Disappointed in our bishop

[Muffled]

I believe Americans should be outraged by bigotry against minority groups that have been oppressed, which is an abomination against the American ethos of liberty and justice for all.

I believe we put criminals in jail. That is not liberty for them. All a church will do if it isn't apostate is put out of fellowship a practicing sinner.

 

[Koldo]

Something so bad it would cause God to reduce 3 cities to sand.

Looks like abominations no longer happen then.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

That's IYO, which I can't take seriously because it's wrong headed, imo. Universities are expected to be more open minded, and this generally includes Catholic universities, especially those that are Jesuit.

Did this Bishop ever claim that these topics could not be discussed at the University?

What he wants is for a Catholic University to not make any kind of pledge of support or allegiance to these movements and organizations.

Also - flying a flag is a firm decree of your stance on any particular issue.

If the University wishes to stay neutral - both politically and academically about these topics - thus encouraging discussion - it should not fly those flags.

You are advocating that the University close their minds by demanding that they fly those flags.

I did not say the bishop couldn't do that but whether he should do that.

Based on nothing though.

"Freedom of expression" is nothing.

It literally does not exist.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

There are good and decent students shouting down those parents who don't want their own daughters sharing sports events, toilets and dressing rooms with boys.

Dressing rooms should be private. No one of any gender should watch me undress. Haven’t you seen Carrie?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

People who insist a Catholic school employ someone who is outside the faith, or offended that faith on the grounds of being 'inclusive' wouldn't dream of offending some 'indigenous' or 'alternative' or Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu persuasion. It's our own culture we hate.

I think schools and hospitals should not be treated like church.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So it makes you wonder about those in the Gospels who loved those that persecuted them, and willingly gave their lives for what they believe

Which of them had a choice?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Polygamy might be it, or pederasty.

You haven’t read the Bible. This happened a lot. God impregnated a tween girl.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What an amazing invention - the refrigerator and the ice cream machine

That’s why the ancients invented a large dome-like building that chilled water into ice.

 

[metis]

What he wants is for a Catholic University to not make any kind of pledge of support or allegiance to these movements and organizations.

Also - flying a flag is a firm decree of your stance on any particular issue.

I fly the American flag several times a year, but that does not mean or imply that I always agree with what my country does.

Flying such a flag can mean "I support your cause", at least in general.

You are advocating that the University close their minds by demanding that they fly those flags.

That's quite a bizarre statement.

"Freedom of expression" is nothing.

So, the 1st Amendment is "nothing".

I do believe this discussion just came to an end.

 

[Sheldon]

Something so bad it would cause God to reduce 3 cities to sand.

Hypothetically one would wonder why a deity would create such a thing, but sensibly recognise that homophobic bigotry is just part of an archaic superstition, derived from ignorant patriarchal Bedouin societies, and then move on.

 

[Sheldon]

Actually, not much.
Did you know that in Jesus' day no rich man could afford ice cream? You had to be an emperor for that. Some guy had to run up the mountain and bring back the ice. This was mixed with various fruits and served to the emperor.
What an amazing invention - the refrigerator and the ice cream machine.
Like things such as inner spring matttresses, the nylon tooth brush and air conditioning - we take everything for granted.
Even the opportunities life gives us to serve our fellow man and God.

How do you feel about olives?

 

[Sheldon]

I believe the prophecy is that we win in the end.

I don't believe in prophesy, and you have failed to present a shred of objective evidence for it, so hey ho.

 

[Riders]

Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags

A standoff between a Jesuit middle school and the bishop of Worcester, Mass., where the school is located, escalated Thursday, after Bishop Robert J. McManus stripped the “Catholic” moniker from the school over its decision to continue flying flags supporting L.G.B.T. pride and Black Lives Matter.
“The flying of these flags in front of a Catholic school sends a mixed, confusing and scandalous message to the public about the Church’s stance on these important moral and social issues,” states a decree issued on June 10 and signed by Bishop McManus. The ruling was posted to the diocese’s website on Thursday.

“These flags simply state that all are welcome at Nativity and this value of inclusion is rooted in Catholic teaching.”

In January 2021, students requested that the school fly a rainbow flag to show support for the L.G.B.T. community and another to support Black Lives Matter. According to the school, the flags remained up for more than a year before the bishop requested they be removed. Shortly after that request, the flags were torn down in an act of vandalism, but the school replaced them.

At issue is what the flags are perceived to symbolize.

Bishop McManus wrote in the decree that the pride flag connoted support for same-sex marriage, which the Catholic Church opposes, and for “actively living a LGBTQ+ lifestyle.”

As for the Black Lives Matter flag, the bishop wrote that “the Catholic Church teaches that all life is sacred and the Church certainly stands unequivocally behind the phrase ‘black lives matter’ and strongly affirms that all lives matter.”

But, he continued, the movement associated with Black Lives Matter “promotes a platform that directly contradicts Catholic social teaching on the importance and role of the nuclear family and seeks to disrupt the family structure in clear opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

“Both flags are now widely understood to celebrate the human dignity of our relatives, friends and neighbors who have faced, and continue to face hate and discrimination,” Mr. McKenney wrote. “Though any symbol or flag can be co-opted by political groups or organizations, flying our flags is not an endorsement of any organization or ideology,” he said, adding that “they fly in support of marginalized people.”



“This leaves me no other option but to take canonical action,” he continued.

In addition to no longer being able to describe itself as Catholic, the school is not permitted to celebrate Mass on its premises, is barred from engaging in fundraising with diocesan organizations and must remove a previous Worcester bishop from its board of directors.

The move by Bishop McManus to strip the Nativity School of its Catholic label mirrors a similar situation that played out three years ago.

