Audie
Veteran Member
"Seek and you will find. God will help."
See if you can use fewer words.
Let's see. "God helps seekers to find"
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Disbelievers in Christianity Answer Please!
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
See if you can use fewer words.
Let's see. "God helps seekers to find"
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It seems to me that the Comforter would not only testify of Jesus but also explain why there is no cause to hate Jesus, quite the contrary.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This is as easy as pie. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit that God sent to Baha'u'llah to comfort people.
Jesus was a Comforter because God sent Him the Holy Spirit to comfort people.
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter because God sent Him the Holy Spirit to comfort people.
If the Comforter was the Holy Spirit the following verse would not make any sense because it would have to mean that there is more than one Holy Spirit.
That will not work for you.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
The Holy Spirit wasn't sent to the Church until Pentacost, which in Acts. So he was speaking of the Holy Spirit there.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If Jesus is a Comforter you just lost this argument, since you have been saying that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
The argument that the verse was spoken to the disciples won't work either, because that would mean that nothing that was addressed to the disciples applies to anyone living in the future, which would make most of the NT only for the disciples, meaning it would not apply to Christians living today. Logic is all one needs to refute your claims.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The other Comforter is the Spirit of Truth, who was Baha'u'llah.
The Spirit of truth already dwelt in the disciples because they got the Holy Spirit from Jesus. That was the same Holy Spirit that made Baha'u'llah the Spirit of Truth.
"the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him" applies to Baha'u'llah who had not been seen so He was not known at the time the disciples were addressed.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Yes, it is the Holy Spirit. The verse does not say HOW the Father will send the Holy Spirit.
The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Baha'u'llah, and that is why He was called the Comforter.
Baha'u'llah did exactly what that verse says, He taught all things, and brought all things to remembrance, whatever Jesus had said.
As I said in the other post, that argument will not work.
If the Comforter was the Holy Spirit the following verse would not make any sense because it would have to mean that there is more than one Holy Spirit.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Clearly, Jesus was a Comforter, and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter. Jesus was a Comforter because He comforted people.
Jesus promised that He would not leave us comfortless, He would come to us again.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
We know that Jesus would not come to us again, not in body but in spirit.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
No, I do not have to deny what Jesus said, I only have to interpret it properly.
Salam
@Trailblazer I believe the comforter between Mohammad (s) and Jesus (a) was Elijah (a) but the future one to come was Mohammad (s). Go back to the talk of how people should know Elijah (a) has returned and it's with Jesus (a) mentioning that he was in fact rejected before that (Yahya (a) / John (a)) and the world didn't recognize him. This a strong indication when Jesus (a) leaves, Elijah (a) will hold the station of light and holy spirit, till Mohammad (s) will come but he will be hidden, and the wisdom of him being hidden is because John (a) was killed, and attempts to kill Jesus (a) was done as well.
The two places Elyas (a) is mentioned are a strong indication of this (in the Quran).
The holy spirit has always been on earth, it's a position inherited by one person after another.
@Trailblazer I believe the comforter between Mohammad (s) and Jesus (a) was Elijah (a) but the future one to come was Mohammad (s). Go back to the talk of how people should know Elijah (a) has returned and it's with Jesus (a) mentioning that he was in fact rejected before that (Yahya (a) / John (a)) and the world didn't recognize him. This a strong indication when Jesus (a) leaves, Elijah (a) will hold the station of light and holy spirit, till Mohammad (s) will come but he will be hidden, and the wisdom of him being hidden is because John (a) was killed, and attempts to kill Jesus (a) was done as well.
The two places Elyas (a) is mentioned are a strong indication of this (in the Quran).
The holy spirit has always been on earth, it's a position inherited by one person after another.
Brian2
Veteran Member
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,6 to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Of course it makes sense without trying to change the meaning of the plain English to fit Baha'i doctrine.
But you are saying that it makes sense that the disciples Jesus was speaking to know the Spirit of Truth and that this Spirit of Truth was dwelling with them and will be in them.
وَكَذَٰلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ رُوحًا مِنْ أَمْرِنَا ۚ مَا كُنْتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ وَلَٰكِنْ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُورًا نَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ نَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۚ وَإِنَّكَ لَتَهْدِي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ | Thus have We imbued/inspired/revealed you with a Spirit of Our command. You did not know what the Book is, nor what is faith; but We made it a light that We may guide by its means whomever We wish of Our servants and indeed, you guide to a straight path, | Ash-Shura : 52
This shows spirit of God's command which is synonymous with the holy spirit, is a light by which God guides whoever he pleases by, and then it emphasizes Mohammad (s) is one who guides as such.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course the following verses make sense without trying to change the meaning of the plain English to fit Christian doctrine.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 16:9 I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more
Jesus never claimed to be a king, and He never said he was coming to rule. The things that Christians believe about Jesus returning to rule and build a kingdom are completed negated by the words of Jesus.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
It is not the Baha'is who don't understand what the Bible means, it is the Christians.
