is clear, the Bahai faith is one of those imitations I mentioned in my illustration, like those trees planted in order to hide the original tree in Deeje's illustration.
The Devil whom from what I was told earlier by a Bahai is not seen as the Bible identifies him - a wicked crafty angel bent on duping the entire inhabited world, has used the said religion, to try to hide him, and try to make the truth look like a lie.
The apostle Paul while referring to those in his time, said this...
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

This imitation is designed to make the original appear to be an imitation.
That's clever. Satan is one clever entity. LOL
Too bad he and his ministers wont last.
What am I saying, Too bad?

I think some of the things you are saying is outside of this thread topic.
But discussion with you, gives an answer to the question in the OP.
Therefore one of the reasons that previous people disagree with a new Revelation, is their saying that the person claiming new Revelation is reinterpreting older scriptures. I see this same reason from Jews with regards to rejecting Jesus as their messiah, saying that Christians have been reinterpreting the Jewish bible to fit Jesus as the Messiah.
The interpretations that Bahai Faith has is new to the mainstream Christian interpretations regarding return of Christ, but in my view, this is only because certain parts of the Bible were not interpreted by Jesus and his apostles; due to the wisdom of God had remained for the Promised One to reveal its interpretations, and our witness from the Bible are the verses which states the Book is sealed till time of the end.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

See here.

Exactly my point. This imitation is designed to make the original appear to be an imitation.

Christ stands by His Message and His Word, Likewise so do the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

One would have to prove that they produced bad fruit, not that they just do no comform to current popular biblical interpretation.

I have determined their Lives their persons and their fruits are Biblical and fulfill Christs promise. You in turn have free will to make your choice, as in this reality we can throw biblical passages back and forward all day and that is fruitless.

It has also proved the intent of the OP, I would suggest.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 24:27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

Baha’u’llah clearly fulfilled this prophecy, and many more Old Testament prophecies.

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place:“But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.” (Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said:“And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’. (The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. Infact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latterdays’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.” (Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said: “When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’” (The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

1. The king from the sunrise

Bahá’u’lláh came from Persia, which is to the East of Israel, but to the west of India. His ministry from the time of its beginning until his last days on earth was forty years. The prophets of Syria and Palestine foretold the coming of the promised Messiah from the East. The prophets and seers from India and the Far East, said that he would appear in the West. Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh lies in between these two, and fulfils the requirements of each.

In the book of Enoch, it is prophesied that the Messiah of the last days shall come from the East of Israel, and that He shall come from the land now known as Persia. Enoch foretells: “And in those days the angels will assemble, and turn their heads towards the East, toward the people of Parthia and Medea, in order to excite the kings, and that a spirit of disturbance came over them, and disturbed them from off their thrones.” (Enoch 56:5). Parthia and Medea make up what is now the land of Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh. The Jewish oracles, the Sibylline books, also mention the coming of the Messiah from the East, saying:

“And then from the sunrise God shall send a king who shall give every land relief from the bane of war … nor shall he do these things by his own counsel, but in obedience to the good ordinances of the Mighty God.” (cited in The Messianic idea in Israel, p. 376).

Joseph Klausner, in The Messianic idea in Israel, writes: “The ‘king from the sunrise’ is, without any doubt, the King-Messiah.”

The prophet Ezekiel also foretold that the Messiah would come to the Holy Land, Israel, from the East. He even gave the title by which He would be known in that day: The Glory of God [or the Glory of the Lord]. Ezekiel recorded his vision of the last days, saying: “And behold, the Glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east…” (Ezekiel 43:2).

In another place, Ezekiel says:“And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”(Ezekiel 43:4).

I had already learned that the name Bahá’u’lláh was Persian, and when translated into English means, The Glory of God or The Glory of the Lord. His herald was called the Báb. This is also Persian, and translated into English means, The Gate.

The Báb was the Gate by which Bahá’u’lláh, the Glory of God, entered into the hearts of men. Bahá’u’lláh had come to Israel in exile from Persia which is to the East. I was more than satisfied by my findings. I learned that Bahá’u’lláh had completed the prophesies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, and many secular prophesies as well—all of which pointed to the time and the place from which the Shepherd of the day of the ‘one fold’ would come.

I marked the first proof: Fulfilled.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 109-111

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A central theme of the Tanakh is how G_d tests us or allows us to be tested. David sought G_d’s testing, asking Him to examine his heart and mind and see that they were true to Him (Psalm 26:2, Psalm 139:23). When Abraham was tested by G_d in the matter of sacrificing Isaac, Abraham obeyed and set an example to us all to all what it means to be faithful.

