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Discussion of the Secret Book of John
- Thread starter Buttons*
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Ramacharaka
Member
oops double post:highfive:
Ramacharaka
Member
Here I will quote the apocryphon and will state how each passage relates to the Necronomicon
"And the foundations of chaos shook"- from the apocryphon
"and the dark waters stirred"- from the Necronomicon
these passages are both repeated in the same manner.
This interesting parallel illustrates differant angles at which John and the ancient Sumarians approach things. John, as brash as he was, openly states that this corruption of a sacred walled garden near ancient egypt was the foundation of chaos on earth. The necronomicon was much more obscure about that notion, if we were to even find a copy in those times, and I think John got one because of how important the story of Christ was. This did not need to be included in his later writings and he implies that himself. Much of the rest of the apocryphon is like his typical pseudounitarian apocalypse.
"And thus the whole creation became enslaved forever, from the foundation of the world until now."
I don't see how the above quote from the Necronomicon applies to the binding of the evil sorcerors section of the Necronomicon, which fought against them. Unless John was completly brainwashed and they were waiting for Heroin to be invented.
He thinks he's so ******* smart in the apocryphon because he talks about biology constructs and the like. There are loads of people that look like what John is supposed to look (Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking, etc) but some just did it as a joke. I saw a scottish prostitute that looked like John once. I also know of an incredibly evil actual descendant with a wife named Carrie who were total IV ketamine heads, like its John's talk of robes in revelations as their last name is Dix and this relates to Fort Dix New Jersey, and the (DIA) defense intelligence agency the last democratic presidential attempt was a war hero who knew much better in regards to war what to do,and they may have been endorsing John Kerry/Edwards (edward Kelly was Dee's magical partner) by naming their kids this, but just as my dear friend, a Kelly, was haunted by what this idiot did (and Merlin did make a special book drop for Kelly once) actual descendants of John (and the Democrats sure weren't) are quite frankly infested with demons...so there goes his great biology construct philosophies. That guy should have got out of the spirituality game and let Kelly do what he was doing with Tarot.
the apocryphon says:
"a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, "Where is your master whom you followed?" And he said to him, "He has gone to the place from which he came." The Pharisee said to him, "With deception did this Nazarene deceive you (pl.), and he filled your ears with lies, and closed your hearts (and) turned you from the traditions of your fathers."
So John still thinks he's hot **** and wants to write more.
The catholic encyclopedia defines Arianism (obviously named after this priest and not the 4th century one) as A heresy which arose in the fourth century, and denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
When they deny Christ in this manner it usually involves saying things that sound mystical but are really said without belief and to destroy others. The perfect example of this is Hitler calling German people Aryan. Aryan is a language related to sanskirt, and mostly involved people from India, like Native Americans being "Indian".
the seven faced stuff was an attempt at Hindu mysticism, (part of his great unitarian epic) as some statues had several faces, but the hindu scientific and magical system involved arms snagging things more, although you could be fooled by the faces. Krishna's war is a big part of Hinduism, and John relied on the ultimate redeeming power of this too much when he created seven headed violent beasts for some war of his own design. What he was trying to go after (as with the actual necronomicon) mostly involved pathological (more than 2 faced) liars who have a tendancy to create parallel universes with their lying.
"And the foundations of chaos shook"- from the apocryphon
"and the dark waters stirred"- from the Necronomicon
these passages are both repeated in the same manner.
This interesting parallel illustrates differant angles at which John and the ancient Sumarians approach things. John, as brash as he was, openly states that this corruption of a sacred walled garden near ancient egypt was the foundation of chaos on earth. The necronomicon was much more obscure about that notion, if we were to even find a copy in those times, and I think John got one because of how important the story of Christ was. This did not need to be included in his later writings and he implies that himself. Much of the rest of the apocryphon is like his typical pseudounitarian apocalypse.
"And thus the whole creation became enslaved forever, from the foundation of the world until now."
I don't see how the above quote from the Necronomicon applies to the binding of the evil sorcerors section of the Necronomicon, which fought against them. Unless John was completly brainwashed and they were waiting for Heroin to be invented.
