Discrimination in the Catholic Church

[JacobEzra.]

Nonsense. Would you rather her still condemn heliocentric cosmology?

She doesn't.

It was never dogmatic. Infallibility works for doctrine and moral issues. Such was not moral nor doctrine

 

[JacobEzra.]

I lust after my wife...
Keeps things in the bedroom healthy!

But according to Christ, lusting after other women is a sin. And Lust is natural.

Like I said, you need to read the Gospel.

 

[kepha31]

Have you taken a look at Europe lately? Poll after poll shows high levels of education and secularism, low levels of church attendance. The places where the Church has consistent footholds seem to be in less-educated, less-developed areas, like South America and Africa.

I can almost guarantee, let South America and Africa become developed and educated, and you'll see church attendance begin to lag behind.

The church will never be relevant while it commits to ridiculous platforms like anti-contraception.

Wrong. That Catholic Church is growing world wide. The contraception mentality has repeatedly proven to harm marriages and increase STD's.
Catholic League: For Religious and Civil Rights

Harvard Researcher agrees with Pope on condoms in Africa :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

Little girls do not grow up dreaming of hopping from bed to bed and contraception. They dream of a man who will sweep them off their feet and love them forever, and of having his many children. A cynicism born of the sexual revolution has brought emptiness to the hearts, wombs and lives of far too many modern women. This emptiness and pain can be avoided or redeemed and healed by the love of Christ and adherence to His teachings. The Catholic Church believes in such dreams because God wrote them on the human heart. And there are men who long for such a woman to love and cherish.

Real lovers want to give without reserve in God's own superabundance creating more hearts and lives to love. Contraception is like kissing through a screen door and real love cannot tolerate obstacles. Contraception breeds selfishness and separation that drives a wedge between husband and wife that kills love. Real lovers want their love to explode into the posterity of future generations for all eternity. This is the kind of passion and fulfillment God wants for His children. Contraception limits what should be boundless. It spits in the face of this glorious passion and love's true abandon; and that is why it is a sin. It seeks to "tame" love, thus killing it. The Catholic Church is the last bastion on earth of true romance. The modern world has suffocated love and made sex a thing of deadness.

http://lifeissues.net/writers/mall/mall_01contraceptionkills.html

Who is discriminating against who?

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Kepha, you're so full of ****. You're just regurgitating the standard platform that the Church always goes to. Complete and utter ************. Condom use reduces STDs and has no effect on marriages whatsoever. I've never heard of anyone's divorce being due, even in part, to contraception.

And frankly, I don't think a giant archaic institution whose ideal are virgins and eunuchs have any business telling me that I don't love my wife because we use contraception, even though she's diabetic and doesn't need to have any more children.

 

[sojourner]

Kepha, you're so full of ****. You're just regurgitating the standard platform that the Church always goes to. Complete and utter ************. Condom use reduces STDs and has no effect on marriages whatsoever. I've never heard of anyone's divorce being due, even in part, to contraception.

And frankly, I don't think a giant archaic institution whose ideal are virgins and eunuchs have any business telling me that I don't love my wife because we use contraception, even though she's diabetic and doesn't need to have any more children.

Well, if that's the case, then according to RCism, she doesn't have any business having sex -- it's not in God's plan for her. You're just using her for sex, man!

 

[kepha31]

Kepha, you're so full of ****. You're just regurgitating the standard platform that the Church always goes to. Complete and utter ************. Condom use reduces STDs and has no effect on marriages whatsoever. I've never heard of anyone's divorce being due, even in part, to contraception.

STD's
"In 2006, New York City gave away 17 million free condoms, yet the rate of syphilis spiked and the rates of chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis nationwide broke all previous records. So what did New York City do last year (2010)? It more than redoubled its efforts: it distributed 36 million free condoms. Now it has embarked on a new advertising campaign—the theme is “Get Some”—and is giving away free condoms at subway stations.
...The idea of ‘get some’ is a morally irresponsible sound bite. We’re worried about trans fats, we’re worried about second-hand smoke, and yet when it comes to sexually transmitted diseases, we can’t bring ourselves to tell people it’s time to practice restraint.”
Catholic League: For Religious and Civil Rights

The Catholic Church is not responsible for the skyrocketing chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis cases, it's behavioural wrecklessness, which is what the contraceptive mentality delivers. Moral issues affect societies, not just individuals.
Harvard Researcher agrees with Pope on condoms in Africa :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)



Divorce rates
One of the most devastating effects of contraception is its promotion of divorce and consequent destruction of family life. Below is a graph and table of historical events showing the how the rise of divorce mirrors the rise in the use of contraception.

http://onemoresoul.com/pdfs/DivorceandGraph.pdf
50% of couples who use contraception end up in divorce, while only 2% who use NFP end up in divorce.

