Divination - Not What You Think

[Riverwolf]

Following the wiki link, it states it is practiced all over the globe. Is it not ?

Did you even read the rest of my post?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

But he mentioned your reply, as well as him viewing the typical definition to be sort of a stereotypical one. I just don't see how he can remove Supernatural and future telling from the definition because of his own personal feelings.

As far as I can tell, Quintessence didn't "remove" either, but simply noted that the existing definitions by focusing on those aspects put limits on what people actually do in their practices. That is, Q's definition is much broader and more appropriate than the limited definitions provided in the dictionary.

Misconception #1: Divination is about predicting the future.
In fairness, divination can be and has been used for this purpose. Skeptics are often critical of divination because they equate it with fortune telling. However, the uses for divination are hardly confined to this purpose.

Misconception #2: Divination involves the supernatural.
As with the first misconception, a bit of fairness is in order here. To some people who practice divination, they believe there is something supernatural about it, or some supernatural power involved. However, at the end of the day, there are multiple models to explain how divination works, and only some of them invoke supernatural explanations.

Pretty clear that predicting the future and the supernatural CAN be part of the definition for some people, but that overall, those are only limited aspects of divination. Edit: and thus, the dictionary definitions and popular portrayals are "misconceptions."

Is your using dowsing rods "foretelling the future" or "fortune telling?" Is it done through "supernatural" means?

 

[Quintessence]

Thank you for that last post, @beenherebeforeagain. I was just about to reiterate some of that after reading the arguments in this thread. I'm not proposing an either-or here folks, it's a both-and. It might also be worthwhile to reiterate this part, too:

... What standard dictionaries do is reflect the common parlance. In that respect, the dictionary is absolutely right to define divination in this fashion. However, because standard dictionaries are benched in common parlance, they do not represent specialists, or the "industry insiders" so to speak. In the case of divination, a standard dictionary simply does not reflect the range of ways in which the term is understood by actual diviners involved in the New Age, Pagan, and occult communities. ... This problem happens in the sciences all the time, too; no standard dictionary definition of scientific terms is going to well-represent how that term is understood in the sciences For that, we need to go to subject dictionaries or specialist dictionaries, and better yet, to things like encyclopedias journals, and the literature straight from the horse's mouth.

Basically, if someone's understanding of divination is benchmarked to a standard dictionary, that's... well... very limited. Contemporary perspectives on divination by people who actually practice are more varied than a standard dictionary accounts for, which in turn leads to misconceptions. Misconceptions like divination has to involve prognostication or has to invoke a supernaturalistic worldview. Divination requires neither, but it may involve both.

For a moment, a thought experiment. Pretend you're an academic studying this cultural phenomena called 'divination.' Presume that the definition of divination must be "predicting the future by supernatural means." Next, presume that you reject the supernatural. As you observe people practicing divination, where does that leave it? After all the mystical malarky is stripped away, what are the people who practice this actually doing if it is interpreted from a non-supernaturalistic, non-mystical perspective? What function is it serving in their lives, or in their culture? Taking it a step further, can those worthwhile functions be duplicated or retained by going through the same motions only with a worldview that rejects supernaturalism and prognostication?

I've found the answer to that last question to be very firm "yes!" One can take a mystical view of divination or a non-mystical one. Both of them work, and there are contemporary practitioners that represent both perspectives.

 

[Quintessence]

How do you define divination and how do you set that apart as another word or practice instead of seeing it as another form of spell craft that does pretty much the same thing: communication, prayer (however defined), and gathering information for application?

What makes divination different from spell craft?

Funny you mention that, because I do actually regard divination to be a subtype of spellcraft or magic.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

In this case, the modern connotation of the word has nothing to do with the historical connotation and while revisionism is all the rage it is what it is. That term doesn't mean what the dictionary would say so it's wrong -- it's written by someone with no understanding of it, and like all second-handed knowledge it is garbage. They did what so many other reference books do and gloss over a subject with not so much as one real inquiry.

Similar issues can be found with the definitions of necromancy, magic, occult, and more. Really, the dictionary is just not credible past a very topical and mundane understanding of a matter. In my years of working with these types of experiences I can tell you that any book that wasn't about 100 years old is just complete junk in regard to these subjects, and do not reflect any knowledge of people who practice them. They're mostly full of assumptions and 3rd party commentary.

