Discussion of the Secret Book of John

[Buttons*]

Sorry to go off topic, but it'll only be this one post Ash. I just want to try and clear something up.

No, its good to clear some things up. (especailly when I'm not giving good responses)

Gnosticism is very old, it predates Christianity. It has probably always been around, it crops up time and again. Taoism and Buddhism both contain aspects of what i consider Gnostic thought, yet they originated far from the Jewish and Christian Gnostics. Also read some Carl Jung, he's come up with the Gnostic thought on his own in modern times.

When it comes to mythology, Gnosticism uses the myths of whatever culture that it is in, to try and explain concepts that are difficult to grasp.
Thats why we have Jewish, Christian and Islamic Gnostic texts, that when boiled down give us the same concepts.

Yes. Gnostic texts are like the Eastern thought of Western religion... (imo)

Both are correct. The Gnostics used different stories in the OT to explain different things and sometimes they attributed different events within a story to the Gnostic God, others to the Demiurge - to a modern Christian it is difficult to see when, how and why these distinctions are being made
On the whole we see the God of the OT as being the Demuirge, but not everything in the OT was the work of the Demiurge.

Yeah... I didnt explain this too well... Hal's right. The part in blue is WHY it's hard for me to explain. It's not cut and dry when they're talking about the Demiurge and when they are talking about the Source. It's just something you have to read through and determine for yourself...

... we need to keep in mind that it is the concept the story is being used to represent that is important, and not so much the story itself.

and THIS, ladies and gents is why I dont like discussing the mythology. The important things are behind the words.

When we say God though, we do not mean Yahweh or Jehovah or Allah or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, nor any combination of them. God has never played a direct part in anything that has happened on Earth.

yesh, thanks for pointing this out. (i sorta forgot to )

Thanks for clearing that up Paul.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Hey, Buttons, I just pulled this from the Apocryphon of John.

"And the holy Spirit completed the divine Autogenes, his son, together with Barbelo, that he may attend the mighty and invisible, virginal Spirit as the divine Autogenes, the Christ whom he had honored with a mighty voice. He came forth through the forethought. And the invisible, virginal Spirit placed the divine Autogenes of truth over everything. And he subjected to him every authority, and the truth which is in him, that he may know the All which had been called with a name exalted above every name. For that name will be mentioned to those who are worthy of it.

"For from the light, which is the Christ, and the indestructibility, through the gift of the Spirit the four lights (appeared) from the divine Autogenes. He expected that they might attend him. And the three (are) will, thought, and life. And the four powers (are) understanding, grace, perception, and prudence.

The way I see it is that the Gnostics have Named the divine feminine, and the divine male being called the holy spirit. Which is just the other side of the Christian Coin. You might call them the dark side, the yang to your ying.

I was told that in order to achieve unity, the church of John and the church of Paul would have to reunite. It was explained that John held on to part of Christ's teachings and the church of Paul held on to the other part. John's teachings were passed down secretly, for the wisdom of that church was not to be known until the Spirit of Truth was revealed. Ok, anyway. Any thoughts on this? I'm digging up more information on Barbelo, I'm enjoying it very much.

 

[Buttons*]

I'm really sorry about this, but I asked us not to go on... .... i wanted to give a chance to catch up, so I'm going to ask again for you not to post anything further. I'd like to be the one leading... Yes, we'll have it open for discussion later, but It's my baby...

Hey, Buttons, I just pulled this from the Apocryphon of John.

The way I see it is that the Gnostics have Named the divine feminine, and the divine male being called the holy spirit. Which is just the other side of the Christian Coin. You might call them the dark side, the yang to your ying.

I was told that in order to achieve unity, the church of John and the church of Paul would have to reunite. It was explained that John held on to part of Christ's teachings and the church of Paul held on to the other part. John's teachings were passed down secretly, for the wisdom of that church was not to be known until the Spirit of Truth was revealed. Ok, anyway. Any thoughts on this? I'm digging up more information on Barbelo, I'm enjoying it very much.

Yes, tons of thoughts, we'll get to it in a bit. Just be patient for the mo. Thanks!

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I'm really sorry about this, but I asked us not to go on... .... i wanted to give a chance to catch up, so I'm going to ask again for you not to post anything further. I'd like to be the one leading... Yes, we'll have it open for discussion later, but It's my baby...