Administrators at the Jesuit-run College of the Holy Cross, which is located in Worcester and has connections to the Nativity School, responded by calling his remarks “deeply hurtful and offensive.” That prompted a reply from the bishop, who repeated his call that all people, including those who are transgender, be treated with compassion and respect. But he stood by his remarks.

“If certain members of the Holy Cross community find this to be hurtful and offensive, then perhaps the college should present clearly what Catholicism teaches regarding Christian anthropology and human sexuality,” he said in 2019.

Personally, I think this bishop is out of touch with Francis.
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags | America Magazine

So your upset because they can no longer claim to be Catholic? What does the Pop say about it?

 

[Sheldon]

No - you did - you intimated that my agreeing with this Bishop reminded you of "crowds applauding parading Nazis at the Nuremberg rallies".

Why do you believe you didn't employ that fallacy?

'

Basic literacy, reductio ad Hitlerum is an attempt to invalidate someone else's position on the basis that the same view was held by Adolf Hitler.

Which was not what I did, as you yourself just asserted above.

<CITATION>

No - it wasn't.

Yes it most certainly was.

No one has seen evolution take place in real time

"Critics of evolution often fall back on the maxim that no one has ever seen one species split into two. While that's clearly a straw man, because most speciation takes far longer than our lifespan to occur, it's also not true. We have seen species split, and we continue to see species diverging every day." <CITATION>

Yes - what you said was equally asinine.

You may want to read that back, as it's something of an own goal.

Is that why most of your posts sound like they came from a preteen girl?

That's pretty hilarious, given you just used the word like, in the middle of a sentence.

No - I'm not - like at all.

I am like, tots amazed like at how funny that like rully izz.

People usually supply supporting evidence for their arguments in debates - and they stay on topic.

What didn't I evidence? You made the assertion:

If you want to judge a Catholic Bishop by what is contained in the Bible - you cannot reference things that are not included in the Bible.

As I said, I can reference whatever I feel is apropos, that's how debate works.

Sheldon said: ↑
Though it's not exactly surprising you think beliefs can be ringfenced from criticisms outside of those beliefs,

This never happened.

Well it's right there above in red, you asserting that I can only use the bible to challenge beliefs from the bible.

No - it didn't.

Yes it did.

"Go Google it" - not much of a debate.

Straw man, here is the full quote then, to compare to your disingenuous edit:

Sheldon said: ↑
Have you not read it? Slavery (as one example) is endorsed explicitly in Exodus 21, you can Google the rest I am sure.

Why not quote all the verses from the Bible that you believe back up your claims and explain why you believe they are immoral or wrong?

Exodus 21 has a hyperlink, it is self explanatory, are you trying to say slavery isn't immoral? or have you never read Exodus 21?

Read those verses in their proper historical context - no "cookie cutter" examples.

You can't rationally claim a deity exists with omniscience omnipotence, and that is perfectly moral, then claim its endorsement of slavery is contextual.

I have never written a bible

Have you read it?

and I never claimed to be ignorant of anything.

I never claimed you had claimed this.

 

[Sheldon]

Based on nothing though.

"Freedom of expression" is nothing.

It literally does not exist.

He said, freely expressing himself.

 

[pearl]

So your upset because they can no longer claim to be Catholic? What does the Pop say about it?

They are Catholic. And are following the Popes' teaching on being an inclusive Church, following Vat II.
Francis is himself a Jesuit. The bishop is of a conservative mindset.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I fly the American flag several times a year, but that does not mean or imply that I always agree with what my country does.

True - but I assume that you chose to fly that flag at your home - correct?

You can't flag an American flag at someone else's home against their will and stated wishes.

It is a Catholic University - so the Catholic Church has authority over which flags - if any - can be flown.

Not you.

Flying such a flag can mean "I support your cause", at least in general.

Exactly my point - and the point made by the Bishop - the Catholic Church does not support the causes of the LGBT community and BLM.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that homosexual behavior is sinful and that marriage is only between a man and a woman.

The Catholic Church opposes BLM's stated mission of undermining the nuclear family.

This is why the Bishop does not want their flags flying over a Catholic University - because their causes run contrary to Catholic beliefs and teachings.

That's quite a bizarre statement.

How so?

So, the 1st Amendment is "nothing".

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution says nothing about "freedom of expression".

I believe you are referring to "freedom of speech" - which is not "freedom of expression" - they are not the same thing.

I do believe this discussion just came to an end.

Yeah - because you don't even know what you are talking about.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They are Catholic. And are following the Popes' teaching on being an inclusive Church, following Vat II.
Francis is himself a Jesuit. The bishop is of a conservative mindset.

Homosexuality is still a sin and cannot be endorsed or condoned. That is the teaching of the Church and it hasn't changed, regardless of how anyone personally feels about it. Look it up in the Catechism. The Pope hasn't changed it. He can only call on us to be more compassionate towards each other, but he cannot bless sodomy. That's just how it is. Pride itself is also a sin in Christianity, so any movement celebrating "pride" goes against what the Church teaches. The Bishop is just doing his job.

 

[Riders]

Homosexuality is still a sin and cannot be endorsed or condoned. That is the teaching of the Church and it hasn't changed, regardless of how anyone personally feels about it. Look it up in the Catechism. The Pope hasn't changed it. He can only call on us to be more compassionate towards each other, but he cannot bless sodomy. That's just how it is. Pride itself is also a sin in Christianity, so any movement celebrating "pride" goes against what the Church teaches. The Bishop is just doing his job.

That's what I thought. There are liberal Catholics but in the end the church is conservative right??

 

[PruePhillip]

How do you feel about olives?

Love 'em.
Why?
I understand for a long long time no-knew how to process them for eating. Watch the Greeks doing it - it's very simple, like most inventions usually are.