He thinks he's so ******* smart in the apocryphon because he talks about biology constructs and the like. There are loads of people that look like what John is supposed to look (Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking, etc) but some just did it as a joke. I saw a scottish prostitute that looked like John once. I also know of an incredibly evil actual descendant with a wife named Carrie who were total IV ketamine heads, like its John's talk of robes in revelations as their last name is Dix and this relates to Fort Dix New Jersey, and the (DIA) defense intelligence agency the last democratic presidential attempt was a war hero who knew much better in regards to war what to do,and they may have been endorsing John Kerry/Edwards (edward Kelly was Dee's magical partner) by naming their kids this, but just as my dear friend, a Kelly, was haunted by what this idiot did (and Merlin did make a special book drop for Kelly once) actual descendants of John (and the Democrats sure weren't) are quite frankly infested with demons...so there goes his great biology construct philosophies. That guy should have got out of the spirituality game and let Kelly do what he was doing with Tarot.
the apocryphon says:
"a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, "Where is your master whom you followed?" And he said to him, "He has gone to the place from which he came." The Pharisee said to him, "With deception did this Nazarene deceive you (pl.), and he filled your ears with lies, and closed your hearts (and) turned you from the traditions of your fathers."
So John still thinks he's hot **** and wants to write more.
The catholic encyclopedia defines Arianism (obviously named after this priest and not the 4th century one) as A heresy which arose in the fourth century, and denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
When they deny Christ in this manner it usually involves saying things that sound mystical but are really said without belief and to destroy others. The perfect example of this is Hitler calling German people Aryan. Aryan is a language related to sanskirt, and mostly involved people from India, like Native Americans being "Indian".
the seven faced stuff was an attempt at Hindu mysticism, (part of his great unitarian epic) as some statues had several faces, but the hindu scientific and magical system involved arms snagging things more, although you could be fooled by the faces. Krishna's war is a big part of Hinduism, and John relied on the ultimate redeeming power of this too much when he created seven headed violent beasts for some war of his own design. What he was trying to go after (as with the actual necronomicon) mostly involved pathological (more than 2 faced) liars who have a tendancy to create parallel universes with their lying.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
That's the only bit i don't agree with. You've done an excellent job introducing the next part though wibbles.Buttons* said:
I also got the feeling that "Word followed will" was important. It suggests that willing something is as important if not more important as actually doing. But it might just be that that sentence was very short and so stood out, who can say?
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
My introduction to this, as usual - Well, as a recap, the Source created Barbelo who asked for five things. She was granted these things which became 10 Aeons. She also brought forth the Incorruptable Child. He asked for a mind. (hopefully you're keeping in mind the allegory 
) Now to continue:
Luminaries are a bit difficult for me, so again, if you have questions, I'd rather you direct them to Paul/Halcyon. I'll do the best I can with this, but I guess now would be a good time to state that I'm no Gnostic scholar or anything... so whatever my opinions are on the texts are probably inaccurate. I'm mostly just writing what I feel when I read the scripture. But here's my interpretation:
The Four Luminaries
"Now from the light, which is the anointed, and from incorruptability, by the grace of the spirit, the four luminaries that derive from the self-concieved God gazed out in order to stand before it.
The three beings are
-will
-thought
-life
The four powers are
-understanding
-grace
-perception
-thoughtfulness
Grace dwells in the eternal realm of the luminary Harmozel, who is the first angel. There are three other realms with this eternal realm
-grace
-truth
-form
The second luminary is Oroiael, who has been appointed over the second eternal realm. There are three other realms with it
-insight
-perception
-memory
The third luminary is Daveithai, who has been appointed over the third eternal realm. There are three..."
... you get the picture, LOADS of repetition in these books. (because people were too dumb to get it the first time through!)
We Have the four luminaries/angels and what realms they are overseeing--
Harmozel: grace, truth, form
Oroiael: insight, perception, memory
Daveithai: understanding, love, idea
Eleleth: perfection, peace, Sophia (sophia=wisdom)
... now if you're literalist, you'll probably say that these are actual realms which are enterable... and such....
