Disappointed in our bishop

[Fallen Prophet]

But this is the point I was making, and part of this why is the bishop reversing a decision made by a particular university run by some Catholic clergy? Where's the freedom of expression there? So, what if they flew the flags?

What are you on about?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags

A standoff between a Jesuit middle school and the bishop of Worcester, Mass., where the school is located, escalated Thursday, after Bishop Robert J. McManus stripped the “Catholic” moniker from the school over its decision to continue flying flags supporting L.G.B.T. pride and Black Lives Matter.
“The flying of these flags in front of a Catholic school sends a mixed, confusing and scandalous message to the public about the Church’s stance on these important moral and social issues,” states a decree issued on June 10 and signed by Bishop McManus. The ruling was posted to the diocese’s website on Thursday.

“These flags simply state that all are welcome at Nativity and this value of inclusion is rooted in Catholic teaching.”

In January 2021, students requested that the school fly a rainbow flag to show support for the L.G.B.T. community and another to support Black Lives Matter. According to the school, the flags remained up for more than a year before the bishop requested they be removed. Shortly after that request, the flags were torn down in an act of vandalism, but the school replaced them.

At issue is what the flags are perceived to symbolize.

Bishop McManus wrote in the decree that the pride flag connoted support for same-sex marriage, which the Catholic Church opposes, and for “actively living a LGBTQ+ lifestyle.”

As for the Black Lives Matter flag, the bishop wrote that “the Catholic Church teaches that all life is sacred and the Church certainly stands unequivocally behind the phrase ‘black lives matter’ and strongly affirms that all lives matter.”

But, he continued, the movement associated with Black Lives Matter “promotes a platform that directly contradicts Catholic social teaching on the importance and role of the nuclear family and seeks to disrupt the family structure in clear opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

“Both flags are now widely understood to celebrate the human dignity of our relatives, friends and neighbors who have faced, and continue to face hate and discrimination,” Mr. McKenney wrote. “Though any symbol or flag can be co-opted by political groups or organizations, flying our flags is not an endorsement of any organization or ideology,” he said, adding that “they fly in support of marginalized people.”

“This leaves me no other option but to take canonical action,” he continued.

In addition to no longer being able to describe itself as Catholic, the school is not permitted to celebrate Mass on its premises, is barred from engaging in fundraising with diocesan organizations and must remove a previous Worcester bishop from its board of directors.

The move by Bishop McManus to strip the Nativity School of its Catholic label mirrors a similar situation that played out three years ago.

Administrators at the Jesuit-run College of the Holy Cross, which is located in Worcester and has connections to the Nativity School, responded by calling his remarks “deeply hurtful and offensive.” That prompted a reply from the bishop, who repeated his call that all people, including those who are transgender, be treated with compassion and respect. But he stood by his remarks.

“If certain members of the Holy Cross community find this to be hurtful and offensive, then perhaps the college should present clearly what Catholicism teaches regarding Christian anthropology and human sexuality,” he said in 2019.

Personally, I think this bishop is out of touch with Francis.
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags | America Magazine

He's right.

 

[Sheldon]

It has been known as reductio ad hitlerum - or reductio ad absurdum - or an association fallacy.

Except that's not what I did, is it, read the fallacy again.

An irrelevant observation to make in a discussion about whether or not the actions of a Catholic Bishop violated a supposed teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It was relevant in the context of the post I was responding to.

That's like someone saying in a discussion about evolution - "Evolution is just a theory" - in an asinine attempt to derail any discussion about evolution.

No, and yes to the second part. You're using a false equivalence to pretend religious bigotry and homophobia is comparable to scientific facts like species evolution.

It's just dumb and pointless.

Well I am happy to defer to your expertise on this area.

We are all used to your comments lacking substance - no use breaking that trend now - eh?

An introspective entry from your diary?

No - it wasn't a refutation at all.

Yes, it was. See I can use hand waving as well.

Which is why I asked, "So?" - as in - "So what?"

So what?

There are a lot of things not mentioned in the Bible - that doesn't refute what is in it.

Who said it did - straw man fallacy...

If you want to judge a Catholic Bishop by what is contained in the Bible - you cannot reference things that are not included in the Bible.

Oh like buses, two straw man fallacies at once, and yes I can reference whatever I feel is apropos. that's how debate works. Though it's not exactly surprising you think beliefs can be ringfenced from criticisms outside of those beliefs, t'was ever thus.

That makes no sense.

Yes it does.

Where are these things endorsed in the Bible?

Have you not read it? Slavery (as one example) is endorsed explicitly in Exodus 21, you can Google the rest I am sure. It's your bible after all, so it's pretty shocking you're ignorant of this.

 

[Sheldon]

He's right.

He's a religious bigot. You may want to consider what that means for your claim, or maybe not, given the nature of bigotry.

 

[Wildswanderer]

He's a religious bigot. You may want to consider what that means for your claim, or maybe not, given the nature of bigotry.

He's being consistent with the belief system of the Catholic Church. That's not bigotry.

 

[Sheldon]

He's being consistent with the belief system of the Catholic Church. That's not bigotry.

Of course it is, read a dictionary.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He's being consistent with the belief system of the Catholic Church. That's not bigotry.

Because bigotry stops being bigotry when it's endorsed by a church?

 

[PruePhillip]

Pretty much any Christian denomination that's had enough political power to gruesomely execute apostates has gruesomely executed apostates.


I haven't found a Christian denomination yet - or even an individual Christian - that this isn't true for, IMO.

If you just read Matt 5,6 and 7, this pretty much sums up the requirements. Nothing about praying five times a day, facing Jerusalem and reciting the Rosary. That's the religious behavior Jesus rejected.

 

[PruePhillip]

No idea, indeed. The great majority of RC doctrines come from the bible. Yes, there are those that do not. But the great majority do.

I have no idea where this idea of going to some temple and praying some vain repitition to a priest not found in the Gospels, for a Mary Queen of Heaven which isn't in scripture.
That sort of thing. We are warned about each of these practices.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

For everyone here and elsewhere who support the bishop’s decision. No. You are wrong.

Priests and people constantly try to “interpret” this part and that part of the Christian (NT) Bible. But you’re all just blind men trying to decipher the little bits of the elephant that you can feel, without realizing there is a whole elephant in front of them.

Instead, the misguided bishop, and all of you who would count yourselves as Christian, need to step back and (in only a few words) conceptualize what exactly the Christ Jesus was trying to teach everyone, all those centuries ago.

Be nice.
Be nice to everyone, all the time, no matter what.
Be kind, and care for one another; especially the downtrodden and needy.

​

That’s it. If you misconstrued any part of the Bible to mean anything else. You are wrong, because any other interpretation goes against the teachings of Jesus and God.

 

[PruePhillip]

Do you like ice cream?

Actually, not much.
Did you know that in Jesus' day no rich man could afford ice cream? You had to be an emperor for that. Some guy had to run up the mountain and bring back the ice. This was mixed with various fruits and served to the emperor.
What an amazing invention - the refrigerator and the ice cream machine.
Like things such as inner spring matttresses, the nylon tooth brush and air conditioning - we take everything for granted.
Even the opportunities life gives us to serve our fellow man and God.

 

[Sheldon]

If you just read Matt 5,6 and 7, this pretty much sums up the requirements. Nothing about praying five times a day, facing Jerusalem and reciting the Rosary. That's the religious behavior Jesus rejected.

Yes all Christians know unequivocally what they bible is actually saying, all 45k different sects and denominations. The point I think that @9-10ths_Penguin was making, is throughout the history of Christianity there was never a shortage of Christians happy to torture and murder other Christians who disagreed with their subjective views, like the one you expressed here for example.

 

[Sheldon]

Actually, not much.
Did you know that in Jesus' day no rich man could afford ice cream? You had to be an emperor for that. Some guy had to run up the mountain and bring back the ice. This was mixed with various fruits and served to the emperor.
What an amazing invention - the refrigerator and the ice cream machine.
Like things such as inner spring matttresses, the nylon tooth brush and air conditioning - we take everything for granted.
Even the opportunities life gives us to serve our fellow man and God.

Ever been Kayaking?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you just read Matt 5,6 and 7, this pretty much sums up the requirements.

Heh... and where will we find that in the Bible?

And it was at Smyrna that the Apostle Paul first said "yeah... just read Matthew chapters 5 through 7 and you're good. The rest of the Bible is basically fluff."

- The Epistle of PruePhillip 6:12

Nothing about praying five times a day, facing Jerusalem and reciting the Rosary. That's the religious behavior Jesus rejected.

Wait... what?

Is that what you think Catholics do?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have no idea where this idea of going to some temple and praying some vain repitition to a priest not found in the Gospels, for a Mary Queen of Heaven which isn't in scripture.
That sort of thing. We are warned about each of these practices.

I attended a Catholic church for several years. There was only slightly more repetition than in my grandmother's Baptist church.

It really sounds like you're arguing against a cartoon version of Catholicism.

 

[PruePhillip]

I attended a Catholic church for several years. There was only slightly more repetition than in my grandmother's Baptist church.

It really sounds like you're arguing against a cartoon version of Catholicism.

I hope I am because I have some lovely Catholic friends, and I attend mass once a year with them.
But last week I was reading about praying the rosary. Jesus gave us that sample 'Lord's Prayer' and warned about 'vain repititions.' So here we have vain repitition upon vain repitition - industrial scale.
If any other church does it then the same goes for them. God is no respector of persons.

 

[PruePhillip]

Heh... and where will we find that in the Bible?

And it was at Smyrna that the Apostle Paul first said "yeah... just read Matthew chapters 5 through 7 and you're good. The rest of the Bible is basically fluff."

- The Epistle of PruePhillip 6:12


Wait... what?

Is that what you think Catholics do?

What catholics do? No, what religion does.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Be nice.
Be nice to everyone, all the time, no matter what.
Be kind, and care for one another; especially the downtrodden and needy.

Things Jesus never said.

He never said to be nice to everyone. Caring sometimes requires being anything but nice. Was Jesus nice to everyone? I don't think we can say tossing tables and chasing people and animals with a whip is " nice". Or calling hypocrite snakes and vipers, is that nice?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What catholics do? No, what religion does.

I meant specifically about praying five times a day facing Jerusalem.

 

[pearl]

As such, from the time of the early Church, the practice of seven fixed prayer times have been taught; in Apostolic Tradition, Hippolytus instructed Christians to pray seven times a day "on rising, at the lighting of the evening lamp, at bedtime, at midnight" and "the third, sixth and ninth hours of the day, being hours associated with Christ's Passion."
Liturgy of the Hours - Wikipedia