Discrimination in the Catholic Church

[JacobEzra.]

Well, we both have work to unite.

But that is for another topic. I have respect for Eastern Orthodox, and find that we both are in the same boat fighting against the same attacks by secular and modernist forces that are trying to tear us down. Which is more reason we need to unite.

But like I said, that is for another topic

 

[Mister Emu]

So priest ordained in protestant churches are valid priest?

I never said that, but baptisms and marriages performed by them are assumed valid.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I never said that, but baptisms and marriages performed by them are assumed valid.

Alright.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No other church has Apostolic succession.

If the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession, then so do the Orthodox, the Coptics, the Anglicans, and probably others that I'm forgetting.

I have already declared my position on what the Donatist believed, in which I profess the Catholic faith, not the heretical sect.

Hmm. It just seems to me that you're placing an undue amount of emphasis on the characteristics of the person performing the sacraments for an anti-Donatist: "she's a woman - the sacrament is invalid." "he's a heretic - the sacrament is invalid", etc.

BTW - I just thought of something: the person performing the sacrament stands in for Christ in all the sacraments, correct?

So what about baptism? It can be performed by women; it can be performed by anybody (even heathen me). So... if a woman can stand in the place of Christ in the case of baptism, how can she not stand in the place of Christ for the other six sacraments?

I mean, you won't find a woman performing a baptism in the Bible either. So where's the foundation for women performing that sacrament if there's no foundation for them performing sacraments generally?

 

[JacobEzra.]

If the Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession, then so do the Orthodox, the Coptics, the Anglicans, and probably others that I'm forgetting.

I do not get how you got such a silly idea. The Orthodox, sure.

Anglicans, no way. They broke away so the king could rule over the church and get divorce. He replace the Pope for the Archbishop of Canterbury and declared it the Church of England.

Oriental Orthodox are Apostolic origin as well.

Hmm. It just seems to me that you're placing an undue amount of emphasis on the characteristics of the person performing the sacraments for an anti-Donatist: "she's a woman - the sacrament is invalid." "he's a heretic - the sacrament is invalid", etc.

Wheres the apostolic authority?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Anglicans, no way. They broke away so the king could rule over the church and get divorce. He replace the Pope for the Archbishop of Canterbury and declared it the Church of England.

So what? Why would that invalidate their Apostolic Succession?

Even if they're a bunch of heretics, if they have an unbroken line of bishops all ordained in the proper form and whatnot, they're a bunch of heretics with Apostolic Succession. To argue otherwise is Donatism, just as I alluded to.

Wheres the apostolic authority?

What do you mean?

 

[JacobEzra.]

So what? Why would that invalidate their Apostolic Succession?

Even if they're a bunch of heretics, if they have an unbroken line of bishops all ordained in the proper form and whatnot, they're a bunch of heretics with Apostolic Succession. To argue otherwise is Donatism, just as I alluded to.

They do have a broken line.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They do have a broken line.

Where did it break, exactly?

 

[Blackheart]

You realize, of course, that Jesus was fully human. Therefore, his teachings are "of man."

His teachings were the messages of God as he was God messenger. How does a priest compare to that? Are they not ordained and chosen by man? Surely your are not saying that they are equal to Jesus?

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

First of all, thd hierarchy is not for influencing someone, but so that there would be people who would lead the church.

I was just making the point that what's "special" about priests is that they're entitled to have influence in the Church's policies. That's what women have been excluded from.

-Nato

 

[Blackheart]

I was just making the point that what's "special" about priests is that they're entitled to have influence in the Church's policies. That's what women have been excluded from.

-Nato

How are they entitled?

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

How are they entitled?

Um, they can rise in the Church hierarchy and influence policy. They can become bishops, cardinals, and even the Pope.

How many times does this need to be explained?

-Nato

 

[Mister Emu]

Where did it break, exactly?

Mid 16th century I think...

 

[sojourner]

As someone who doesn't believe in God, I think these are pretty much the same thing.

To her it's a fundamental concept, though.

t's just a matter of personal preference when it gets right down to it.

The church is an expression of community. "Personal preference" doesn't factor in.

Why couldn't this God want the Catholic Church changed to accommodate women priests?

Perhaps God does, and the church is just slow on the uptake. I'm speaking from the assumption that the church's claim to God's will is true.

 

[sojourner]

No other church has Apostolic succession.

:biglaugh:

Tell that to the Orthodox and the Anglicans.
you're naive entitlement is both sad and hilarious.

 

[sojourner]

Both.

They are a sister church, with sibling envy.

But you just claimed the Orthodox don't have the apostolic succession...

 

[sojourner]

Anglicans, no way. They broke away so the king could rule over the church and get divorce. He replace the Pope for the Archbishop of Canterbury and declared it the Church of England.

True, but the archbishop (and others) were already consecrated through the apostolic succession, so the line remained unbroken, even though they no longer recognized the authority of the Pope (the Patriarch of Constantinople doesn't either). Your argument here just doesn't wash.

 

[sojourner]

They do have a broken line.

How?

The archbishop was consecrated through the line, as well as the others. What constitutes a "broken line?" It's no different than the Orthodox.

 

[sojourner]

His teachings were the messages of God as he was God messenger. How does a priest compare to that? Are they not ordained and chosen by man? Surely your are not saying that they are equal to Jesus?

Teachings come to the church through divine revelation, too...
Just like Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Mid 16th century I think...

With whom??? Ever since the Archbishop (who was duly consecrated), there have always been three consecrated bishops to consecrate new bishops.