Disproving god with the laws of logic

[Bware]

YouTube - Hysterical laugh

Lol that was my thought too!

 

[averageJOE]

I Read it, as I said I can do it too, here: Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a seaway

As I said pointless to debate this.

I invite you, Archer, to take this disscussion over to "Noah's Ark" in the Science vs. Religion section.

 

[emiliano]

Quaxotic,
Thanks for your response, it is so refreshing as I notice that we are from a different generations, I will share with you my personal walk in my faith, but keep in mind that my intention is not that of converting you to believe exactly as I do, it not easy and I happened to believe that if God calls you to it will in His time not my, and He knows how you will respond in the way that He knows you will, yet He will call you, that is the nature of His love. I am generation X both my daughters are provably older than you are, I was brought up in the RCC faith, I am Baptized and confirmed, married in the RCC church, on request from my mother I Baptized both oft them but did not forced them to go to church, or believe as I do, I did invited them when I went, this was when I became an evangelical Christian, I study the Bible with great attention on answer their questions, one day the older of them told me that that she wanted to go to my church and on that day the pastor asked me to preach a short sermon the this tiny group of English speaking people that attend our Latin American Church, I had an experience just before I got there, some how I got into a religious debated with my boss, the Nursing unit manager of the Psychiatric rehabilitation ward that I work on, the theme was forgiveness that as she say “that, that you people (bible bashers) demand, and she told me of all the suffering that a car driver under the influence of drug and alcohol has put her through, the humiliation of having people cleaning, bathing and feeding her for many month and the horrible pains that she will endure for the rest of her life and she went on to say and you do good people tell me to forgive, I said that the worst of the pains that she had where spiritual and that she could be free of them by forgiving him, she went on to tell me what she did instead, she found out where he lived and went to his home and confronted the young man and his mother and cursed, insulted them, threaten then with violence and payback. All I managed to say was nothing will be enough you cannot free yourself by this, it was time to go home (lucky me) and I terminated the discussion and went to the car to think about the planed short sermon, I thought that I didn’t do a good job in this exchange and sat down there and wept, I change my plan and preach about this story and the power of forgiveness instead, a couple of days later my daughter came to me and said, dad don’t be burden by what you see as failure on your part because you planted a seed in that woman and I pray that God makes it grow as is growing in me, my daughter is a Christian and a dedicated wife and mother and although she does not have a great church life, she remains a strong Christian, BTW I don’t have a great church life these day as I am very busy with my work and other issues of life, but my faith remains strong.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Hi Emiliano,

There is an old saying 'to err is human, to forgive is divine. I believe forgiveness is one of the greatest gifts you can give someone. That being said there are people who i cannot or have too much pride to forgive, my mother being one of them.

It must have been quite an honour to be asked to give that sermon. How was it received?

You say you and your daughter don't have a church life because you don't attend church, i would like to share some thoughts i remember from sunday school. The first is you don't need a church to worship god, he is everywhere you just need to pray and he will here you. The second one is that to get into heaven you must live a good christian life, one of my sunday school teachers once said there is two main commandments 1. Love thy god and 2. Love thy neighbour. If you love your neighbour you will not break any commandments against them.

I would like to pull the no sex before marriage commandment out of that list, as i see very little harm in having safe, consentual sex with someone you love.

Thankyou for sharing your story with me as i have come to see you from a different perspective.

-Q

 

[emiliano]

Hi Quaxotic,
To be brief and get onto answering other questions that you expressed in your previous response and tight them to the topic at hand I’ll just say the it went pretty good as I was asked to participate on a radio program that the Church had for evangelization I was doing a community radio in Spanish at the municipality where I reside, at that time we had small group of people that came to our church that did not speak Spanish and my young pastor managed to attract a English speaking pastor with some sixty year of experience that was mostly teaching at this time, he asked me to assist him and it was indeed a privilege, an honor and learnt a lot, unfortunately problems arose between the pastor about seniority and the church was practically destroyed by this, they splinted into two small fraction that lost more new members than it could attract.