In both the Tanakh and New Testaments, the words translated “test” mean “to prove by trial.” Therefore, when G_d tests us, His purpose is to prove that our faith is real. He is proving to us that our faith is real, that we are truly His servants, and that no trial will overcome our faith.

The testing or trials through the Hebrew prophets come in various ways. G_d would often admonish His people saying the were hard of hearing and had no eyes to see. The prophets were frequently misunderstood, ignored or even ridiculed. Its clear from the texts of books such as Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah reveal a message, much of which could not be interpreted literally. Clearly there are verses that no one really understands including those which are Messianic and some Baha'is must through prayer and meditation unravel the Divine Mysteries.

The account of Job is a perfect example of G_d allowing one of His saints to be tested. Job bore all his trials patiently and “did not sin by charging G_d with wrongdoing” (Job 1:22). The account of Job’s testing prefigures the extent that God may test us and His chosen people. G_d chastises Job and particularly his friends telling them to be humble and remind them they are clueless when it comes to understanding His ways.

There are many examples of the positive results of being tested. Psalms likens our testing to being refined like silver (Psalm 66:10).

Thanks @adrian009. If I understand you correctly, you mean that throughout the stories of the Jewish holy Books, God in various ways always tested the belief of people. One of the ways that God had tested people is by bringing a new covenants through prophets, or by revealing His words again and again through prophets to test belief of the people so, the true believers are distinguished from other people who only outwardly or due to imitations claimed to be believers. Therefore, one can conclude that same tests would continue from God, by speaking again through future Prophets. However had God revealed clearly that there will be future Prophets in such a year, and in such city, it would be easy for everyone to just accept, specially if the prophets were also did miracles. Therefore the Prophecies regarding future Revelations are written in riddles, so, when the time comes to test, God reveals their interpretations through a new Prophet. Is this what you are basically saying?

 

[nPeace]

Post 163 was my final post in this discussion.
What Trailblazer said here, is similar to what I see Bahai is doing as they apply Bab's and Bahaullah's writings.
I don't see the discussion going anywhere, so thanks for the discussion.
I'm glad we had it.
Peace all.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for agreeing that Bahais do interpret scripture. Therefore it is possible that their interpretation is as corrupt as those they accuse of misinterpretation. True?

Baha'is follow the Teachings of Baha'u'llah who we see as being the Return of Christ. If Baha'u'llah is who He says He is then the Baha'is are on a firm foundation.

Matthew 7:24-27

If not, then the Baha'i Faith will not endure.

So because you don't see Satan as literal, does not mean your interpretation is right.
The scriptures say plainly that Satan misleads, opposes, fights/wars, lies, deceives, accuses, murders, tempts, and disguises, or tries to hide his true identity.
The scriptures directly says he has been judged along with wicked spirit forces in the heavenly place, and that he was cast from the realm of heaven, to the earth, and that he will be imprisoned so that he is unable to mislead persons on the earth.
If that's not real, then I'm tripping... but seriously, JWs belief are based on the Bible, not some idea that has no Biblical support.

The Baha'i believe in the same Bible as the Christians. The question is therefore which interpretation is correct.

It is human nature to rebel against authority. Teenagers are notorious for it. That doesn't mean they are all demon possessed.

People lie, cheat, and deceive others all the time. Politicians are renowned for it. Is it the politicians that make choices to behave this way or does Satan make them do it?

It is human nature to be in denial, to project one's fantasies and emotions onto others. That's just who were are psychologically. We require no intervention from a mythical creature to explain the way people behave.

The Baha'i view of scripture is based on reality, not imagination. We don't feel compelled to take verses literally that clearly have other meanings.

Many Christians have rightfully abandoned the idea of a literal Satan. The Baha'is never had it to begin with.

What you interpret as the greater plan of God, is not what Daniel and the other prophets said.
Daniel 2:44, 45; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11; 65; All these tell of the stump of Jesse - the Christ - being the king of God's kingdom in heaven, bringing peace to the earth.
It describes too, how he will do it.
Genesis 22:18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.

The prophet Daniel and Isaiah clearly foretold a time of world peace based on G-d's law. This has been unfolding over the last 174 years since the Baha'i Revelation began. There is the greater and lesser plan of God. The greater plan of God is what we see unfolding as the peoples from all backgrounds, communities and nations of the world work together for the good of all. The lesser plan is the development of the worldwide Baha'i community that creates a model of unity in diversity. We have a community of 5 -10 million Baha'is worldwide.

