Discussion of the Secret Book of John

[A. Leaf]

Every emotion was given it's own manifestation. Every emotion has the potential to be harmful or helpful.

I also think from a personal point of view anyway, that the emotion becomes harmful to be overcome, to become helpful. Leading the way to the understanding of ones own innerself leading to the truth of a higher state of being, then the possibilities in the physical become awesome in the name of Love.

On the pathway to a higher state of being, bad thoughts will leap into the mind to strike you down, individuals will think of every bad thing thay have done since a child, this is where Christianity has it's advantage over other faiths. For Jesus sacraficed himself in the name of sin, so when the pathway of leading oneself to a higher sate of mind, body and soul is in the process, understand the sacrafice and ressurection of Christ and cancel any bad thought out that enters the mind with a positive love thought. e.g statue on top of rio, a tree, a mountain range, a beautifull view

 

[Buttons*]

On the pathway to a higher state of being, bad thoughts will leap into the mind to strike you down, individuals will think of every bad thing thay have done since a child, this is where Christianity has it's advantage over other faiths. For Jesus sacraficed himself in the name of sin, so when the pathway of leading oneself to a higher sate of mind, body and soul is in the process, understand the sacrafice and ressurection of Christ and cancel any bad thought out that enters the mind with a positive love thought. e.g statue on top of rio, a tree, a mountain range, a beautifull view

... yeah, but this isnt about Christianity, its about Gnosticism

 

[A. Leaf]

I thought it was about St.John?

 

[Buttons*]

I thought it was about St.John?

it is, but this is the Gnosticism forum... so it really has nothing to do with Christianity, except that Christians and Gnostics both look to John's writings....

Secret Book of John... Gnostic Bible

 

[A. Leaf]

Nice one it's nice to see St.John being appreciated after being banished and ending up in Patmos a little Greek Island..so the scriptures say

 

[Buttons*]

Nice one it's nice to see St.John being appreciated after being banished and ending up in Patmos a little Greek Island..so the scriptures say

actually, I have no idea which john this is about.... but i could care less. The writers arent what's important, its the message.... *i think we should all keep this in mind*

 

[Buttons*]

Oh boy, Ashley's going to continue! Who's excited?
*one person in an entire crowd of people cheers* "YEAAAAH!!!!"
....Well, okay then....

I really dont like these next few chapters here and there unfortunatley because they deal with mythology and i just KNOW someone's going to get stuck on it. The problem with this is that I'm not even sure if I know the allegory beyond the luminaries! (...until i get to Sophia anyway...and anything beyond Sophia as well...guess its good i made a study for this thing) ....for me it gets really sticky in the creation stories. They all differ on their presentation of the same information, but it's all for a common goal. Oh the joys of being non-literalist! *smiles*

Pigeradamas and Seth

From the foreknowledge of the perfect mind, through the expressed will of the invisible spirit and the will of the self-concieved, came the perfect human, the first revelation, the truth. The virgin spirit named the human Pigeradamas, and appointed Pigeradamas to the first eternal realm with the great self-concieved, the anointed, by the first luminary, Harmozel. Its powers dwell with it. The invisible one gave Pigeradamas an invincible power of mind.

Pigeradamas spoke and glorified and praised the invisible spirit by saying,

Because of you everything has come into being,
and to you everything will return.
I shall praise and glorify you,
the self-concieved,
the eternal realms,
the three, father, mother, child
perfect power.

Pigeradamas appointed his son Seth to the second eternal realm, before the second luminary, Oroiael.

In the third eternal realm were stationed the offspring of Seth, with the third luminary, Daveithai. The souls of the saints were stationed there.

In the fourth eternal realm were stationed the souls of those who were ignorant of the fullness. They did not repend immediately, but held out for a while and repented later. They came to be with the fourth luminary, Eleleth.

These are creatures the glorify the invisible spirit.

... so yeah, there's that...

I'll work on the explaining bit later

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

OK, my studies say that Pigeradamas is Adam. So all that other stuff happened before Adam. Is this all detail of just "one day" of creation.

Is this a detail of how complex the creation of man was? I always thought God made a little mud sculpture, and said, 'live'. But aparently there is a lot more to it than that.

 

[gnostic]

OK, my studies say that Pigeradamas is Adam. So all that other stuff happened before Adam. Is this all detail of just "one day" of creation.

He is the pre-existent Adam - before he was given an earthly physical body. The Adam you are referring to, don't exist yet. This is before the Creation. It is also the same with Seth.

Well, that's how I see it, because we have not got to the stage of our physical plane of existence yet, ie the Creation.

 

[Buttons*]

He is the pre-existent Adam - before he was given an earthly physical body. The Adam you are referring to, don't exist yet. This is before the Creation. It is also the same with Seth.