Yes, tons of thoughts, we'll get to it in a bit. Just be patient for the mo. Thanks!

*sits down shamefully and sticks nose back into book*

 

[Buttons*]

*sits down shamefully and sticks nose back into book*

not to worry, the stuff you just posted WILL be discussed.

Did you happen to have any other non-mythology questions about the previuosly posted scripture?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

not to worry, the stuff you just posted WILL be discussed.

Did you happen to have any other non-mythology questions about the previuosly posted scripture?

*raises hand* which part is mythology and which part is non-mythology?

 

[Buttons*]

*raises hand* which part is mythology and which part is non-mythology?

well its ALL mythology, but we're looking at it allegorically. I'm looking for gnosis-seeking, mind-burning thoughts within the texts beyond the words. You'd have to be somewhat familiar with the story i suppose to really get the full effect of what I'm attempting to do here.

The stories that are in the Secret Book of John are parallels to understand the Source. (although it's not really comprehendable...) I'm just planning to interpret it and try to get some thinking discussion on it.

What do you get out of the story so far?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

well its ALL mythology, but we're looking at it allegorically. I'm looking for gnosis-seeking, mind-burning thoughts within the texts beyond the words. You'd have to be somewhat familiar with the story i suppose to really get the full effect of what I'm attempting to do here.

The stories that are in the Secret Book of John are parallels to understand the Source. (although it's not really comprehendable...) I'm just planning to interpret it and try to get some thinking discussion on it.

What do you get out of the story so far?

Could this be an explaination of the first spirits incarnations? I have always thought that the spirit of Adam and Eve kept dividing and multiplying with every reincarnation. (Which is still how I think reincarnation works), but that wouldn't explain where the spirit of Adam's children came from, because he would not have yet died to be reincarnated. The explaination from John, would explain where the other souls came from, not just Adam and Eve.

 

[Buttons*]

Could this be an explaination of the first spirits incarnations?

It could I suppose.... Paul?
Honestly, I dont really believe in actual reincarnation in the way most people know it. We expel energy through our thoughts, through our very existance. That energy can never be taken back, or rewound, every second, and every breath we take is irreversible. Our "souls" (if you're going literalist, that is) are manifistations of the one, and wish to return to it. They do, bit by bit as we live. (its just that some of us are more aware than others.)
So reincarnation? not really, but perpetual existance because we have existed... yes. We live forever because we HAVE lived... (it's REALLY hard to explain) So as OUR light tries to return to the ONE light, it would encounter all the "souls" of the past, including Adam and Eve.

But... when I think of things in the books, I think of the gods and characters in the stories as allegories and parables for my "self" and it's nature in the Good.

I have always thought that the spirit of Adam and Eve kept dividing and multiplying with every reincarnation. (Which is still how I think reincarnation works), but that wouldn't explain where the spirit of Adam's children came from, because he would not have yet died to be reincarnated. The explaination from John, would explain where the other souls came from, not just Adam and Eve.

That could be I suppose, but i've never thought of it that way. Every "soul" would not have come from humans, that would be giving us too much credit

When Adam and Eve took the fruit, they were not only filled with knowledge (GNOSIS!!!) but the holy spirit, an abstract thought of the One. This is the spirit that lives within each of us. Now people can make choices to avoid the ignorance that they have been blinded with because of the inner light they posses. (whether they REALIZE it or not *smiles*)

 

[Ramacharaka]

the "secret book" of john is actually the Necronomicon, a book much older than the bible which concerns the exorcism of the 30,000 year old "Egyptian" devil king, there are many parallels in it to the book of Revelations, Such as the seven seals etc. John called the Roman empire babylon because the thing was obviously coming there like it was what happened when they raided the decendant of Mohammed's walled garden of sacred plants in ancient Sumaria. babylon is where Iraq is today. As this involved a pharisee (pharoh) approaching him and talking of the aeons. when the man speaks, almost every mention of "he" is referring to the god of the aeon...the raider of the walled garden and the man who built the pyramids in epic slavery and just using the word "he" shows how many christians cannot even read something like this and probably think this applies to Christ or a male god because christ was male. The monad is the priesthood of the holy land, what it was supposed to be, why the story of Jesus was even based near there, but talks of how the evil was absolute in its power. It is a very course warning to john for trying to incorporate the Necronomicon into something about rome, or as john postulated a future bad empire. he was a very careless man because of trying to implement a book of exorcism of ancient dark forces, and infact was himself a pawn of the devil, which now, upon people waiting for a "new christ", have let it go long enough for heroin to get invented and put out into society in wholesale. it has also given the Necronomicon a bad name, and you should read the new book the dark history of the necronomicon which just came out and explains the new age scene from the perspective of the man who translated the greek manuscript. it is a super great book I highly reccomend it.