Our fellow human beings everywhere are insensibly subjected… to… the continuous operation of simultaneous processes of “rise and of fall, of integration and of disintegration, of order and chaos.” These Shoghi Effendi identified as aspects of the Major Plan and Minor Plan of God, the two known ways in which His purpose for humankind is going forward. The Major Plan is associated with turbulence and calamity and proceeds with an apparent, random disorderliness, but is, in fact, inexorably driving humanity towards unity and maturity…

Minor Plan of God: The part of God’s Plan that is revealed by Baha’u’llah to His followers and is laid out for them in detailed instructions and successive plans by Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. In contrast to the Major Plan of God, it proceeds in a methodical, ordered way, disseminating His teachings and raising up the structure of a united world society. – The Universal House of Justice,

Hey, Humans: Do We Have a Plan?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Post 163 was my final post in this discussion.
What Trailblazer said here, is similar to what I see Bahai is doing as they apply Bab's and Bahaullah's writings.
I don't see the discussion going anywhere, so thanks for the discussion.
I'm glad we had it.
Peace all.

Yes, thank you for the chat. One point to consider with Trailblazers post, is that the Baha'i are not waiting, they have accepted a fullfillment of all Prophecy.

It can be considered all the Holy books have Prophecy of the end of ages, in one way or another. In each of these Faiths, many people, if not the majority, are still waiting for the fullfillment, thus they are still offering interpretation. Where as the Baha'i are showing fulfillment.

Peace be with you, regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Post 163 was my final post in this discussion.
What Trailblazer said here, is similar to what I see Bahai is doing as they apply Bab's and Bahaullah's writings.
I don't see the discussion going anywhere, so thanks for the discussion.
I'm glad we had it.
Peace all.

Sorry to hear that but I'm not surprised.

Abdu'l-Baha says “if two individuals dispute about religion both are wrong.”

If we want to have an interfaith discussion to learn more about each others faith, find ways to cooperate and work together, then that is best.

If we want to investigate the nature of reality together, that too is fine if we do it in the right spirit .

Starting a debate to try to prove another religion wrong usually doesn't go well. Starting this discussion by telling us we follow Satan and a false prophet at least made your intention clear.

Thanks for dropping by.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks @adrian009. If I understand you correctly, you mean that throughout the stories of the Jewish holy Books, God in various ways always tested the belief of people. One of the ways that God had tested people is by bringing a new covenants through prophets, or by revealing His words again and again through prophets to test belief of the people so, the true believers are distinguished from other people who only outwardly or due to imitations claimed to be believers. Therefore, one can conclude that same tests would continue from God, by speaking again through future Prophets. However had God revealed clearly that there will be future Prophets in such a year, and in such city, it would be easy for everyone to just accept, specially if the prophets were also did miracles. Therefore the Prophecies regarding future Revelations are written in riddles, so, when the time comes to test, God reveals their interpretations through a new Prophet. Is this what you are basically saying?

That is beautifully written. I had in mind that G-d has ordained every atom in the universe for our training, even more so the prophets of G-d. Beyond that the provisions of the Greater Covenant as you say. So in the more general sense, every day we are tested by G-d for our purification and so we can draw closer to Him. I tried to express such thoughts with reference to verses in the Tanakh. Baha'u'llah appears to have embodied the idea when He said:

O SON OF BOUNTY! Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things. Thus, ere thou didst issue from thy mother’s womb, I destined for thee two founts of gleaming milk, eyes to watch over thee, and hearts to love thee. Out of My loving-kindness, ’neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor. And My purpose in all this was that thou mightest attain My everlasting dominion and become worthy of My invisible bestowals. And yet heedless thou didst remain, and when fully grown, thou didst neglect all My bounties and occupied thyself with thine idle imaginings, in such wise that thou didst become wholly forgetful, and, turning away from the portals of the Friend didst abide within the courts of My enemy.
(The Hidden Words, Persian no. 29)

 

[Trailblazer]

It can be considered all the Holy books have Prophecy of the end of ages, in one way or another. In each of these Faiths, many people, if not the majority, are still waiting for the fullfillment, thus they are still offering interpretation. Where as the Baha'i are showing fulfillment.

Indeed, this is the case...

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah.

For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.

Members of the Baha'i Faith believe that in the middle of the last century these prophecies actually were fulfilled and that the Promised One truly did appear.

