Disbelievers in Christianity Answer Please!

[CG Didymus]

I think the Baha'is have a variety of beliefs about the Bible, depending which Baha'i you are talking to, but overall Baha'is tend to disbelieve the Bible while saying they believe it. That's the fruit of the false prophet Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah wouldn't do a thing to harm the gospel or say that it is wrong and not applicable today.
LOL

He said it's the "most great testimony"? What do Baha'is think is so "great" about it? I think they believe the Quran more accurate and more authoritative. So, I asked them about the story in the Quran about Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm. None of them answered back, but the answer should be easy for them... The story in the Quran, for Baha'is, is the one that's true. And the stories in the Gospels are not.

But I still keep harping on them for not believing in the resurrection story. If they are going to believe that, then why even claim to believe in Christianity, the Bible and the NT? They have, essentially, made the Bible and the NT meaningless. They don't believe the stories are accurate, yet they still say that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus were all God sent manifestations.

As far as I can tell it is only to support their "progressive" revelation belief. Which is convenient, because they can say that all the past religions were true. But only true and relevant for the time the message was first given to when the next manifestation came and brought a new message.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Knowledge of what? Knowledge that Christ was from God because he raised the dead?

Why would that be impressive?

First point -- did Christ raise the dead, or are there unverifiable claims that he did so. I think that there is an important difference.

Second, why would it be impressive? I'll tell you this, everybody in medical practice, who spend so much time trying to save lives, would be monumentally impressed.

 

[Trailblazer]

First point -- did Christ raise the dead, or are there unverifiable claims that he did so. I think that there is an important difference.

I do not believe that Christ raised the dead. All we have are unverifiable claims.

Second, why would it be impressive? I'll tell you this, everybody in medical practice, who spend so much time trying to save lives, would be monumentally impressed.

Even if Christ did raise a few dead people, which would have been a miracle because it goes against what science knows is possible, how would that benefit anyone in medical practice? They might be impressed but what benefit would be derived therefrom?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend

I would believe something happend I could not explain. But where is the evidence that this person is Jesus and a God?

 

[Brian2]

No, He would not, because He did not think it was wrong. Only the Christian interpretation of it is wrong.

For Baha'is that interpretation includes what the writers of the gospels said apart from the words of Jesus and what the early Christians said in the epistles and what the apostolic Fathers of the first and 2nd century said and anything that Jesus said that does not agree with Baha'u'llah. So most of the New Testament has a wrong interpretation of the gospels and of don't even know if Jesus died and rose again as a man, but Baha'u'llah came to change all that so that we now know, but it does not matter anyway because the gospel is passe, old hat, and the covenant of Baha'u'llah takes over.
And of course Muhammad replaced Jesus only 600 years or so after Jesus and he also corrected the interpretation of the Christians but Muhammad was also wrong according to Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah claims to be the Spirit of Truth promised in the gospels by Jesus but this Spirit of Truth was to guide the disciples of Jesus day into all truth (John 14:17, John 16:13) This Spirit of Truth is said by Jesus to dwell with and in the disciples of Jesus day (John 14:17)
This is examples of how Baha'u'llah agrees with the gospels and what Jesus said.
He doesn't.
It is a choice, is Jesus telling the truth or Baha'u'llah?

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah claims to be the Spirit of Truth promised in the gospels by Jesus but this Spirit of Truth was to guide the disciples of Jesus day into all truth (John 14:17, John 16:13) This Spirit of Truth is said by Jesus to dwell with and in the disciples of Jesus day (John 14:17)
This is examples of how Baha'u'llah agrees with the gospels and what Jesus said.
He doesn't.
It is a choice, is Jesus telling the truth or Baha'u'llah?

No, the choice is not whether Jesus or Baha'u'llah were telling the truth. The choice is whether Christianity or the Baha'i Faith has the correct interpretation of the verses. Jesus did not interpret those verses and decide what the Spirit of truth means, Christians did that.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Since I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, that is why the world could not receive Him see Him or know Him in back in Jesus' day, since He had not been born yet.

However, the Holy Spirit, which is the Bounty of God, already dwelt in the disciples, since it came to them from Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

No, the choice is not whether Jesus or Baha'u'llah were telling the truth. The choice is whether Christianity or the Baha'i Faith has the correct interpretation of the verses. Jesus did not interpret those verses and decide what the Spirit of truth means, Christians did that.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Since I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, that is why the world could not receive Him see Him or know Him in back in Jesus' day, since He had not been born yet.