And frankly, I don't think a giant archaic institution whose ideal are virgins and eunuchs have any business telling me that I don't love my wife because we use contraception, even though she's diabetic and doesn't need to have any more children.

Nobody is telling you you don't love your wife,
and nobody is telling you to have more children.
I'm just telling you there is a better alternative that is safe, natural, effective, approved by doctors and it will enhance your marriage rather than harm it. NFP Frequently Asked Questions | Natural Family Planning

Lastly, consecrated virginity is not a sacrament in the Catholic Church, marraige is. But in my experience, walls of information does nothing to abate prejudice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

http://onemoresoul.com/pdfs/DivorceandGraph.pdf

Lol - I like how your graph spikes right after Humanae Vitae. Apparently, controversial Papal encyclicals cause divorce.

But you do realize what that graph is measuring, don't you? All the spikes coincide with advancements of legal rights for women:

- from 1869 to 1920, voting rights come into place state-by-state. Your graph shows a steady rise in divorce rates.

- there's a bit of a jump from pre- to post-WWI. Women are given full suffrage in the US in 1920.

- it's generally flat through the 20s and 30s, and then as women move into the workforce during WWII, the divorce rate rises sharply.

- when the men return from the war and women's employment is reduced, the divorce rate drops again.

- with the rise of the Women's Liberation movement in the 60s and 70s, the divorce rate rises again.

So... kepha: are you against womens' rights? It seems to me that there's a clearer relationship between them and divorce than there is with contraception.

50% of couples who use contraception end up in divorce, while only 2% who use NFP end up in divorce.

Do you think those two categories are mutually exclusive?

Also, do you think that divorce is necessarily a bad thing? If the choice is between divorce or an unhappy marriage, then why would a low divorce rate be a positive outcome?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nobody is telling you you don't love your wife,
and nobody is telling you to have more children.
I'm just telling you there is a better alternative that is safe, natural, effective, approved by doctors and it will enhance your marriage rather than harm it. NFP Frequently Asked Questions | Natural Family Planning

lol.

IMO, the only reason that the Catholic Church is okay with NFP is that it's a horribly ineffective way of preventing pregnancy. If it reliably did what it claimed, they'd be completely against it.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Maybe the reason that the divorce rate is higher than NFP is that there are more adherents of contraceptives and not NFP. Plus, the only people that use NFP are Catholics, who are told that if they use any other thing and/or divorce, they will risk being in mortal sin.

Nobody is telling you you don't love your wife,
and nobody is telling you to have more children.
I'm just telling you there is a better alternative that is safe, natural, effective, approved by doctors and it will enhance your marriage rather than harm it. NFP

That isn't what the general consensus is on Catholic forums. Go over to CAF or CF and just take a look around. The standard, canned answer is that contraception comes between the spouses and God, that a REAL man who loves his wife would never use contraception, that a man's sperm ends up causing a unique bond between the spouses, and that if you are unable to rely on NFP only for medical reasons, then you have no business being married, period.

1. NFP is not an option for my wife and I due to extenuating circumstances

2. NFP is nothing more than Church-sponsored contraception. If it works, the Church will say that you didn't have a baby, but left the possibility open. If it doesn't, the Church will say that it's God's Will. The difference between contraception and NFP is that contraception has a higher success rate and also protects against STDs that an unfaithful, abuse spouse (you know, the one they're not allowed to divorce?) might bring home.

Lastly, consecrated virginity is not a sacrament in the Catholic Church, marraige is. But in my experience, walls of information does nothing to abate prejudice.

You obviously don't know me. I love parts of the Catholic church. I love the liturgy, the smells n bells, the adoration, the cult of the saints. I love chant.

