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Disappointed in our bishop

Sheldon

Veteran Member
So what are you saying? That we should champion child abuse and set up a flag for it because it isn't any worse sin than homosexuality?
That isn't even close to what he said. Being gay harms no one, child abuse on the other hand victimises people in the worst way imaginable, and causes a life long trauma. Anyone who thinks these are remotely comparable has no moral compass.

Then again since the RCC protected priests responsible for the systematic and endemic rape of children in their care for many many years, that we know of, and even moved them to evade justice, and enable them to continue preying on children, suggests it's a morally bankrupt organisation, and rotten the core. Were there any real justice they'd be in the Hague facing trial for crimes against humanity.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That seems odd. My understanding is that the Jesuits do not report to the diocesan bishop but to the Jesuit General in Rome. So surely they can tell him he has no jurisdiction there, can’t they?

(I remember when I got married, the Jesuit who married us allowed us to ignore the tedious 6 month preparation for marriage process mandated by the diocese, on precisely these grounds:D.)
This was why my ex's church - run by a different religious order - was exempt from the archdiocese's mandatory reporting rules.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
What exactly is an abomination?
It is a thing that causes disgust or hatred. My beautiful self is an abomination to the radical left, simply for existing and sharing my thoughts. I am still here. Stronger than ever.

I encourage Catholicism- and any religion- to stand firm and remain true to its teachings. It is not the religion that must uproot itself and change to suit the individual… it is the individual who must make the necessary changes in their life if they seek to become a genuine part of that religion.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It is a thing that causes disgust or hatred. My beautiful self is an abomination to the radical left, simply for existing and sharing my thoughts. I am still here. Stronger than ever.

I encourage Catholicism- and any religion- to stand firm and remain true to its teachings. It is not the religion that must uproot itself and change to suit the individual… it is the individual who must make the necessary changes in their life if they seek to become a genuine part of that religion.

I agree with you!
This actually benefits new religions that don't have be chained to the past, since the old ones, at least the old ones that don't want to adapt to the new times, will tend toward dying a lone death thus giving room to new religions. Imagine not having to debate over what a man thousands of years ago meant by a given phrase or word.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It's an offensive act against the Abrahamic God. There are 84 of them in the Bible. A lying tongue is an abomination to God. But no matter how pious some Christians behave, there's no doubt in my mind that they can be guilty of lying through their teeth.

Thanks for the list!
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
It's a very odd set of moral priorities that sees sex between consenting adults as depraved, while simultaneously doing everything in their power to protect priests responsible for the endemic rape of children in their care.
It's not an odd set of priorities they're dealing with. The Church's problem stems from the fact that they have always claimed to speak for God. The ONLY source.

I was offering a subjective moral opinion obviously, in my view it's an odd set of moral principles that condemns sex between consenting adults, while protecting priests who have raped children in their care, so they can evade justice and continue to abuse children.

Before the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, the Church taught that only Catholics could go to Heaven. Protestants, Jews and all other faiths were excluded. I've read that the Church didn't denounce slavery until that meeting in the 1960s. But to admit to these changes -- to what you and I would see as moral advances -- the Church would have to admit that it was previously wrong -- and that admission would clash with their claim to speak for God.

I agree, but it's their problem that their archaic beliefs contain claims to moral absolutes, some of which are deeply pernicious.

Keeping the lid on their internal problems with priests is the very kind of thing one should expect from the Church.

Again I agree, which is why my opening post asked si anyone really surprised at homophobic bigotry from the RCC anymore.

That's a shame because most priests are good men, doing a helluva lot of good in their parishes for Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Well I am an atheist, and while I don't want to be unnecessarily churlish, we don't need adherence to pernicious dogma in order to do good. However my remarks addressed the context of this thread, and the recent and historical actions of the RCC. If as you suggest adherence to dogma is a barrier to them abandoning pernicious behaviour, then I draw a pretty obvious inference form that.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It is a thing that causes disgust or hatred. My beautiful self is an abomination to the radical left, simply for existing and sharing my thoughts. I am still here. Stronger than ever.

Disgust and hatred is anyone's right, it does not entitle them to discriminate against, or persecute others.

I encourage Catholicism- and any religion- to stand firm and remain true to its teachings.