However, the Holy Spirit, which is the Bounty of God, already dwelt in the disciples, since it came to them from Jesus.

Jesus did interpret who this Spirit of Truth is.
John 15:26 “But when the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

So Jesus calls the Spirit of Truth, the Advocate (Paraclete/Councellor)
But Jesus had already said in the same talk to His disciples, that the Advocate was the Holy Spirit, so the Advocate is the Holy Spirit and is the Spirit of Truth. That means that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit.................according to Jesus.

John 14:26 But the Advocate (Paraclete/Councellor), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Audie]

He said it's the "most great testimony"? What do Baha'is think is so "great" about it? I think they believe the Quran more accurate and more authoritative. So, I asked them about the story in the Quran about Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm. None of them answered back, but the answer should be easy for them... The story in the Quran, for Baha'is, is the one that's true. And the stories in the Gospels are not.

But I still keep harping on them for not believing in the resurrection story. If they are going to believe that, then why even claim to believe in Christianity, the Bible and the NT? They have, essentially, made the Bible and the NT meaningless. They don't believe the stories are accurate, yet they still say that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus were all God sent manifestations.

As far as I can tell it is only to support their "progressive" revelation belief. Which is convenient, because they can say that all the past religions were true. But only true and relevant for the time the message was first given to when the next manifestation came and brought a new message.

The " great bahai testimony" is 99 % word soup.

A bloated paragraph boiled down to one
sentence still has nothing original or deep.

 

[Brian2]

It is not the " great Baha'i testimony", it is the Bible that he was referring to.

I did not say The " great bahai testimony" is 99 % word soup.
It was @Audie who said that,,,,,,,,,,,,, post #128

My post was #127

 

[Trailblazer]

I did not say The " great bahai testimony" is 99 % word soup.
It was @Audie who said that,,,,,,,,,,,,, post #128

My post was #127

Sorry, you probably got that post because I started to reply to a post you sent me last night and I did not fully delete that before I responded to Audie.

I am still planning on responding to your post.

 

[Trailblazer]

The " great bahai testimony" is 99 % word soup.

It is not the " great Baha'i testimony", it is the Bible that he was referring to.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus did interpret who this Spirit of Truth is.
John 15:26 “But when the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

In John 15:26 Jesus indicates that the Advocate is the Spirit of truth, but Jesus did not interpret that verse, we had to do that.

So Jesus calls the Spirit of Truth, the Advocate (Paraclete/Councellor)

Yes, Jesus seems to be saying that the Advocate is the Spirit of truth, which is what I believe, but then who is the Advocate? Jesus does not say who the Advocate is.

But Jesus had already said in the same talk to His disciples, that the Advocate was the Holy Spirit, so the Advocate is the Holy Spirit and is the Spirit of Truth. That means that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit.................according to Jesus.

John 14:26 But the Advocate (Paraclete/Councellor), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

As you might recall, I interpret that verse differently than you do. You believe that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit, a spirit that lives inside of Christians and teaches them. I believe that the Advocate is the title of the man who brought the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit was sent from the Father to Baha'u'llah and that is why the verse says – “But the Advocate (Paraclete/Councellor), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name.”

Having received the Holy Spirit from God, Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity, just as Jesus had done. Since we know that the Advocate is the Spirit of truth, that means that they both refer to the same person, Baha'u'llah.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that proceeds from God. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Jesus and in the latter days the Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah. Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

The Advocate/Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

[CG Didymus]

The " great bahai testimony" is 99 % word soup.

A bloated paragraph boiled down to one
sentence still has nothing original or deep.

But it's spiritual sounding word soup.

Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker’s heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being.​

​

Who cares what he's trying to say. It just sounds so Holy... like it must be from God. Oh... and all that was one sentence? Okay, maybe a little bloated.

 

[CG Didymus]

I did not say The " great bahai testimony" is 99 % word soup.
It was @Audie who said that,,,,,,,,,,,,, post #128

My post was #127

The claim by Baha'u'llah is that the Bible is God's most great testimony. But what are Baha'is supposed to think is so great about a bunch of stories that they are told aren't necessarily accurate and could very well be fictional. And whose teachings have been replaced by a more accurate and authentic book, the Quran. Which in turn has been replaced by the Baha'i writings.