The dictionaries where not written on a whim.

The term reflects the modern English langaue and the words historical roots.

MODERN occultist have very different meanings for these words than what we can see of their classical counterparts.

 

[outhouse]

Is your using dowsing rods "foretelling the future" or "fortune telling?" Is it done through "supernatural" means?

I would say no. I'm not predicting anything, just stating where to drill a hole based on a guess.

I'm not trying to define how why or where, I just know it works some of the time. logged at 86% accuracy over a decade.

I think it would get into the supernatural if I tried to explain it, I cant, nor do I want to try

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I would say no. I'm not predicting anything, just stating where to drill a hole based on a guess.

I'm not trying to define how why or where, I just know it works some of the time. logged at 86% accuracy over a decade.

I think it would get into the supernatural if I tried to explain it, I cant, nor do I want to try

Same here; cool that you've kept record of your dowsing. Since I do it only occasionally as a hobby I'm really not sure what's "working" or not, but it looks like you've got a pretty good record! The couple of people I know who have used it professionally seem to have similar success rates, although I don't know if they really keep records or not. I think eventually someone will figure it out, but right now I can't imagine any geologist or hydrologist asking for a grant to study it, even if they use it every day themselves.

 

[outhouse]

Same here; cool that you've kept record of your dowsing. Since I do it only occasionally as a hobby I'm really not sure what's "working" or not, but it looks like you've got a pretty good record! The couple of people I know who have used it professionally seem to have similar success rates, although I don't know if they really keep records or not. I think eventually someone will figure it out, but right now I can't imagine any geologist or hydrologist asking for a grant to study it, even if they use it every day themselves.

Its funny that same percentage was about identical for all the drilling companies in this area.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Its funny that same percentage was about identical for all the drilling companies in this area.

Yeah, but are they dowsing, or using science?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Quintessence off topic. You're male? (reading post 100) If so, I had you in a females voice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As far as I can tell, Quintessence didn't "remove" either, but simply noted that the existing definitions by focusing on those aspects put limits on what people actually do in their practices. That is, Q's definition is much broader and more appropriate than the limited definitions provided in the dictionary.


Pretty clear that predicting the future and the supernatural CAN be part of the definition for some people, but that overall, those are only limited aspects of divination. Edit: and thus, the dictionary definitions and popular portrayals are "misconceptions."

Is your using dowsing rods "foretelling the future" or "fortune telling?" Is it done through "supernatural" means?

Can it be possible to go so far from a definition of a word, given divination is pretty broad, to render the word really useless?

There has to be some qualifiers for all words to mean what they mean even if we have different interpretations of them. When I read the OP (@Quintessence), I assumed there is a personal definition he has for divination and that the misconceptions are not exactly what he interprets the word to mean.

However, spiritual words are mostly personal interpretations. So, can we get so broad with these spiritual words to render them useless?

 

[outhouse]

Yeah, but are they dowsing, or using science?

Sometimes both.


We did 300 acres once using only science [geology] and aerial stereo pictures, and did 13 holes with no water. The guy said you did not see this, popped out witching rods goofier then you ever seen. Hit water at 30'.

Personally I have witched a line and drilled down and the water was coming in exactly the way the line was drawn about 40' down. Later I asked the boss about where the line was and its direction since he witched it first and the cat making the road took his flag out. he describes the same exact line in direction as well.


I did ask once if water was ever hit on a site that did not witch, and no one could answer, they always take a lucky guess over nothing.

 

[Mindmaster]

The dictionaries where not written on a whim.

The term reflects the modern English langaue and the words historical roots.

MODERN occultist have very different meanings for these words than what we can see of their classical counterparts.

Example time:

From Wikipedia on Magic:

Necromancy is a practice which claims to involve the summoning of, and conversation with, spirits of the dead. This is sometimes done simply to commune with deceased loved ones; it can also be done to gain information from the spirits, as a type of divination; or to command the aid of those spirits in accomplishing some goal, as part of casting a spell.