Actually my parents forced me to go to church from preschool through year 7. They never attended church themselves, kinda hard to believe in something when your parents don't. They sent me to a christian high school. In high school i made a conscious effort to believe in god so i could fit in with all the other kids. It did not work i just could not believe, because i have questions and nobody has ever been able to answer them in any way that has made sense.

I take this as parent wanting to give you freedom in your final choice of religious walk, perhaps it was for the best, we parents cannot believe for you, it is you that must find the way even if it not our own, it wont happen or last if you do it to please us or other kids (our peers). I don’t know if you have encounter the multitude of preacher of skepticsm hell bent on destroying the little faith that you manage to rise on your own effort. IMO there are no more committed religious group than atheist in their preaching, it is a religion and a religion of atheist state.

Now you tell me that i have to believe in god before god will reveal himself to me (please correct me if i'm misunderstanding you on this). I have a problem with this. How do i know that the god you believe in is the real god, there are many different religions out there that say their god is the real god. How do i know that any revelation from god is not brought on by some kind of belief induced hallucination, or a belief induced interpretation of revelation from some other higher power. I am fascinated by shamanism as well and have had an out of body experience, i question this experience as well. What a wonderful feeling to be free of ones earthly body

Staying on course with this little rant, if you don’t believe that there is such thing as a God. How are you going to meditate, contemplate and reason on what I can tell about the God that I believe in? If you start from the point of view that my God does not exist where can we go? I will answer some of your interesting questions on a later post. Thank you for your responses.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I take this as parent wanting to give you freedom in your final choice of religious walk, perhaps it was for the best, we parents cannot believe for you, it is you that must find the way even if it not our own, it wont happen or last if you do it to please us or other kids (our peers).

This theory only holds true if my parents had shown me different religions. I was never taken to a buddhist temple, i never even heard the word pagan till i started dating one at the age of 19.

I don’t know if you have encounter the multitude of preacher of skepticsm hell bent on destroying the little faith that you manage to rise on your own effort. IMO there are no more committed religious group than atheist in their preaching, it is a religion and a religion of atheist state.

I'm a free thimker. I look. i listen, i ask questions and dont stop till i get the answers. If i was this easily persuadable i would be attending church every sunday, because that was the only religious views i was shown till i was in my late teens. I can make my own mind up about things.

Staying on course with this little rant, if you don’t believe that there is such thing as a God. How are you going to meditate, contemplate and reason on what I can tell about the God that I believe in? If you start from the point of view that my God does not exist where can we go?

If i start with the assumption that god does exist where can i go but to god it just rules out all the other possibilities. Why do i have to believe in something before it can exist. Since i started off being subjected to christian belief you cannot say i started off with the POV that god didn't exist. Starting off with anything but a blank slate taints the process.

Do you have any answers to my questions that don't require me to believe first?

I will answer some of your interesting questions on a later post. Thank you for your responses.

I'm looking forward to it.

-Q

 

[emiliano]

Quaxotic,

I would like to share some thoughts i remember from Sunday school. The first is you don't need a church to worship god, he is everywhere you just need to pray and he will here you.

Can’t argue with that God is everywhere, but that is not the only reason why we gather in a Church as your story goes on: The second one is that to get into heaven you must live a good Christian life, one of my Sunday school teachers once said there are two main commandments 1. Love thy god and 2. Love thy neighbour. If you love your neighbour you will not break any commandments against them. Now Church life is that, you go there to serve your neighbor, to pray for one another, to forgive one another, where do you find your neighbor?

I would like to pull the no sex before marriage commandment out of that list, as i see very little harm in having safe, consentual sex with someone you love.

Would you, why? God has provided you with a way that He approve and bless greatly, it is call holy matrimony, why do you want to improve the institution that the infinite wise creator of everything that there is has designed and instituted? :foot:How much would your scheme benefit a woman? What if you want to try others before making a commitment to one? And you see no harm done to her if you decide that she was not the one? How many other tries could an afortunete woman have before one find that she is the one?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Would you, why?

Because all the others except for the 'love thy god' are there to stop people from mistreating each other.