Like when the Catholic church signed a concordat with Nazism? Odd they saw nothing wrong in protecting paedophile priests from prosecution, to save the blushes of the church, yet they need to stand firm against consenting adults having sex because they happen to be gay.

It is not the religion that must uproot itself and change to suit the individual… it is the individual who must make the necessary changes in their life if they seek to become a genuine part of that religion.

Cool story, is it a quote from the Inquisition?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I was offering a subjective moral opinion obviously, in my view it's an odd set of moral principles that condemns sex between consenting adults, while protecting priests who have raped children in their care, so they can evade justice and continue to abuse children.
My opening line was a poor selection; I wrote--- "It's not an odd set of priorities they're dealing with." That made it sound like I was going to disagree with you when what I meant to do is to use your thought, which certainly made sense, only to go a little deeper into causation.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That isn't even close to what he said. Being gay harms no one, child abuse on the other hand victimises people in the worst way imaginable, and causes a life long trauma. Anyone who thinks these are remotely comparable has no moral compass.

Then again since the RCC protected priests responsible for the systematic and endemic rape of children in their care for many many years, that we know of, and even moved them to evade justice, and enable them to continue preying on children, suggests it's a morally bankrupt organisation, and rotten the core. Were there any real justice they'd be in the Hague facing trial for crimes against humanity.

Thank you for replying to his post. I thought his reply was a rather strange reaction to my post.
 

KW

Well-Known Member
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags

A standoff between a Jesuit middle school and the bishop of Worcester, Mass., where the school is located, escalated Thursday, after Bishop Robert J. McManus stripped the “Catholic” moniker from the school over its decision to continue flying flags supporting L.G.B.T. pride and Black Lives Matter.
“The flying of these flags in front of a Catholic school sends a mixed, confusing and scandalous message to the public about the Church’s stance on these important moral and social issues,” states a decree issued on June 10 and signed by Bishop McManus. The ruling was posted to the diocese’s website on Thursday.

“These flags simply state that all are welcome at Nativity and this value of inclusion is rooted in Catholic teaching.”

In January 2021, students requested that the school fly a rainbow flag to show support for the L.G.B.T. community and another to support Black Lives Matter. According to the school, the flags remained up for more than a year before the bishop requested they be removed. Shortly after that request, the flags were torn down in an act of vandalism, but the school replaced them.

At issue is what the flags are perceived to symbolize.

Bishop McManus wrote in the decree that the pride flag connoted support for same-sex marriage, which the Catholic Church opposes, and for “actively living a LGBTQ+ lifestyle.”

As for the Black Lives Matter flag, the bishop wrote that “the Catholic Church teaches that all life is sacred and the Church certainly stands unequivocally behind the phrase ‘black lives matter’ and strongly affirms that all lives matter.”

But, he continued, the movement associated with Black Lives Matter “promotes a platform that directly contradicts Catholic social teaching on the importance and role of the nuclear family and seeks to disrupt the family structure in clear opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

“Both flags are now widely understood to celebrate the human dignity of our relatives, friends and neighbors who have faced, and continue to face hate and discrimination,” Mr. McKenney wrote. “Though any symbol or flag can be co-opted by political groups or organizations, flying our flags is not an endorsement of any organization or ideology,” he said, adding that “they fly in support of marginalized people.”

“This leaves me no other option but to take canonical action,” he continued.

In addition to no longer being able to describe itself as Catholic, the school is not permitted to celebrate Mass on its premises, is barred from engaging in fundraising with diocesan organizations and must remove a previous Worcester bishop from its board of directors.

The move by Bishop McManus to strip the Nativity School of its Catholic label mirrors a similar situation that played out three years ago.

Administrators at the Jesuit-run College of the Holy Cross, which is located in Worcester and has connections to the Nativity School, responded by calling his remarks “deeply hurtful and offensive.” That prompted a reply from the bishop, who repeated his call that all people, including those who are transgender, be treated with compassion and respect. But he stood by his remarks.

“If certain members of the Holy Cross community find this to be hurtful and offensive, then perhaps the college should present clearly what Catholicism teaches regarding Christian anthropology and human sexuality,” he said in 2019.