...if you're me, you'll see that the ancient who wrote this book is actually just taking the different sections of thought itself, and splitting it up into designated categories. It's easier to understand, and see things for what they are once they've been broken down. (which is why this thread exists, believe it or not!)
"There are the four luminaries that stand before the self-concieved God; these are the twelve eternal realms that stand before the child of the great self-concieved one, the anointed, by the will and the grace of the invisible spirit. The twelve realms belong to the child of the self-concieved one, and everything was established by the will of the holy spirit through the self concived one."
All twelve of those realms which are goverened by luminaries... in a sence... are within the anointed/Christ because he has a mind. Those twelve attributes are also within you because you have been anointed and therefore have a mind. This means that all of those things listed, love, Sophia, understanding, are only sections of the mind. Not that difficult. (which is really sad because I've read that passage about 6 times now and i JUST got it... i kept asking myself, "where did twelve come from?" *smacks forehead*)
There were several numbers that were VERY important to the Gnostics. They used a lot of different teachings to try to get their message across. Unfortunatley, I suck with numbers, but so far important figures would be 3, 4 and 12. (wow, never saw that before...) Maybe this would help you associate better. Three head figures at this point: One, Barbelo, Child.(3) Then there are the three beings of the luminaries: Will, Thought, Life (3) X the four powers: Perception, Thoughtfulness, Understanding, Grace (4) So we have 12.
What does that mean? I dunno, i suck with numbers... maybe i'm making a big deal over nothing....
) Now to continue:Luminaries are a bit difficult for me, so again, if you have questions, I'd rather you direct them to Paul/Halcyon. I'll do the best I can with this, but I guess now would be a good time to state that I'm no Gnostic scholar or anything... so whatever my opinions are on the texts are probably inaccurate. I'm mostly just writing what I feel when I read the scripture. But here's my interpretation:
The Four Luminaries
"Now from the light, which is the anointed, and from incorruptability, by the grace of the spirit, the four luminaries that derive from the self-concieved God gazed out in order to stand before it.
The three beings are
-will
-thought
-life
The four powers are
-understanding
-grace
-perception
-thoughtfulness
Grace dwells in the eternal realm of the luminary Harmozel, who is the first angel. There are three other realms with this eternal realm
-grace
-truth
-form
The second luminary is Oroiael, who has been appointed over the second eternal realm. There are three other realms with it
-insight
-perception
-memory
The third luminary is Daveithai, who has been appointed over the third eternal realm. There are three..."
... you get the picture, LOADS of repetition in these books. (because people were too dumb to get it the first time through!)
We Have the four luminaries/angels and what realms they are overseeing--
Harmozel: grace, truth, form
Oroiael: insight, perception, memory
Daveithai: understanding, love, idea
Eleleth: perfection, peace, Sophia (sophia=wisdom)
... now if you're literalist, you'll probably say that these are actual realms which are enterable... and such....
...if you're me, you'll see that the ancient who wrote this book is actually just taking the different sections of thought itself, and splitting it up into designated categories. It's easier to understand, and see things for what they are once they've been broken down. (which is why this thread exists, believe it or not!)
"There are the four luminaries that stand before the self-concieved God; these are the twelve eternal realms that stand before the child of the great self-concieved one, the anointed, by the will and the grace of the invisible spirit. The twelve realms belong to the child of the self-concieved one, and everything was established by the will of the holy spirit through the self concived one."
All twelve of those realms which are goverened by luminaries... in a sence... are within the anointed/Christ because he has a mind. Those twelve attributes are also within you because you have been anointed and therefore have a mind. This means that all of those things listed, love, Sophia, understanding, are only sections of the mind. Not that difficult. (which is really sad because I've read that passage about 6 times now and i JUST got it... i kept asking myself, "where did twelve come from?" *smacks forehead*)
There were several numbers that were VERY important to the Gnostics. They used a lot of different teachings to try to get their message across. Unfortunatley, I suck with numbers, but so far important figures would be 3, 4 and 12. (wow, never saw that before...) Maybe this would help you associate better. Three head figures at this point: One, Barbelo, Child.(3) Then there are the three beings of the luminaries: Will, Thought, Life (3) X the four powers: Perception, Thoughtfulness, Understanding, Grace (4) So we have 12.