God has provided you with a way that He approve and bless greatly, it is call holy matrimony, why do you want to improve the institution that the infinite wise creator of everything that there is has designed and instituted?

This is a matter of perception on your behalf so i will leave it alone.

:foot:How much would your scheme benefit a woman?

She would get the exact same benefits as i would. Affection, attention, affirmation, orgasms.

What if you want to try others before making a commitment to one?

Well if you are with someone and you want to commit her, then you have to forgo the other experiences. It's a trade-off for that commitment.

And you see no harm done to her if you decide that she was not the one?

It would have the same effect on me if she felt i wasn't the one.

How many other tries could an afortunete woman have before one find that she is the one?

As many as it takes just like i will have to.

It would seem to me that you see male sexuality and female sexuality differently. I guess this is a by product of your beliefs. This madonna/whore concept that seems to be so prevalent in abrahamic theology is sickening and degrading to women

All things being equal women are allowed to have sex as much as men, and shes allowed to enjoy sex ALOT, shes allowed to want sex as well, without feeling like shes dirty. It doesn't make her a **** any more than a guy who has the same amount of sex.

Sure you could mention how a women will become looser, however this is nothing pelvic floor exercises cannot fix.

I'm sorry if this is a bit harsh, i feel very strongly on this issue.

-Q

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

I should have worded that Abrahamic religion

I don't see a difference for my question

Interesting claim.
I wonder how you come to that sort of idea.

 

[emiliano]

Quaxotic,
I like to think that you are as good as you painted yourself in this piece, but and as told you I am from an earlier generation, I’ve been there and done that.

Because all the others except for the 'love thy god' are there to stop people from mistreating each other.

This is about to give in to lust that got very little to do with love; it doesn’t cut the muster and smell pretty foul. I wasn’t born yesterday, what do you take me for?

She would get the exact same benefits as i would. Affection, attention, affirmation, orgasms.

Wow! What an ego trip.

It would have the same effect on me if she felt i wasn't the one.

When a woman gives in, she does because she loves, unless this generation has twisted things in such a way that females are the predators, a trait of the male due to hormonal influences.

As many as it takes just like i will have to.

There you go again; this thing is always initiated by the male in our species we are not that distorted yet, that in spite of some great efforts.

It would seem to me that you see male sexuality and female sexuality differently. I guess this is a by product of your beliefs. This madonna/whore concept that seems to be so prevalent in abrahamic theology is sickening and degrading to women

And your interest is the human mind? They are competently different and governed by antagonist hormone, males conquer and submit females submit and hope.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I'm out.

Your views on womens sexuality whilst not suprising for a christian is sickening.

I hope storm sees this thread im sure she'd have something interesting to say.

-Q

 

[emiliano]

Quaxotic.

I would agree with this statement, but i would like to go further and theorise that the search for a god is a search for some kind of immortality, a means to make life mean more just just existing. A deist will search for this immortality through a god and some form of afterlife. Others will search for this immortality through the passing on of ones genetic code. I myself search for immortality by helping people, when i die i want to know that i have done more than just looked after me and mine. I'm not smart enough to be a doctor and i've always been interested in the human mind so the way i plan on helping people is through psychology.

I agreed with this been a search for something. What makes you think that this is a search for immortality? I see it as search for purpose, a creature as complex as a human, with the power to reason, research, theorize, imagine and travel in his mind a marvel of design must have higher purpose than just 70-80 years. Psychology helps people to understand and accept the way they feel things all around themselves, a desist look for purpose, why am I the way I am?
A desist believe that He/she is God’s creation and thus the answer in God.
From what I have observed the major obstacles to faith is that God demands a search applying his standards (basically two of them) and that whatever does not complied must bring repentance and change, this is the hardest ask because there is always the” it is not my fault that God created me with this faults” it is other people’s faults, like the allegory in Eden Adam blamed the woman and God for giving her to him.

Gen 3:12
Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."
​

 

[Storm]

I'm out.

Your views on womens sexuality whilst not suprising for a christian is sickening.

I hope storm sees this thread im sure she'd have something interesting to say.

-Q

I missed it.