Words have implied meaning... This "Magic" article is denoted as "paranormal" at the top, and the first sentence says, "claims." Now, while that might be no big deal to you it implies that people who do magic are simple crazy or deluded. It is directly insulting, and it is somewhat akin to calling natives "savages" in old times and implying that their ideas are complete fantasy without actually understanding them in an internal way. These wordings are dismissive, or indicate a lack of understanding or both. Ask yourself the simple question, would someone bother to do necromancy if some part of it didn't work? Would it be here since the time of the ancients if something of it didn't happen? This is the fundamental difference between being a truly rational person, and a pseudo-rational person who overly leans on references to come to a basic idea of the subject. You can use these references to gain a basic understanding if you look out for these "jab words", stay unbiased, and find more information on your own -- BUT THAT IS THE LIMIT OF IT. After that basic notion, that's all they are good for.

Unfortunately for you, and most others.... This is a direct experience situation -- without doing the method yourself in earnest there is just simply no way for you to know.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Example time:

From Wikipedia on Magic:



Words have implied meaning... This "Magic" article is denoted as "paranormal" at the top, and the first sentence says, "claims." Now, while that might be no big deal to you it implies that people who do magic are simple crazy or deluded. It is directly insulting, and it is somewhat akin to calling natives "savages" in old times and implying that their ideas are complete fantasy without actually understanding them in an internal way. These wordings are dismissive, or indicate a lack of understanding or both. Ask yourself the simple question, would someone bother to do necromancy if some part of it didn't work? Would it be here since the time of the ancients if something of it didn't happen? This is the fundamental difference between being a truly rational person, and a pseudo-rational person who overly leans on references to come to a basic idea of the subject. You can use these references to gain a basic understanding if you look out for these "jab words", stay unbiased, and find more information on your own -- BUT THAT IS THE LIMIT OF IT. After that basic notion, that's all they are good for.

Unfortunately for you, and most others.... This is a direct experience situation -- without doing the method yourself in earnest there is just simply no way for you to know.

Rape has been here since the beginning and people still do it, human sacrifice has and it is still done in some places, animal cruelty has and it still happens.

Implying I have not done research into magickal practices or tried them myself.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Can it be possible to go so far from a definition of a word, given divination is pretty broad, to render the word really useless?

There has to be some qualifiers for all words to mean what they mean even if we have different interpretations of them. When I read the OP (@Quintessence), I assumed there is a personal definition he has for divination and that the misconceptions are not exactly what he interprets the word to mean.

However, spiritual words are mostly personal interpretations. So, can we get so broad with these spiritual words to render them useless?

Yeah, I personally think many of our words are for all intents and purposes, useless, because of drift in the language--it happens in all languages, and English is worse than most because English-speakers have absorbed and adopted and otherwise picked up so many words from different languages that we have too many ways to say some things. That's really not bad, it makes it possible to have the incredible variance in our literature, and we can stretch the language to include specialized uses for science, medicine, technology, art, spirituality and so on. But that ends up meaning that how some people learn and use words will be very different from how others learn and use words.

The way to resolve these conflicting uses, in my opinion, is not to demand that all usage conform to the dictionary, but to allow each other to explain how we as individuals and members of specialized groups who use the words differently than the dictionary definitions. It really takes very little to understand how another person can understand a word differently, and accept that difference, without having to adopt it as our own understanding of the word.

For me, the problem arises when someone (and I've been guilty of this myself) insists that someone else must conform to the dictionary definition of a word, or must conform to some other understanding of a word despite the dictionary definition. We seem to have an awful lot of discussions/debates on this board of this nature, and sad to say, I've been involved in quite a few of them myself.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Sometimes both.


We did 300 acres once using only science [geology] and aerial stereo pictures, and did 13 holes with no water. The guy said you did not see this, popped out witching rods goofier then you ever seen. Hit water at 30'.

Personally I have witched a line and drilled down and the water was coming in exactly the way the line was drawn about 40' down. Later I asked the boss about where the line was and its direction since he witched it first and the cat making the road took his flag out. he describes the same exact line in direction as well.


I did ask once if water was ever hit on a site that did not witch, and no one could answer, they always take a lucky guess over nothing.