And still, Baha'is are taught that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? Saved by grace? Saved from hell? Belief in Satan? And that Jesus died and stayed dead and did not come back to life? And so many more Christian beliefs based on the Bible are all believed to be wrong by Baha'is. Maybe he meant the most great work of fiction?

 

[Ebionite]

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There's a hint in the context (from truth to knowledge):

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26

Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.
Psalms 35:19

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

 

[CG Didymus]

John 14:26 But the Advocate (Paraclete/Councellor), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

In Acts 2:4 it says...

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.​

​

That seems like a reasonable fulfillment of the verses in John. But, for those of us who are doubters, we'd question the reliability of the gospel of John and the book of Acts. And I'd imagine that Baha'is would too. But of course, not when it involves a verse they can interpret to be a prophecy about their guy.

Wait there's more. I forgot about Acts 1:8...

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”​

​

All kinds of problems with that verse for Baha'is. Not only does it support that the comforter verses are talking about the Holy Spirit coming to the disciples on Pentecost, but it is a quote from the resurrected Jesus. And for the Baha'is, how can that be if, like they believe, he didn't rise from the dead?

But there's more. In Acts 1:8 it says...

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”​

​

It doesn't say "Why are you looking into the sky? God's new messenger will come from Arabia. Then after that two new messengers will come from Persia." No, it says "this same Jesus".

I have no doubt that Baha'is either don't take those verses literally, or they don't take them as being accurate.

 

[Brian2]

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

With John 14:16 you see that Jesus is a Comforter but miss that the other Comforter that is promised, is promised to the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking. So that eliminates Baha'u'llah as the other Comforter.
If we look at not just John 14:16 we can see that this other Comforter is the Spirit of Truth, but that does not help your interpretation because this Spirit of Truth is said by Jesus live with Jesus disciples whom He was speaking to and further Jesus said to them that this Spirit of Truth would be in them. So Baha'u'llah is again eliminated.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

So who is this promised Advocate/Spirit of Truth? It is as Jesus said in John 14:26, the Holy Spirit.
I know that you interpret John 14:26 to be saying that the Comforter will bring the Holy Spirit, but that is not what it says, it says the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
So you have to deny what Jesus said and replace it with the doctrine of Baha'i, what Baha'u'llah said.
The false prophet whose fruit is to cause people to deny the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

The claim by Baha'u'llah is that the Bible is God's most great testimony. But what are Baha'is supposed to think is so great about a bunch of stories that they are told aren't necessarily accurate and could very well be fictional. And whose teachings have been replaced by a more accurate and authentic book, the Quran. Which in turn has been replaced by the Baha'i writings.

And still, Baha'is are taught that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? Saved by grace? Saved from hell? Belief in Satan? And that Jesus died and stayed dead and did not come back to life? And so many more Christian beliefs based on the Bible are all believed to be wrong by Baha'is. Maybe he meant the most great work of fiction?

Yes it's crazy stuff. @Trailblazer will reply to the post I just did and sincerely say that John 14:26 does not say or mean that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
Confirmation Bias is a mild definition of what is happening.

 

[Brian2]

In Acts 2:4 it says...

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.​

​

That seems like a reasonable fulfillment of the verses in John. But, for those of us who are doubters, we'd question the reliability of the gospel of John and the book of Acts. And I'd imagine that Baha'is would too. But of course, not when it involves a verse they can interpret to be a prophecy about their guy.

Wait there's more. I forgot about Acts 1:8...

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”​

​

All kinds of problems with that verse for Baha'is. Not only does it support that the comforter verses are talking about the Holy Spirit coming to the disciples on Pentecost, but it is a quote from the resurrected Jesus. And for the Baha'is, how can that be if, like they believe, he didn't rise from the dead?

But there's more. In Acts 1:8 it says...

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”​

​

It doesn't say "Why are you looking into the sky? God's new messenger will come from Arabia. Then after that two new messengers will come from Persia." No, it says "this same Jesus".

I have no doubt that Baha'is either don't take those verses literally, or they don't take them as being accurate.

Yes, as I said, it's all crazy stuff. They believe Baha'u'llah when he praises the Bible and then in the next breathe they deny the Bible. It's so easy to see for those who are not in it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not know why you brought Mahomet into the question? Rather than Buddha or some one else.
My first impression would be that I was hallucinating. It would take more than an apparent miracle to convince me otherwise.as I do not believe in miracles.