 

[Troublemane]

I missed it.

last line on the bottom of page 67, if you really wanna know.

however, as to the OP, i think logic can prove the existence of god, but whatever you assign as your critieria has to be supportable by evidence, thats the part people are missing, i think. :angel2:

 

[Storm]

males conquer and submit females submit and hope.

:biglaugh:

I would argue, but it's emiliano. What can you expect?

 

[freethinker44]

last line on the bottom of page 67, if you really wanna know.

however, as to the OP, i think logic can prove the existence of god, but whatever you assign as your critieria has to be supportable by evidence, thats the part people are missing, i think. :angel2:

Logic can prove the existence of god. The proponents of TAG made a pretty good argument of that, the problem is they don't follow the logic to its conclusion, they stop when they have the proof they are looking for, but if you follow it through, I think it becomes clear that an absolute power cannot exist.

 

[Archer]

Logic can prove the existence of god. The proponents of TAG made a pretty good argument of that, the problem is they don't follow the logic to its conclusion, they stop when they have the proof they are looking for, but if you follow it through, I think it becomes clear that an absolute power cannot exist.

I must agree with that assessment. The logic presented in the argument is circular ie. no beginning or end. If the question is posed logic would dictate some sort of answer but all I got out of it was the question.

 

[emiliano]

:biglaugh:

I would argue, but it's emiliano. What can you expect?

But it is a biological fact, it is call male traits and female traits and is governed by chemicals called hormones, if this is uncheck we are no better than irrational brutes acting solely on instants, I see no reason to change our Christian tenets designed to control sexual lust just to accommodate the uncontrollable horny individual, do you? So I am sorry but in all honesty and although it may hurt some of you, I must say that the reason that you don’t know God is because you are not one of His children, and my God is not your God and He does not want you at this stage. Don’t blame your parents or others for it. And it OK I have no further interest in your opinions, thank for your response.

 

[emiliano]

CHAP. 24.--THE SECONDARY CAUSES OF EVIL ARE IGNORANCE AND LUST.

This is the first evil that befell the intelligent creation--that is, its first privation of good. Following upon this crept in, and now even in opposition to man's will, ignorance of duty, and lust after what is hurtful: and these brought in their train error and suffering, which, when they are felt to be imminent, produce that shrinking of the mind which is called fear. Further, when the mind attains the objects of its desire, however hurtful or empty they may be, error prevents it from perceiving their true nature, or its perceptions are overborne by a diseased appetite, and so it is puffed up with a foolish joy. From these fountains of evil, which spring out of defect rather than superfluity, flows every form of misery that besets a rational nature. Augustine's ENCHIRIDION,
http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/augenchiridion/enchiridion24-53.html

 

[Archer]

But it is a biological fact, it is call male traits and female traits and is governed by chemicals called hormones, if this is uncheck we are no better than irrational brutes acting solely on instants, I see no reason to change our Christian tenets designed to control sexual lust just to accommodate the uncontrollable horny individual, do you? So I am sorry but in all honesty and although it may hurt some of you, I must say that the reason that you don’t know God is because you are not one of His children, and my God is not your God and He does not want you at this stage. Don’t blame your parents or others for it. And it OK I have no further interest in your opinions, thank for your response.

CHAP. 24.--THE SECONDARY CAUSES OF EVIL ARE IGNORANCE AND LUST.

This is the first evil that befell the intelligent creation--that is, its first privation of good. Following upon this crept in, and now even in opposition to man's will, ignorance of duty, and lust after what is hurtful: and these brought in their train error and suffering, which, when they are felt to be imminent, produce that shrinking of the mind which is called fear. Further, when the mind attains the objects of its desire, however hurtful or empty they may be, error prevents it from perceiving their true nature, or its perceptions are overborne by a diseased appetite, and so it is puffed up with a foolish joy. From these fountains of evil, which spring out of defect rather than superfluity, flows every form of misery that besets a rational nature. Augustine's ENCHIRIDION,
http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/augenchiridion/enchiridion24-53.html

Nice but since you mention it, that is what is wrong with the world today!!!!! We have more evolved monkeys around then created beings.