Brian2
Veteran Member
We both say that Jesus promised another Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, and that the first comforter was Jesus. It is just that you are claiming that the promised Comforter is Baha'u'llah and I am saying that the promised Comforter is the Holy Spirit---just as John 14:26 tells us.
I am also saying that John 14:16,17 shows that the Spirit of Truth is promised to the disciples Jesus was speaking to and that it was with them and would be in them.
These things show that the promised Spirit of Truth cannot be the man Baha'u'llah.
And if Jesus promises something to the disciples that He is speaking to, that does not mean that it does not apply to the disciples of Jesus in the future.
And if Jesus promises something to the disciples He was speaking to however, it does mean that it applies to them.
So now you are saying that the Spirit of Truth IS the Holy Spirit.
You were saying that the Holy Spirit is not the Comforter or the Spirit of Truth but is the Bounty of God.
What a tangled web this is turning into.
So you agree that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit now. OK. And I suppose you also agree that he was sent to the disciples Jesus promised to send it do and that it brought all things that Jesus had said to their memory.
The promised Comforter is the Holy Spirit (John 14:26)
The promised Comforter is the Spirit of Truth (John 14:16,17, John 15:26)
Jesus said to His disciples that He would not leave them comfortless, but would come to them.
So that is what Jesus did, He came to His disciples and did that when the Holy Spirit was given to them because the Holy Spirit brings both the Father and the Son.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That is a different topic. We aren't talking about that topic at the moment.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Muhammad disagrees with the words of God in the Hebrew Scriptures and with the gospel message.
You know, it was ever thus -- your admonition to "assume it happened." Well, once we make such an assumption, we're bound to go where you want us to go -- even if the assumption if wrong. And what have you proved? What have you gained? What have you taught anyone?
I had a friend, very religious, who told me once that, "in order to prove the existence of angels, you must first posit that existence." See the problem? First, we'll make what we're trying to prove an axiom (as you did, by saying "assume it happened"), and once we've done that, well, there's nothing left to argue, is there?
Why can't we start with something less contrived. Jesus said that he would return before some of those listening to him were dead. In Mark 9:1 and its parallels (Matt. 16:28; Luke 9:27), Jesus promises that “there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
So, can we just ask the simple question: "did that happen?" As far as I am aware, the answer is no.
Truly, @InvestigateTruth, if you do want to investigate truth, you can't do it be presupposing that you already know what it is and asking the rest of us to pretend along with you.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Too short, not spiritual enough...
Seek God, and diligently and earnestly desire nearness to his holy majesty... and ask for and expect his help, and you will probably have something happen that you will believe is God answering you and revealing himself to you. Don't question it, just believe it. And, if by chance, nothing happens, it's not God's fault, it was you not being earnest enough. So, try again. This time be a little more diligent. If still nothing happens. I've got bad news... You're probably not one of the chosen. You know, his sheep hear his voice. Well, you're not one of the sheep. But thanks for trying.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, it's kind of a lie, because the Baha'i Faith believes the Quran is more authentic than the Bible. So, for Baha'is, the Quran should be the "greatest" testimony from God to man, not the Bible.
"As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá’u’lláh’s statement in the ‘Gleanings’ concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael, although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22.9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá’u’lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur‘án, which book is more authentic than the Bible including both the New and the Old Testaments. The Bible is not Wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur‘án, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh."
(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 501)
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The last thing she is said is very important... that Baha'is interpret the Bible correctly and Christians don't. That's the magic eraser. Any or all Christians doctrines and beliefs that they hold that don't agree with what the Baha'is believe is wrong.
All that stuff about being saved, sin entering the world through Adam's sin, Satan and hell and the resurrection of Jesus... Christians have never had it right. I guess, even the Christians that wrote the epistles and gospels. But for sure, all the Christians that came after them and all the way to this day, Christians have misunderstood and misinterpreted their own Scriptures.
So, I ask Baha'is yet again... When did Christianity ever have the truth and teach the truth? Going by what is plainly said in the NT, the answer has to be never. Christians never had it right.