Well, that's how I see it, because we have not got to the stage of our physical plane of existence yet, ie the Creation.

thats right,

so how can you apply that to the mind?

 

[Halcyon]

OK, my studies say that Pigeradamas is Adam. So all that other stuff happened before Adam. Is this all detail of just "one day" of creation.

Is this a detail of how complex the creation of man was? I always thought God made a little mud sculpture, and said, 'live'. But aparently there is a lot more to it than that.

I guess Ash is using a different translation for this bit since i have Geradamas - Adam the stranger, rather than Pigeradamas.

Yeah gnostic is right, all this occurs before creation and outside of time.

In Gnostic thought God did not make a mud sculpture and say live, that was the Demiurge.

As for this section, i believe it talks about the creation of a spirit entity or race (rememeber than adam means humanity as a race as well as a single man) distinct enough from the One to have its own "independant" mind. But an invincible mind unlike ours which are weak.
Physical humanity is like the dodgy image of this perfect human race, this true humanity. Gnosis makes us more like the humanity above.

Notice this; "These are creatures that glorify the invisible spirit". Not glorify as in worship, but by their very existance they show the infinite power and mind of the invisible spirit. These are creatures - creations - whereas before, with Barbelo etc, they were aspects of the mind itself, totally linked in the One. These creations are of the One and are the One, but are distinct in thought and will.

 

[Buttons*]

thanks for explaining that

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I guess Ash is using a different translation for this bit since i have Geradamas - Adam the stranger, rather than Pigeradamas.

Yeah gnostic is right, all this occurs before creation and outside of time.

Yes, I read that Pigeradamas and Geradamas were the same, one is just a shortened version of the other.

And I am following along pretty well so far. What's next?

 

[Buttons*]

Yes, I read that Pigeradamas and Geradamas were the same, one is just a shortened version of the other.

And I am following along pretty well so far. What's next?

WELL... I'm gonna wait a few more days on this.... but Sophia's next!!!! *giggles* I'm stoked!!! :bounce:

 

[Buttons*]

DUUUUUDE!!! At this moment, Halcyon and I both have frubals that, when re-arranged form the pattern: 2,3,4,5,6..... THAT is frickin cool!! Oh Irony, I love thee!!!

 

[Buttons*]

WELL!!! It's taken me a while to get back to this thread. Sorry, was going through some stuff, couldnt seem to focus on anything. It's all good now though. *smiles* So be esctatic!!! (....or else....)

So most of you know that Sophia means Wisdom. Now, she's not the god of academics, cause that's superficial and just silly. Being smart or just learning stuff doest bring you closer to the Source. I also like to point out, whenever possible, that Philosophy is, if you break up the word, the Love of Sophia: phil - love, soph - wisdom. Cool huh? This is why I sometimes speculate about some of the ancient philosophers and their occational "gnostic" concepts. Inspiration comes standard... almost like the car...*shifty glance*

The Fall of Sophia

"Now, Sophia, who is the wisdom of afterthought and who constitutes an eternal realm, concieved of a thought from herself, with the conception of the invisible spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth something like herself, without the consent of the spirit, who had not given approval, without her partner and without his consideration. *(big uh-oh on Sophia's part)* The male did not give approval. She did not find her partner, and she considered this without the spirit's consent and without the knowledge of her partner. Nontheless, snhe gave birth. And because of the invncible power within her, her thought was not and idle thought. Something came out of her that was imperfect and different in appearance from her, for she had produced it without her partner. It did not resemble its mother and was misshapen."

Okay, we get the point: he didnt consent!!!! QUITE redundant, but just trying to show a point, if ya didnt catch it the first time.
Recap of the (already practically recaped) mythology: Sophia was curious, wanted to create, thought she could do it on her own, and created something ugly.

My take on it?: When people discover a first spark of inner light, they have a tendency to try and rationalize it and apply it to everything and anything that could sustain this feeling of Oneness. Sometimes when we experience wisdom, (and this is not learned wisdom, but the kind that is understood and known) we take that "inspiration" and attatch it to something physical. BAD idea. Wisdom simply IS, a "personality" of the One. People need to be in balance of themselves, meaning joining the male/female sides of ourselves and learn to be in the Source. The interesting thing is, the more we try to create, the more we mess up. (K.I.S.S.!) Sophia was curious, as wise minds generally are, and she was not balanced. Again, i'll say: think Yin/Yang.

So you may ask: Why did she create something without consulting the Light? If she was all-wise, why would she do something so ignorant?

My belief: The Source cannot tell our wisdom what to do or what not to do, it just IS, so although it COULD have corrected Sophia in her wrong doings, it loved her enough to give Sophia the choice of making decisions. This is why people can choose, and are neither perpetually wise, nor ignorant.... Any time people trick themselves into following "false" wisdom, it produces ignorance.