 

[Buttons*]

the "secret book" of john is actually the Necronomicon, a book much older than the bible which concerns the exorcism of the 30,000 year old "Egyptian" devil king, there are many parallels in it to the book of Revelations, Such as the seven seals etc. John called the Roman empire babylon because the thing was obviously coming there like it was what happened when they raided the decendant of Mohammed's walled garden of sacred plants in ancient Sumaria. babylon is where Iraq is today. As this involved a pharisee (pharoh) approaching him and talking of the aeons. when the man speaks, almost every mention of "he" is referring to the god of the aeon...the raider of the walled garden and the man who built the pyramids in epic slavery and just using the word "he" shows how many christians cannot even read something like this and probably think this applies to Christ or a male god because christ was male. The monad is the priesthood of the holy land, what it was supposed to be, why the story of Jesus was even based near there, but talks of how the evil was absolute in its power. It is a very course warning to john for trying to incorporate the Necronomicon into something about rome, or as john postulated a future bad empire. he was a very careless man because of trying to implement a book of exorcism of ancient dark forces, and infact was himself a pawn of the devil, which now, upon people waiting for a "new christ", have let it go long enough for heroin to get invented and put out into society in wholesale. it has also given the Necronomicon a bad name, and you should read the new book the dark history of the necronomicon which just came out and explains the new age scene from the perspective of the man who translated the greek manuscript. it is a super great book I highly reccomend it.

*deep breath*

Thanks for recommending the book we're already taking a look at. Next time, though, would you please READ the OP?

 

[Halcyon]

It could I suppose.... Paul?

I'll be honest, i don't know what we're talking about anymore.

Where did we get up to in the Book? We've covered the One, now we're on Barbelo, have we gotton onto luminary and Aeon emanation yet?

I'm not understanding the questions about Adam and Eve, plus incarnation/reincarnation. Can someone rephrase and condense them for me?

 

[Buttons*]

I'll be honest, i don't know what we're talking about anymore.

Where did we get up to in the Book? We've covered the One, now we're on Barbelo, have we gotton onto luminary and Aeon emanation yet?

I'm not understanding the questions about Adam and Eve, plus incarnation/reincarnation. Can someone rephrase and condense them for me?

THIS is what happens when we get too far off topic. Paul is dumb and confused, poor Paul.

Well, I pulled scripture up through the beginning of Barbelo. I asked us to stop moving forward at post #39. So #39 is what we've stopped on. I have not covered the luminaries yet, I was hoping to get some help from you before I posted anything on them.

EnhancedSpirit's question was about souls. So, it was way off topic. She continued posting scripture on Barbelo after I asked us all to stop so everyone could catch up a bit. (NOT her fault though, I dont blame her for being interested.... post #42 is what she posted... but we're disregaurding it for the time being)

Her question was that if Adam and Eve were the first created, if their souls branched off and became the reincarnated soul to everyone.

Some random new poster decided to give us the history of the book of John.... so that was an utterly pointless post #50. (actually, i'm going to ask if you all could just ignore that post, please.)

*sigh* Let's go back to #39 for now, and once I get an okay from everyone, we'll move on. *smiles*

(If you all have any questions that you even think may not relate to the OP, please just PM me with them. Or, if you like, you may start your own thread! .... not like you ever needed my permission.)

 

[gnostic]

I think I had asked this question before, about "thrice-male" in the description of Barbelo. Your explanation seemed logical, button.

A furball to you. Oops! I mean "frubal".

 

[gnostic]

What does it mean when it say Barbelo is the "first man" (or the "first human being" in Bentley Layton's translation) mean?