Oh for a double-blind experimental setup...

 

[Quintessence]

@Quintessence off topic. You're male? (reading post 100) If so, I had you in a females voice.

Don't worry about it. I'll respond to either. Had I been given a choice of sex before I was born, I definitely would have chosen male. Being a human female is, at best, a physiological inconvenience. Jokingly, we could say I'm a gay man trapped in a woman's body. Or perhaps a sentient, mobile form of plant life trapped in a mammalian body.

Can it be possible to go so far from a definition of a word, given divination is pretty broad, to render the word really useless?

Oh, definitely. That said, in my experience the understanding of divination described in the OP is quite common among the communities that practice in the modern day. Even outside of that, I don't get the impression that if someone casts runes, an outsider is going to go "that's not divination" just because the person throwing the runes doesn't believe it is supernatural or isn't using it to predict the future. It's a very recognizable form of divination. That holds true with other forms of divination. What makes us call it 'divination' is more the action/method that is used than the beliefs about it or the intent behind it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Don't worry about it. I'll respond to either. Had I been given a choice of sex before I was born, I definitely would have chosen male. Being a human female is, at best, a physiological inconvenience. Jokingly, we could say I'm a gay man trapped in a woman's body. Or perhaps a sentient, mobile form of plant life trapped in a mammalian body.



Oh, definitely. That said, in my experience the understanding of divination described in the OP is quite common among the communities that practice in the modern day. Even outside of that, I don't get the impression that if someone casts runes, an outsider is going to go "that's not divination" just because the person throwing the runes doesn't believe it is supernatural or isn't using it to predict the future. It's a very recognizable form of divination. That holds true with other forms of divination. What makes us call it 'divination' is more the action/method that is used than the beliefs about it or the intent behind it.

Hmm. Which makes me think. Would if be a real annoyance (going by OP) of how people define divination? I mean, I had a very beautiful tarot reading the other day and he (santero) did a couple of things like giving me information about issues I never mentioned. In some cases he told me to watch for certain signs concerning an issue that "may" pop up. He was right.

He believes the source of knowledge comes from the Orishas. I believe the source is result itself. Yin/yang. We dont use tools to divine. The tools are the divination when used as such (animist). Anyway, if its defined by method, would its stereotypes be a real issue since its refering to beliefs about rather than the actual method?

 

[Quintessence]

The way to resolve these conflicting uses, in my opinion, is not to demand that all usage conform to the dictionary, but to allow each other to explain how we as individuals and members of specialized groups who use the words differently than the dictionary definitions. It really takes very little to understand how another person can understand a word differently, and accept that difference, without having to adopt it as our own understanding of the word.

In at least some of these discussions, the issue is the other person isn't interested in listening to or understanding another's perspectives. They can't play the rule of a cultural ethnographer, simply recording and observing what others are saying to them without judgement and overwriting the story being told to them with their own twist on it. As I'm sure you're aware, the observer inserting bias was not an insignificant problem as anthropology arose as a discipline. It seems our default attitude is often to be ethnocentric when approaching other cultures, and bend what they say so it fits into our worldview instead of attempting to truly understand theirs. Learning to do otherwise is precisely that - a learned skill.

 

[Quintessence]

Hmm. Which makes me think. Would if be a real annoyance (going by OP) of how people define divination? I mean, I had a very beautiful tarot reading the other day and he (santero) did a couple of things like giving me information about issues I never mentioned. In some cases he told me to watch for certain signs concerning an issue that "may" pop up. He was right.

He believes the source of knowledge comes from the Orishas. I believe the source is result itself. Yin/yang. We dont use tools to divine. The tools are the divination when used as such (animist). Anyway, if its defined by method, would its stereotypes be a real issue since its refering to beliefs about rather than the actual method?

We can ask that question, yes. I think one of the main reasons I feel the stereotypes are still an issue is because they can, in some instances, lead to some hurtful behaviors by those who hold to them. Prejudices and bigotries tend to have their roots in stereotypes; there exists prejudice against divination by some groups. In at least some cases, that prejudice is unwarranted, in part because divination as seen by those who practice it is not what they as an outsider believe it to be.