Personally, I think this bishop is out of touch with Francis.
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags | America Magazine


This Bishop is on the money with his analysis.

I wish we had more brave bishops standing up for truth!
 

KW

Well-Known Member
It's a very odd set of moral priorities that sees sex between consenting adults as depraved, while simultaneously doing everything in their power to protect priests responsible for the endemic rape of children in their care.


Odd to you.

It all gets back to belief in God.

If you believe we were created by God then you likely believe that there is a purpose to our lives. God's revelation regarding how we should live is to help us achieve our purpose and live the most fulfilling life possible.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
It's a very odd set of moral priorities that sees sex between consenting adults as depraved, while simultaneously doing everything in their power to protect priests responsible for the endemic rape of children in their care.
Odd to you.

Of course to me, who else's moral opinion should I give? I was offering a subjective moral opinion, as of course are religious apologists though they want to pretend theirs is endorsed by a deity, but are you saying you think gay sex between consenting adults is worthy of condemnation, but the endemic rape of children by catholic priests is not, and it was right for the church to protect them from justice, even moving them on to rape even more children?

It all gets back to belief in God.

So this justifies any act, no matter the obvious harm? Nice...

If you believe we were created by God then you likely believe that there is a purpose to our lives.

I am an atheist.

God's revelation regarding how we should live is to help us achieve our purpose and live the most fulfilling life possible.

If you say so, I can't agree, as it's an unevidenced archaic superstition, just one of many humans have invented. However while anyone is free to believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes them happy, they are not free to use that belief to justify discriminating against or persecuting others, or at least they shouldn't be, and we are discussing homophobia, which is a particularly pernicious aspect of some religious doctrines.
 
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JIMMY12345

Active Member
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags

A standoff between a Jesuit middle school and the bishop of Worcester, Mass., where the school is located, escalated Thursday, after Bishop Robert J. McManus stripped the “Catholic” moniker from the school over its decision to continue flying flags supporting L.G.B.T. pride and Black Lives Matter.
“The flying of these flags in front of a Catholic school sends a mixed, confusing and scandalous message to the public about the Church’s stance on these important moral and social issues,” states a decree issued on June 10 and signed by Bishop McManus. The ruling was posted to the diocese’s website on Thursday.

“These flags simply state that all are welcome at Nativity and this value of inclusion is rooted in Catholic teaching.”

In January 2021, students requested that the school fly a rainbow flag to show support for the L.G.B.T. community and another to support Black Lives Matter. According to the school, the flags remained up for more than a year before the bishop requested they be removed. Shortly after that request, the flags were torn down in an act of vandalism, but the school replaced them.

At issue is what the flags are perceived to symbolize.

Bishop McManus wrote in the decree that the pride flag connoted support for same-sex marriage, which the Catholic Church opposes, and for “actively living a LGBTQ+ lifestyle.”

As for the Black Lives Matter flag, the bishop wrote that “the Catholic Church teaches that all life is sacred and the Church certainly stands unequivocally behind the phrase ‘black lives matter’ and strongly affirms that all lives matter.”

But, he continued, the movement associated with Black Lives Matter “promotes a platform that directly contradicts Catholic social teaching on the importance and role of the nuclear family and seeks to disrupt the family structure in clear opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

“Both flags are now widely understood to celebrate the human dignity of our relatives, friends and neighbors who have faced, and continue to face hate and discrimination,” Mr. McKenney wrote. “Though any symbol or flag can be co-opted by political groups or organizations, flying our flags is not an endorsement of any organization or ideology,” he said, adding that “they fly in support of marginalized people.”

“This leaves me no other option but to take canonical action,” he continued.

In addition to no longer being able to describe itself as Catholic, the school is not permitted to celebrate Mass on its premises, is barred from engaging in fundraising with diocesan organizations and must remove a previous Worcester bishop from its board of directors.

The move by Bishop McManus to strip the Nativity School of its Catholic label mirrors a similar situation that played out three years ago.

Administrators at the Jesuit-run College of the Holy Cross, which is located in Worcester and has connections to the Nativity School, responded by calling his remarks “deeply hurtful and offensive.” That prompted a reply from the bishop, who repeated his call that all people, including those who are transgender, be treated with compassion and respect. But he stood by his remarks.