Baha'u'llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, claims to be the Promised One whose coming was explicitly foretold, not only in the Old and the New Testaments.... but also in the prophecies of the Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Islamic and other religions.

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage​

But if people are attached to the older religions, they do not want to know if Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One, even if it might be true, so looking at it seriously could be dangerous because if they discovered it was actually true, for Jews that would mean they would have to give up the Messiah they have made in their own image and for Christians it would mean they would have to give up their belief that Jesus is still alive and will return someday. It is their hearts that stand in the way of their minds, hearts that are attached to what they already believe and their hopes for the future. Baha’u’llah had something to say about hearts:

“We have forbidden men to walk after the imaginations of their hearts, that they may be enabled to recognize Him Who is the sovereign Source and Object of all knowledge, and may acknowledge whatsoever He may be pleased to reveal. Witness how they have entangled themselves with their idle fancies and vain imaginations. By My life! They are themselves the victims of what their own hearts have devised, and yet they perceive it not. Vain and profitless is the talk of their lips, and yet they understand not.” Gleanings, pp. 204-205​

 

[oldbadger]

What gave you that idea?

All that have passed on are Spirit, we all live here but in reality we are Spirit. Abdul'baha has explained the 5 levels of Spirit and how they interact. - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 143-145

This is what Christ meant when He says we must be born again, to be born into the Spirit and when this is done one overcomes the 1st death.

What Baha'u'llah did say is difficult to know what is true Inspiration from the Spiritual Worlds of God and what is of our own imaginations based in the Material World, thus we are told not to foster these abilities.

"...Some miraculous feats are presumed to be linked with the development of latent psychic faculties in man. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, the Beloved Master of the Bahá’í Faith, admits the reality of the ‘super normal’ psychic faculties, but deprecates attempts to force their premature development. "To tamper with psychic forces while in this world interferes with the condition of the soul in the world to come. These forces are real, but, normally, are not active on this plane."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá uses the example of a child in the womb to explain the idea. The child has eyes, ears, hands, feet, etc., but they are not in activity. Only once the child is born in the material world, do these organs become active. Similarly, psychic powers are not to be used in this world, and it is dangerous to cultivate them here.
When asked if a departed soul can converse with someone still on earth, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered, "A conversation can be held, but not as our conversation. There is no doubt that the forces of the higher worlds interplay with the forces of this plane. The heart of man is open to inspiration; this is spiritual communication. As in a dream one talks with a friend while the mouth is silent, so is it in the conversation of the spirit. A man may converse with the ego within him saying: ‘May I do this? Would it be advisable for me to do this work?’ Such as this is conversation with the higher self." Link to full discussion - Tempering with Psychic Forces

Regards Tony

Here is what gave me that idea....... Bahauallah didn't write all that down, it was just the words of his son.

Now, why would a person speak of spirits, spirituality and spiritualism on the one hand, and switch to the use of 'pyshic or supernatural faculties, abilities and forces' the next? Pyschic, or supernatural, is a different kind of description to 'spiritual' which is simply 'of the spirit'.

Now you either believe that spirits exist, or you don't, but if they exist then they are real, and there would be nothing 'supernatural' about them, which is maybe why spiritual healers don't call themselves psychic healers..... the two abilities are different, surely?

Abdul Baha didn't seem to grasp the difference? It's just interesting, is all....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abdul Baha didn't seem to grasp the difference? It's just interesting

Or it is us that do not grasp what is being said by Abdul'baha.

If your Father is a Manifestation of God and he calls you the 'Mystery of God' and gifts you as an example for all people to follow, then may be we could consider that His knowledge is gifted also.

Basically what was said is we have no idea what we are mucking about with, so the advice is do not muck about, live in this world and grow our spiritual limbs, which are the virtues we share with each other and when we pass on, those limbs will be useful, not potentially harmful. Good advice I would say.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Most Baha'is are not into that but I am... It makes sense to me to want to know what is in the great beyond if at all possible to access that information. I think it is possible to know more than what Baha'u'llah revealed, which is rather scanty.

Fair enough....
I had an amazing experience when I received spiritual healing on October 16th last year. I will remember the time, date, place and healer for all my days.
I'm open minded about spiritualism.

The trouble for Abrahamic religions is all about those OT laws which require seers, witches and spirituals etc to be executed........ that couldn't have helped !

But there have been little Christian Spiritualist chapels in nearly every English town ever since I can remember, and many Christians do visit these discreetly after losing friends and relatives, regardless of what their ministers and priests might say.