You're one to talk about prejudice when you belong to an entity that cuts people off from Communion for a using an additive in the bedroom, among other things.

I call it using discernment.

If you call it prejudice, then your church is just as prejudiced as I.

 

[blackout]

I'm just telling you there is a better alternative that is safe, natural, effective, approved by doctors and it will enhance your marriage rather than harm it. NFP Frequently Asked Questions | Natural Family Planning

All other of my comments aside,
it is NOT a better alternative for everyone.

For someone like me,
the method won't work.
I work nights, my sleep patterns are all broken up
and completely irregular.

To get accurate temperature readings
you need a regular sleep schedule,
and you are supposed to chart at the same time every day.
For me this is impossible.

There are many other practical reasons that this method
is not the best alternative for many women.

And I say this from my own personal experience with it.

The RC, from the time I was a young woman,
made a mess of my mind regarding both sex and birth control.
I feel empathy for young people who are likewise indoctrinated
with all of this sexually intrusive teaching.

When you have grown up indoctrinated,
It can take years,
till you are truly able to take back, and OWN your own sexuality,
as well as making birth control decisions
that are TRULY best for YOU.

It is far more insulting
the way the RC seeks to control women,
but it harms young men equally.
I've seen and experienced it first hand.

 

[Songbird]

Most of my posts do not argue against gay marriage from the Church's point of view, but from a sociological POV. I bring up Church teaching because she is under attack for teaching what marriage is. I don't need Church teaching to prove that gay marriage is harmful to society.

But so far that's all you've used to convince people of various things; Church teachings. In addition to your current sources, you ought to look around for statistics from some peer-reviewed ones. Or even reputed news sources, like:

Reuters
BBC News
World News
CNN
CBC
Aljazeera

If the sources you've posted in this thread reflect the majority of your readings, you seem to only read Catholic websites. Do you see how limited and biased that is?

 

[ryanam]

Wrong. That Catholic Church is growing world wide. The contraception mentality has repeatedly proven to harm marriages and increase STD's.
Catholic League: For Religious and Civil Rights

Harvard Researcher agrees with Pope on condoms in Africa :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

Little girls do not grow up dreaming of hopping from bed to bed and contraception. They dream of a man who will sweep them off their feet and love them forever, and of having his many children. A cynicism born of the sexual revolution has brought emptiness to the hearts, wombs and lives of far too many modern women. This emptiness and pain can be avoided or redeemed and healed by the love of Christ and adherence to His teachings. The Catholic Church believes in such dreams because God wrote them on the human heart. And there are men who long for such a woman to love and cherish.

Real lovers want to give without reserve in God's own superabundance creating more hearts and lives to love. Contraception is like kissing through a screen door and real love cannot tolerate obstacles. Contraception breeds selfishness and separation that drives a wedge between husband and wife that kills love. Real lovers want their love to explode into the posterity of future generations for all eternity. This is the kind of passion and fulfillment God wants for His children. Contraception limits what should be boundless. It spits in the face of this glorious passion and love's true abandon; and that is why it is a sin. It seeks to "tame" love, thus killing it. The Catholic Church is the last bastion on earth of true romance. The modern world has suffocated love and made sex a thing of deadness.

http://lifeissues.net/writers/mall/m...tionkills.html

Who is discriminating against who?

I genuinely didn't believe that people honestly thought that the transmission of STDs was increased due to the use of contraception.

As far as I knew it was a lie that the pope spread to stop condom use.

Anyone who does believe this may as well crawl back under the rock from whence they came. With a minuscule amount of knowledge of virology or LIFE for that matter, you can easily conclude, and will know, that this is simply false.

 

[ryanam]

And lets not, for one second attribute the Catholic Church to romance. The last time we did that, MANY priests and bishops were arrested.

 

[kepha31]

I'm hoping to address the avalanche of objections raised from my prvious post:

OBJECTOR: It seems to me that the Catholic Church is way out of date with its opposition to contraception. In the United States, contraceptives have been used widely since the 1960s. Why is the Church so backward on this issue?

CATHOLIC: The Church believes that truth does not depend on being up with the times. Although we come to recognize truth at specific moments of history, the truth discovered is itself not subject to changing times. The use of contraception violates human dignity because it purposefully cuts off our reproductive powers, which are a part of our humanity.

OBJECTOR: That doesn’t make any sense to me. How could the use of contraceptives endanger our humanity?

CATHOLIC: To a person who has grown up within a contraceptive culture, it may seem that contraceptives not only do not hurt human beings but actually help them. But the Church sees this issue with a larger perspective. Every culture that has used contraceptives and infanticide, such as the Romans, have devalued children, and with them all humanity.

The rest: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0507sbs.asp

 

[blackout]

nice copy paste.

So much easier to just default to pre'scribed "catholic answers",
than actually think and answer for yourself, and FROM yourSelf.
(instead of out'sourcing all of your opinions and answers from some pamphlet or book or website or whatnot)
But then, this is the way of the doctrinal catholic.
It is the CHURCH, and it's approved teachers who will provide you with all of your important answers.
No real need for you to think for yourSelf,
it is REALLY only important that you agree and follow.


Here's the thing.
Us non-catholics are not ruled by your catholic doctrines,
(nor are we im'pressed with them)
and thus your doctrinally based answers
are completely non-influential, and non-impacting.
(to non catholics. and dare I say MANY MANY catholics,
who are not ruled by catholic doctrine either.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, since you only deigned to give us a copy-past of someone else's argument, I don't feel obliged to respond to it point-by-point, but I think the lines labelled "objector" would be better labelled "straw man".

Funny... I only ever see this "fake conversation" technique used in two places: religious debates and radio ads aimed at older listeners.

One thing stands out as especially odd, though:

OBJECTOR: What difference does that make? If I allow my body to heal from a bacterial infection by riding it out or I choose to use penicillin to speed up the healing process, I am achieving the same end.

CATHOLIC: Your analogy is misguided. Using medicine to achieve health is attempting to restore the body to its natural state. Using contraception is against the natural functions of our bodies. As is commonly said, the pill tricks the woman’s body into thinking that it is already pregnant.

By this logic, using caffeine to "trick the body" into "thinking" that it has had sleep would be "against the natural functions of our bodies". Is the Catholic Church going to take a cue from the Mormons and forbid coffee?

 

[blackout]

Well, since you only deigned to give us a copy-past of someone else's argument, I don't feel obliged to respond to it point-by-point, but I think the lines labelled "objector" would be better labelled "straw man".

Funny... I only ever see this "fake conversation" technique used in two places: religious debates and radio ads aimed at older listeners.

One thing stands out as especially odd, though:



By this logic, using caffeine to "trick the body" into "thinking" that it has had sleep would be "against the natural functions of our bodies". Is the Catholic Church going to take a cue from the Mormons and forbid coffee?

Almost EVERY medication is designed to trick the body into doing, or not doing something.
The reason for all the side effects has to do with the give and take between the trickery and the desired effect.
Pain reliever causes the stomach to bleed.
Is that bringing about "normal" body function?
You are doing this to relieve some pain,
which is truly the NORMAL function of your body.
Something is wrong, you feel pain.
So you make your stomach bleed because the normal function of your discomfort
is unpleasant for you.

Taken to it's end, this arguement would exclude just about all pharmecudicals.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Taken to it's end, this arguement would exclude just about all pharmecudicals.

It would also exclude most forms of surgery, since they're altering the body's 'natural state' to something more modified.

This could range from cosmetic surgery, to interior cosmetic surgery (gastric bypass etc), to major surgeries like heart transplants.

Even getting your ears pierced should be a Hell-worthy trespass.

 

[kepha31]

I try to use non-Catholic sources in my posts, as anyone can see, and I resort to Catholic teaching when it is attacked. But the CONSEQUENCES of ignoring the Church's teaching on sexuality is having its effects on the human race. Increase in divorce, increase in STD's tops the list. The evidence is overwhelming, and dismissing it just proves that the truth is not always popular.

"Few realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Evidence that contraception is in conflict with God’s laws comes from a variety of sources that will be examined in this tract."

 

[JacobEzra.]

nice copy paste.

So much easier to just default to pre'scribed "catholic answers",
than actually think and answer for yourself, and FROM yourSelf.
[]

Like its so much easier to attack and criticize the person instead of what they posted?