What does that mean? I dunno, i suck with numbers... maybe i'm making a big deal over nothing....
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
I agree and disagree, as usual.Buttons* said:
I agree that they are aspects of the mind, i disagree that they are only aspects of the mind, i believe that they are aspects, realms and beings; all in one.
I agree that the emanations are catagories of the divine mind, but i disagree that the authors of the scripture were the only ones to do the categorising.
I disagree that we are annointed, as i believe we only become annointed once we understand/ gain Gnosis. But this is my personal belief.
gnostic
The Lost One
I understand the part where the One created Barbelo through his thought or image. I understand how the Son or Christ (some would call him Autogenes) was created, conceived from the spark of the One and Barbelo. And I understand mind or intellect was created to help the Son.
But who created the 4 luminaries and the other 12 aeons?
Was the son? Barbelo? The combination of the 2?
But who created the 4 luminaries and the other 12 aeons?
Was the son? Barbelo? The combination of the 2?
ChrisP
Veteran Member
As long as we stick with allegory of Wisdom birthing ignorance I'm fine with that. Probably needs to go further though. Say, out of ignorance, wisdom is born?Buttons* said:
To have one requires another to compare, and this is where it can get dangerous. This myth/allegory shows how desire (a attributed to Sophia (wisdom) through wanting ) blinds the senses to the dual nature of creation.
Further I would question if Sophia is True Wisdom if she did not understand this duality and created. Again perhaps she is more an example of the human way, than the the Way
PS (Sorry I'm a little behind. Slowly catching up
)
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
I don't know, have you ever heard of wisdom being generated from ignorant thought? Whereas a misunderstanding of wisdom very often leads to a new ignorance being formed.ChrisP said:
I never saw it that way.ChrisP said:
The desire Sophia had was to create something in the likeness of the One so that she could better understand the One. However she failed because she created it alone, it was entirely from her own mind.
To me it is an allegory of us 'seeing what we want to see', we try to comprehend something but if we rely only on our imaginings of what that thing is, our comprehension is ignorant. For her part Sophia realised her mistake, but many people make the same mistakes still - they see in God what they want or what they are told, not what is actually there.
:slap:ChrisP said:PS (Sorry I'm a little behind. Slowly catching up
ChrisP
Veteran Member
Ok, all these numbers and things are confusing my pea-brain
So the self birthed "not quite as bright" is aware whereas the entity from which he was birthed is not? Or is it the awareness of the Tao/gnosis? I have a problem with the greater being part of the lesser, as this would in essence make it self aware, which is where it all falls down. Completely Benign things cannot be selfaware, as this would mean motives would suddenly arise for advancement of the self.
It's just occured to me that the lesser being part of the greater is of no consequence as all things are part of the greater, but that said we have no influence over the greater. Does the lesser? If so it begins to make things a little tangled.
Regarding the luminaries, the 12 who stand before the lesser are the divided parts of the 4 who stand before the greater? That makes sense to a certain degree, but why are we dividing 4 concepts into 12 human traits? This is taking the concept of divinity into the realm of the human.
So the self birthed "not quite as bright" is aware whereas the entity from which he was birthed is not? Or is it the awareness of the Tao/gnosis? I have a problem with the greater being part of the lesser, as this would in essence make it self aware, which is where it all falls down. Completely Benign things cannot be selfaware, as this would mean motives would suddenly arise for advancement of the self.
It's just occured to me that the lesser being part of the greater is of no consequence as all things are part of the greater, but that said we have no influence over the greater. Does the lesser? If so it begins to make things a little tangled.
Regarding the luminaries, the 12 who stand before the lesser are the divided parts of the 4 who stand before the greater? That makes sense to a certain degree, but why are we dividing 4 concepts into 12 human traits? This is taking the concept of divinity into the realm of the human.
ChrisP
Veteran Member
See what you're saying, but at the same time think this is different from my point. As a concept Wisdom's very existence is relative to the existence of the concept of ignorance.Halcyon said:
I'll have to get back to ya about this bit, works nearly over and I actually have to do some (work).George said: