Disproving god with the laws of logic

[Venatoris]

"Something" created the singularity.

The expansion would be an ever increasing hollow centered explosion...without rotation. But of course "Something" set the rotation into play....before the expansion could begin.

The effect, clearly seen by observation, is the rotation of the all things this universe (one word) contains.
The Cause...of course ...is God.

Something must have created the universe? Nothing could possibly exist without a creator. I can follow this but since the topic of this thread is logic I must ask why it is impossible to believe the the universe exists without divine intervention but god has always existed. If everything needs a creator this applies to god as well. You can't say the universe can't exist without god and in the same breath say god has always been. Who created god? For that matter you would need a god to create a god but if you already have a god capable of creating another, doing so would be superfluous. Does anyone else see the paradoxical spiral beginning to form here?

 

[McBell]

Does anyone else see the paradoxical spiral beginning to form here?

Yes I do.
And some of the mental gymnastics used to "rationalize" it are worthy of being an Olympic event.

 

[dogsgod]

I reiterate....cause and effect work quite well.
The singularity would be at rest if not acted upon.
"Something" created the singularity.

The expansion would be an ever increasing hollow centered explosion...without rotation. But of course "Something" set the rotation into play....before the expansion could begin.

The effect, clearly seen by observation, is the rotation of the all things this universe (one word) contains.
The Cause...of course ...is God.

When considering the words..."I am!"....the universe is the result of that declaration.

Take away the universe and the declaration fails.

Take away the universe and then you can say...He does not exist.
But then...you wouldn't be there to say so.

Yes, that was a wonderful story, but it's Monday morning now, we have to get back to reality, some of us have to work.

 

[emiliano]

It's called cognitive dissonance, people will justify and rationalize beliefs when presented with contradictions to them instead of changing their minds.

The only way anyone will accept they are wrong is if they come to that conclusion theirself.

Isn’t that exactly the case with atheist? Shame, rejection, isolation produces anxiety, resentment, fear, etc.
We all know that there are things unseen by all that do exist. Most anti-religious folks that I’ve known are damaged goods, rejected from association with religious folks because their life styles and refusal to change.
On top of that atheism promeces to make a clever monkey.

 

[emiliano]

Everyone has them planted; the problem I see is that of someone trying to jam their own fruit down someone else's throat.

Which reminds me, it's time for breakfast.

So true! Have you noticed that the best at at this type of things are atheist and diviant?

 

[dogsgod]

Yes, those pesky little atheists, I've heard rumours about them and none of them are good. How can they not believe theists?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

LOL

For congnitive dissonance to work there has to be some form a proof or fact that they are denying.

As an atheist i have not come across any proof or fact for the evidence of a deity to cognitively dissonate.

-Q

 

[freethinker44]

LOL

For congnitive dissonance to work there has to be some form a proof or fact that they are denying.

As an atheist i have not come across any proof or fact for the evidence of a deity to cognitively dissonate.

-Q

It's just the opposite actually.

From how I understood it, cognitive dissonace is subscribing to an idea and closing your mind to any evidence against it in favor of wildly justifying and rationalizing to force the concept to work. Or you could call it faith.

 

[Vile Atheist]

C'mon. Use your logic, kids.

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Please note that the title of this thread is Disproving god with the laws of logic, not "Depressing the mods by creating a lot of unnecessary work". Please stay on-topic and off of each others cases.
​

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Something must have created the universe? Nothing could possibly exist without a creator. I can follow this but since the topic of this thread is logic I must ask why it is impossible to believe the the universe exists without divine intervention but god has always existed. If everything needs a creator this applies to god as well. You can't say the universe can't exist without god and in the same breath say god has always been. Who created god? For that matter you would need a god to create a god but if you already have a god capable of creating another, doing so would be superfluous. Does anyone else see the paradoxical spiral beginning to form here?

Some people (I'm not quite this bold) actually follow your argument exactly like you've laid it out. I believe there are some LDS that believe that God was created by a god, who was created by a god, who was created by a god, etc, etc, with no beginning and no end. Your question as to why? Well, we already have people don't we, why do they keep making more? It's how we're made, we reproduce after our own kind. Some would say "gods" are the same way, reproducing after their kind. Some would say we are their potential offspring.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

It's just the opposite actually.

From how I understood it, cognitive dissonace is subscribing to an idea and closing your mind to any evidence against it in favor of wildly justifying and rationalizing to force the concept to work. Or you could call it faith.

Cognitive dissonance is the "unpleasant sensation" associated with holding two mutually exclusive ideas. It has nothing to do with "closing your mind" to evidence. There are some schools that hold that there is a similar "sensation" associated with having a belief which runs counter to experience, but I am not sure exactly what this means unless one is talking about brain-washing and resisting brain-washing.