Is she the first human?

Also she has been granted 4 requests from the One (prognosis, incorruptibility, eternal life and truth). Does this make her the One's equal?

 

[Buttons*]

What does it mean when it say Barbelo is the "first man" (or the "first human being" in Bentley Layton's translation) mean?

Also she has been granted 4 requests from the One (prognosis, incorruptibility, eternal life and truth. Does this make her the One's equal?

i'm gonna let Paul get this one, do you think it would be alright with you if he did?

 

[gnostic]

Anyone who can enlighten me about some of the details on this text will be much appreciated, button?

 

[Halcyon]

What does it mean when it say Barbelo is the "first man" (or the "first human being" in Bentley Layton's translation) mean?

Is she the first human?

Also she has been granted 4 requests from the One (prognosis, incorruptibility, eternal life and truth). Does this make her the One's equal?

No one can be equal to the One, the One is all things - its physically impossible to equal.
Barbelo is a 'reflection' of the One, she's as close as its possible to get to being like the One.

Why is she called the first human? Its a title, like triple-male or mother-father. She has many titles which try to convey her form.
My personal interpretation is that by first human, it means the first being to occur with a distinct consciousness of its own (humans to ancient Gnostics being the only creatures they knew of with sentient consciousness). She was the first being to emanate that appeared even vaguely like we do (in mind).
Do you have an interpretation gnostic?

Foreknowledge, incorruptibility, eternal life and truth are not parts of Barbelo, she asked them to emanate from the One, but they stood beside her and praised her. They are separate 'reflections' of aspects of the divine mind.

I think thats everything. )(

 

[Buttons*]

Now that we've discussed the nature of Barbelo, I'm going to continue. I think (hope) everyone understands what's going on so far. If you're lost, pm me

This is just the longer version of this story: Barbelo asks the spirit for stuff, the spirit grants it and they become five androgynous realms. Because they're androgynous, they're male and female, making them the 10 realms, aeons, of the One. (realms = a state of being... not really a place)

Barbelo Appears (4th paragraph down in the book i have.)

"Barbelo asked the invisible virgin spirit to give her foreknowledge, and the spirit consented. When the spirit consented, foreknowledge appeared and stood by forethought. This is the one who came from the thought of the invisible virgin spirit. Foreknowledge glorified the spirit and the spirit's perfect power, Barbelo, for because of her, foreknowlege had come into being.
"She asked again to be given incorruptability, and the spirit consented. When the spirit ...."
....blah blah blah, i think you get the picture. It continues on like this until we have 5 gifts named and brought forth:

*Barbelo/ thought
*Foreknowledge
*Incorruptability
*Life eternal
*Truth

...so, what does this all mean? I'll get to it, no worries.

Barbelo Concieves (this is what EnhancedSpirit had posted once before )

"The father gazed into Barbelo with the pure light surrounding the invisible spirit, and its radiance. Barbelo concieved from it, and it produced a spark of light similar to the blessed light but not as great. This was the only child of the mother-father that had come forth, the only offspiring, the only child of the father, the pure light. The invisible birgin spirit rejoyced over the light that was produced, that came forth from the first power of the spirit's forethought, who is Barbelo..." (teehee, kinda redundant eh?) "...The spirit anointed it with its own goodness until it was perfect, with no lack of goodness since it was anointed of the goodness of the invisible spirit. The child stood in the presence of the spirit as the spirit anointed the child. As soon as the child recieved this from the spirit, it glorified the holy spirit and perfect forethought. Because of her it had come forth.
"The child asked to be given a mind as a companion to work with, and the spirit consented..."

... okay, who is this perfect child? He is anointed, so he is called Christ. (cause it means the same thing.) But do realize that this is not Yeshua. Yeshua was called Christ as a title, not a name. Yeshua had become a Christ... which is what we all can become. This is why "Christian" is a HUGE title. (It should be a big deal imo.) To say that you've been given Christ-hood... well, its just special.

Christ wanted a Mind as a companion. Think of it this way: When you become anointed, and the light is cast upon you, you aquire a mind, (you could possibly say heart/mind if that helps you understand) and you thirst for knowledge.... mind you this is not the earthly kind, but more of an inner knowing/feeling. (gnosis anyone?) ...continuing on...