"When Sophia saw what her desire had produced, it changed into the figure of a snake with the face of a lion. *(not a pretty picture o.0)* Its eyes were like flashing bolts of lightening. She cast it away from her, outside that realm so that none of the immortals would see it. She had produced it ignorantly."

I actually dont like that imagry. Lions and snakes, I think, were just the biggest and baddest things that the writers of this gospel could think of. Naturally a flawed, and controlling god would have shapes familiar to us. Anyone else wanna take a swing at this part?

"She surrounded it with a bright cloud and put a throne in the middle of the cloud so that no one would see it except the holy spirit, who is called the mother of the living. She named her offspring Yaldabaoth."

I think Sophia should be the poster girl of ignorant decisions. Whenever people do something unwise, usually they try to cover it or hide it, cause they realize they made a mistake. These are human-like characteristics for a deity because, well, it's a part of us.

holy spirit, mother of the living, these would be Sophia. (because i like repeating myself *smiles*)

cool, well, enjoy, the next one will probably take me a while to do as well. Yaldabaoth is something i really dont like to waste my time studying or thinking about. You'll probably get the abridged version of that story.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

wow, buttons, you sure are raking in the frubals, you go girl . . . .

Ok, I've been looking at this alot. And I understand that the gnostics believe that the Christian God of Abraham is the demiurge, also know as Yaldoboath. And that he was evil, and he created Adam and the world as we know it.

And I can see why the gnostics would have presented the truth in this way. Man, especially Christians, often end up following the God of the material world, instead of listening to the inner calling of the One, and the loving wisdom of the Holy Spirit (which you call Sophia), they speak out of judgement and persecution, they seek material gain, over humble service, they kill and covet, and can be the most wicked among men.

I have already stated that I believe this is a VERY detailed description of our own creation. That means that we cannot ignore the Yaldoboath, because he, also is a part of us. There was a time when crippled and incomplete children were considered evil and ugly, but we know better now. It makes sense that Yaldoboath would be deformed, because of what we know from science. If Sophia had a child with one of her creations instead of her husband, it would have been a cross breed. Maybe the body of a snake and the head of a lion is a description of 'humans', we have no hair on our bodies, like a snake, but we do have lot's of hair on our heads, like a lion.

But I'd also like to voice my opinion about something. I believe that every religion is a little correct with a little bit of inaccurateness (is that a real word). I see the truth as it lies amongst these manmade words, but the parallel I see is that Sophia is the Holy Spirit (as I have for a long time believed that the Christian Holy Spirit was a female), and that the God I praise and worship is the One, the still voice, and spark within me, I see the Christ as their perfect children (this gets really hard to explain). And I see that the Yaldoboath, not as the God of Abraham, but as Beelzabub, or the Angel that fell in Christian Mythology, he was cast down to reign over the earth, just like Yaldoboath, they both became the creators of chaos, and where placed as 'captives' in the material world.

I also believe that Sophia's 'mistakes' served the higher purpose of the ONE. It says that Yaldoboath was mishapened, and deformed, but out of the chaos came a creation that was more powerful, YOU AND ME. And the ONE uses the material world for us to strengthen that power so we won't become like Yaldoboath, and will hopefully learn by Sophia's mistakes. Sometimes we have to look at the ugly and the wicked, so we will know what to avoid.

I always say that the Devil's in the details, and that when looking for the truth you should always look for patterns, not pay too much attention to the details, for they may be too numerous and diverse, appearing as chaos, step back and see the big picture and look for the things that repeat over and over again. Remember that the One God is not only unknown to humans; he is unknowable. There is no way to explain why he is unknowable, except to suggest that he is so “other” that explanations—which require making something unknown known by comparing it to something else—simply cannot work.

 

[Buttons*]

:clap

Thank you so much for that.... you're very correct *smiles*

 

[Halcyon]

For me, this myth has two principle points that are linked;

1. That wisdom can birth ignorance when misunderstood, and
2. That sometimes when we try and imagine God, we see what we want to see. (that's how i see Sophia's attempt at creation, as a way of trying to understand the One better by making something similar to the One)

But i also recognise it as part of a greater story, linking the One to the ignorance of this world by an intermediary spirit. I'd hate people to think i believed this creation myth in a totally literal sense (even if i believe in the deities involved), i recognise it is understanding written as a fairy tale.

 

[Buttons*]

For me, this myth has two principle points that are linked;

1. That wisdom can birth ignorance when misunderstood, and
2. That sometimes when we try and imagine God, we see what we want to see. (that's how i see Sophia's attempt at creation, as a way of trying to understand the One better by making something similar to the One)

But i also recognise it as part of a greater story, linking the One to the ignorance of this world by an intermediary spirit. I'd hate people to think i believed this creation myth in a totally literal sense (even if i believe in the deities involved), i recognise it is understanding written as a fairy tale.

yup!