“If certain members of the Holy Cross community find this to be hurtful and offensive, then perhaps the college should present clearly what Catholicism teaches regarding Christian anthropology and human sexuality,” he said in 2019.

Personally, I think this bishop is out of touch with Francis.
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags | America Magazine
I think this is why Pope Francis is so popular in his humanity which embraces differing issues. Also his talent for plain language. His predecessors excelled in producing long weighty academic encyclicals. They should have saved themselves the trouble. To many these were academic gibberish for the few who actually bothered to read them.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags

A standoff between a Jesuit middle school and the bishop of Worcester, Mass., where the school is located, escalated Thursday, after Bishop Robert J. McManus stripped the “Catholic” moniker from the school over its decision to continue flying flags supporting L.G.B.T. pride and Black Lives Matter.
“The flying of these flags in front of a Catholic school sends a mixed, confusing and scandalous message to the public about the Church’s stance on these important moral and social issues,” states a decree issued on June 10 and signed by Bishop McManus. The ruling was posted to the diocese’s website on Thursday.

“These flags simply state that all are welcome at Nativity and this value of inclusion is rooted in Catholic teaching.”

In January 2021, students requested that the school fly a rainbow flag to show support for the L.G.B.T. community and another to support Black Lives Matter. According to the school, the flags remained up for more than a year before the bishop requested they be removed. Shortly after that request, the flags were torn down in an act of vandalism, but the school replaced them.

At issue is what the flags are perceived to symbolize.

Bishop McManus wrote in the decree that the pride flag connoted support for same-sex marriage, which the Catholic Church opposes, and for “actively living a LGBTQ+ lifestyle.”

As for the Black Lives Matter flag, the bishop wrote that “the Catholic Church teaches that all life is sacred and the Church certainly stands unequivocally behind the phrase ‘black lives matter’ and strongly affirms that all lives matter.”

But, he continued, the movement associated with Black Lives Matter “promotes a platform that directly contradicts Catholic social teaching on the importance and role of the nuclear family and seeks to disrupt the family structure in clear opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

“Both flags are now widely understood to celebrate the human dignity of our relatives, friends and neighbors who have faced, and continue to face hate and discrimination,” Mr. McKenney wrote. “Though any symbol or flag can be co-opted by political groups or organizations, flying our flags is not an endorsement of any organization or ideology,” he said, adding that “they fly in support of marginalized people.”

“This leaves me no other option but to take canonical action,” he continued.

In addition to no longer being able to describe itself as Catholic, the school is not permitted to celebrate Mass on its premises, is barred from engaging in fundraising with diocesan organizations and must remove a previous Worcester bishop from its board of directors.

The move by Bishop McManus to strip the Nativity School of its Catholic label mirrors a similar situation that played out three years ago.

Administrators at the Jesuit-run College of the Holy Cross, which is located in Worcester and has connections to the Nativity School, responded by calling his remarks “deeply hurtful and offensive.” That prompted a reply from the bishop, who repeated his call that all people, including those who are transgender, be treated with compassion and respect. But he stood by his remarks.

“If certain members of the Holy Cross community find this to be hurtful and offensive, then perhaps the college should present clearly what Catholicism teaches regarding Christian anthropology and human sexuality,” he said in 2019.

Personally, I think this bishop is out of touch with Francis.
Bishop forbids Jesuit-run school from calling itself ‘Catholic’ for flying LGBT and Black Lives Matter flags | America Magazine

The swastika has ancient roots in balance and other cool things. It was used by the Nazis and has really fallen out of favor.

How do flags that in addition to any nice things also represent assaults on religious liberty, violence and murder fit with Catholic values?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think this is why Pope Francis is so popular in his humanity which embraces differing issues. Also his talent for plain language. His predecessors excelled in producing long weighty academic encyclicals. They should have saved themselves the trouble. To many these were academic gibberish for the few who actually bothered to read them.
:clapping:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
it is the individual who must make the necessary changes in their life if they seek to become a genuine part of that religion.
"Church", which means "congregation"/"assembly", is used 109 times in the NT, thus it ain't just an individual thingy.
 
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