"...When the invisible spirit consented, mind appeared and stood by the anointed, and glorified the spirit and Barbelo.
"All these beings came into existence in silence.
"Mind wished to create something by means of the word of the invisible spirit. Its will became a reality and appeared with mind and the light, glorifying it. Word followed will. For the anointed, the self-conceived God, created everything by the word. Life eternal, will, mind, and foreknowledge stood together and glorified the invisible spirit and Barbelo, for because of her they had come into being.
"The holy spirit brought the self-concieved divine child of itself and Barbelo to perfection, so that the child might stand before the great invisible virgin spirit as the self-concieved God, the anointed, who honored the spirit with loud acclaim. The child came forth through forethought. The invisible virgin spirit set the true, self-concieved God over everything, and caused all authority and the truth within to be subject to it, so that the child might understand everything, the one called by a name greater than every name, for that name will be told to those who are worthy of it."

I found "Word followed will" to be important. To be completely honest, i'm not sure why... but i just got this feeling when I read the phrase.... Maybe it's because our words do follow our intentions? Any thoughts on that phrase?

What is that name that we cant know unless we're worthy? *smiles* I dunno!

I was told that in order to achieve unity, the church of John and the church of Paul would have to reunite. It was explained that John held on to part of Christ's teachings and the church of Paul held on to the other part. John's teachings were passed down secretly, for the wisdom of that church was not to be known until the Spirit of Truth was revealed. Ok, anyway. Any thoughts on this?

Well, Halcyon thinks Paul was a moron. And, unfortunatley, after reading his letters, i have to agree. He never even met Yeshua, so how could he possibly have had the authority to govern any church? (not that you have to know Yeshua to lead people, but in this instance, the things that Paul says, like women not being allowed to speak in the church.... would have NEVER been allowed with yeshua around, and therefore, Paul is full of crap.)

My thoughts on this? Well, as far as a Church building or something, there are Gnostic churches... and uniting Gnostics with Christians would be pretty bad... because you have the abstract thought, and the literalist consept of it all... it wouldnt be pretty.

As far as people getting together to discuss the texts and being a "church" community to unite Paul's opinion and John's opinion, we have that on RF! The spirit has been revealed, the kingdom of the father is already here, people just dont notice it. *smiles*

 

[Ramacharaka]

Some random new poster decided to give us the history of the book of John.... so that was an utterly pointless post #50. (actually, i'm going to ask if you all could just ignore that post, please.)

My post may have been sort of unclear...I didn't say I was referring to The Apocryphon of John, but as far as I can tell that is what this topic is acutally about.

The secret book the Apocryphon of John is about is in fact the Necronomicon, also the secret book behind the book of revelations that John didn't have permission from egyptian priests to use when he misapplied it to the Roman empire and even a future he didn't create right. It is an ancient and holy book of the exorcism of dark forces 30,000 years old, including the bad early biologist that the book of Genesis was about, and is not a book of "Islamic black magic", as idiots that haven't even read it may try to make you believe.

You would know it is all they talk about in the apocryphon if you have read the necronomicon. It is actually not a secret and is available in mass market paperback officially translated from Greek by Simon who as I said published a great study of it on March 28th of this year.

John Dee, English Tudor astrologer and professor of "angel magic", kept one of the first publicly heard of copies, most likely a descendant of John trying to illumine those in the Middle Ages about what he actually wrote, tying up the concept of aeons for the wait for the return of a man who lived, Jesus the great teacher.

John in this seems to think much of the power of the egyptian priesthood, like it could come at the end of an aeon and fix everything that was bad, come back out of those far away lands it ran to after they got raided, in regards to his personal interpretation of Exodus. Well now the white people have overrun and destroyed the American continent. The priesthood was very orthodox and the Necronomicon exists to hold the dark forces at bay, and Mohammed, a later great religious teacher, implemented strict law to this effect, but there is nothing that can be done but enforce the law.

Upon reading your response to my post, saying that I gave you the history of the "book of john" is an misstatement, although the new book by simon was mentioned. I explained a basic fact to this being even a topic. It was not in any way off topic, and I cannot fathom how this could be misconstrued as being pointless.