MTF

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Something must have created the universe? Nothing could possibly exist without a creator. I can follow this but since the topic of this thread is logic I must ask why it is impossible to believe the the universe exists without divine intervention but god has always existed. If everything needs a creator this applies to god as well. You can't say the universe can't exist without god and in the same breath say god has always been. Who created god? For that matter you would need a god to create a god but if you already have a god capable of creating another, doing so would be superfluous. Does anyone else see the paradoxical spiral beginning to form here?

The universe which is material and imperfect is not capable of being eternal. Reality might very well be perfect (in totality) and thus may be eternal. Most people's conception of "God" presumes perfection which is eternal (it was never created and will never cease to be), thus "God" cannot be created (it has always been and exceeds the capability of anything except itself to change).


Cause and Effect has a logical limit. Either cause and effect goes on ad-infinitum in which case Reality is perfect and infinite or it ceases and that requires a creator. Stephen Hawking stated that a limited reality/universe requires a creator some 15 years ago...

MTF

 

[Beaudreaux]

Isn’t that exactly the case with atheist? Shame, rejection, isolation produces anxiety, resentment, fear, etc.
We all know that there are things unseen by all that do exist. Most anti-religious folks that I’ve known are damaged goods, rejected from association with religious folks because their life styles and refusal to change.
On top of that atheism promeces to make a clever monkey.

Wow! How did you learn all this information about atheists?

 

[freethinker44]

Cognitive dissonance is the "unpleasant sensation" associated with holding two mutually exclusive ideas. It has nothing to do with "closing your mind" to evidence. There are some schools that hold that there is a similar "sensation" associated with having a belief which runs counter to experience, but I am not sure exactly what this means unless one is talking about brain-washing and resisting brain-washing.

MTF

Not that I care to argue semantics, but closing your mind to a new idea because it conflicts with an old idea is exactly what cognitive dissonance is. That unpleasant feeling is the conflict so people are moved to reconcile the conflict by either accepting a new idea or rationalizing an old one.

Quoted from wikipedia definition:
A powerful cause of dissonance is an idea in conflict with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one's choices. A person who just spent too much money on a new car might decide that the new vehicle is much less likely to break down than his or her old car. This belief may or may not be true, but it would likely reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.

Note the words outlined in red.

 

[emiliano]

The universe which is material and imperfect is not capable of being eternal. Reality might very well be perfect (in totality) and thus may be eternal. Most people's conception of "God" presumes perfection which is eternal (it was never created and will never cease to be), thus "God" cannot be created (it has always been and exceeds the capability of anything except itself to change).
Cause and Effect has a logical limit. Either cause and effect goes on ad-infinitum in which case Reality is perfect and infinite or it ceases and that requires a creator. Stephen Hawking stated that a limited reality/universe requires a creator some 15 years ago...
MTF

The concept is that God is perfect lacking in nothing as goodness and perfection,as far perfection goes, also the concept of needing no change is that God is a spirit (immaterial) and therefore free from corruption, deterioration or change thus eternal and not affected by time.

 

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by ManTimeForgot
Cognitive dissonance is the "unpleasant sensation" associated with holding two mutually exclusive ideas. It has nothing to do with "closing your mind" to evidence. There are some schools that hold that there is a similar "sensation" associated with having a belief which runs counter to experience...


Not that I care to argue semantics, but closing your mind to a new idea because it conflicts with an old idea is exactly what cognitive dissonance is. That unpleasant feeling is the conflict so people are moved to reconcile the conflict by either accepting a new idea or rationalizing an old one.

You are both correct.

 

[freethinker44]

The concept is that God is perfect lacking in nothing as goodness and perfection,as far perfection goes, also the concept of needing no change is that God is a spirit (immaterial) and therefore free from corruption, deterioration or change thus eternal and not affected by time.

Any would being who lived as the one you describe would cancel out its own existence. The god you describe can only exist if it is created and kept within the minds of men.

 

[Thief]

Hey Venatoris....
The spiral is precisely the point I was trying to convey throughout this entire thread.
Thank you for noticing.

The initial premise is to disprove God with logic.
This is illogical from the beginning.

Faith by definition requires no proving.
For every instance offered....the source is God.
The big bang, evolution, light, the soul,etc.,etc.,etc.
Each offering made I attribute to God.
I need not prove it.

As for the spiral....look up.
The entire universe turns, spins, obits, and spirals.

The big bang...the initial explosion...would have been an ever increasing hollow sphere of energy and mass.
However, between the snap of the fingers of the Almighty God...the spiral was made.

It is the movement....the spiral...that is the proving of God.
(cause and effect)

 

[freethinker44]

You don't need to offer proof of faith but when you make a claim about something you are taking faith out of the equation. So basically, if you offer faith as proof, then you need to prove it.