So Brian, I have my doubts about Baha'i and Christian beliefs. But I don't doubt that what you believe is supported by what is said in the NT. Especially the verses about the resurrection. I question it, and I doubt it. But I don't go around saying that Christians misinterpreted those verses. That the spirit of Jesus rose, but his body didn't. What's so special about that? The Baha'is believe everybody's spirit rises.
Audie
Veteran Member
I'm no o.t. style prophet. Just looking
for content. That Mr b. stuff makes a filibuster
look concise.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well, I see we are making some progress.
You have been insisting that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit but you are now conceding to the fact that Jesus was a Comforter, which means that the Comforter is not the Holy Spirit. You cannot look at one or two verses, you need to look at all the verses in John Chapters 14, 15, and 16 as a whole and in the context of the chapter in order to get the whole picture. If you do that you will realize that they all fit together and make sense.
If Jesus was a Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit then another Comforter would also be a man who brought the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I already explained the last part of that verse: "but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
The reason that the disciples know the Spirit of truth (even though the world has not seen or known Him) is because the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) was in Jesus, so the disciples already received the Spirit of Truth. AGAIN, the Spirit of truth is only a title of the man who brings the Holy Spirit.
How do you explain this part of the verse?
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:"
If the Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that would make this part of the verse false, because the world had seen and known the Holy Spirit before this verse was written about 6th century. As I understand it, the Holy Spirit first came to the disciples on the Day of Pentecost, but the Holy Spirit was 'in the world' long before that. I actually looked that up.
Bible Question:
When did the Holy Spirit come: after Jesus or before? The Old Testament also refers to the Holy Spirit. When reading John 16:7, it sounds as if the Holy Spirit is sent to replace the physical absence of Jesus. Why would the Holy Spirit be in the Old Testament then?Bible Answer:
When did the Holy Spirit come is an extremely important question. The answer to this question unlocks the door of many mysteries about the Holy Spirit and the ministry of Jesus Christ. Two tables are provided that show the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and His ministry to Christ.Holy Spirit’s Ministry in the Old Testament
The Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament. He has always been present upon the earth. In the Old Testament He ministered to believers such as Moses and his leadership team, as well as to Othniel, Gideon, Samson, Samuel, Jephthah, Saul, David, and all of the prophets.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It would make sense if the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah because at the time John 14 was written the world could not receive Baha'u'llah, since the world could not see him or know him, since He had not come into the world yet.
It also makes sense that the Spirit of truth is a man, because only a man could do what it says in these verses, and Baha'u'llah did everything they say.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
I can agree with that.
It sure is a tangled web and I don't know how to untangle it, so I am trying to take it one step at a time because if I say too much I only make matters worse.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
The Comforter is a title given to the man who would bring the Holy Spirit.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit so He was called a Comforter.
Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit AGAIN, so He was another Comforter.
The Spirit of truth is a title given to the man who would bring the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was not called the Spirit of truth because He held back some of the truth that he knew since people of His day were not ready to hear all truth.
Baha'u'llah was called the Spirit of truth because He brought the 'many things' that Jesus held back, and did everything else in these verses.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
As I said above:
The Comforter is a the title of the man who brought the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit of truth is the title of the man who brought the Holy Spirit.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This refers to 'another Comforter' so Jesus was not making a promise to the disciples here. We know that because none of that happened back in the days of Jesus.
These verses refer to what will happen when 'another Comforter' comes long after the disciples have died, so Jesus was not making a promise to the disciples here. It was a general promise to humanity, for whoever would be reading the Bible in the future.
I believe that these verses refer to the spirit of Jesus coming again in Baha'u'llah. Mind you, this is only my personal interpretation, not an official Baha'i interpretation. I believe this because Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth in His Writings, but that is a subject for another day.
John 14
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Oh content... Well, that's different. They tell me it's in there somewhere.
Actually, I have found some content. But I disagree with some of it. Maybe the flowery stuff is supposed to hide some of the things he's saying.
I was told to read one of his books, and right at the beginning he starts talking about Noah. It was nothing like the Bible story. No flood, no ark. Where did he get his version? Did he just make it up? Or I guess it's supposedly the real story and the Bible story is the one that's fake.
Here it is if you want to take a quick glance. But if you don't want to, I'll understand...
Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.”4
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Bible is God's greatest testimony because it spans so many years of mankind's history. It has nothing to do with authenticity.
The Heart of the Gospel is a book that was written by a Christian clergyman who resigned his orders after 40 years to become a Baha’i. It explains how the Bible covers history.