Divination - Not What You Think

[outhouse]

Not to presume to speak for @Quintessence , but part of the reason for this OP and following discussion has to do with the fact that the dictionary definitions and common popular depictions of divination being "fortune telling," "telling the future," "dealing with the supernatural" and whatnot are based in the dominant Abrahamic ideas about what divination is, not in what non-Abrahamic practitioners actually understand about their practice of divination.

Actually if you read the wiki page, it goes into detail, showing much is not Abrahamic based.

It just is what it is. And it gives clear examples of different practices worldwide

 

[outhouse]

It certainly appears to me that @Quintessence , @Riverwolf , etc., have done the necessary research to make intelligent comment on whether or not the common dictionary definitions and popular portrayals of divination are accurate vis-a-vis their own non-Abrahamic practices and beliefs.

So you missed my part where I stated I used divining rods professionally ?

Your statement is also non sequitur to the context of the thread regarding Supernatural and future telling.

 

[illykitty]

Often NOTHING outside their own practice.

Do you like it when people define atheism for you and assume things instead of asking you? Put yourself in other's shoes once in a while and you might start understanding them better...

You're coming off as being dismissive of the Pagan perspective, from the people who actually practice these things. Surely they're best at saying what those terms mean! Nobody likes to be told what they believe and practice. Besides, the definition of words evolve over time. Many words have different meanings now than they used to. That's part of the evolution of language.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So you missed my part where I stated I used divining rods professionally ?

So, citing a wiki article and using diving rods professionally means you have researched all aspects of divination and are qualified to tell someone else the correct way to understand the term as it applies to their own beliefs and practices, which is what this OP was about?

Of course the wiki points out that much of divination is not based in the Abrahamic religions--the point of the OP was the the dictionary definition and popular depictions of divination ARE based in the Abrahamic worldview [edit] and NOT in the worldview of the traditions that developed or are using these divination practices today.

 

[Mindmaster]

Exactly my point.

So why not simply make a new word or phrase to describe this activity which would

(a): Get rid of stigma added to your activity by the history of the word divination.

(b): Help make communicating the idea more effective.

and

(c): Help expand the English language?

In this case, the modern connotation of the word has nothing to do with the historical connotation and while revisionism is all the rage it is what it is. That term doesn't mean what the dictionary would say so it's wrong -- it's written by someone with no understanding of it, and like all second-handed knowledge it is garbage. They did what so many other reference books do and gloss over a subject with not so much as one real inquiry.

Similar issues can be found with the definitions of necromancy, magic, occult, and more. Really, the dictionary is just not credible past a very topical and mundane understanding of a matter. In my years of working with these types of experiences I can tell you that any book that wasn't about 100 years old is just complete junk in regard to these subjects, and do not reflect any knowledge of people who practice them. They're mostly full of assumptions and 3rd party commentary.

 

[outhouse]

Do you like it when people define atheism

I Could care less. I don't even like the term or name. Of course there is a difference between stereotypes and definition.


I think OP should have claimed certain stereotypes exist, which I still would have discussed to get to the meaning of it all.

 

[Mindmaster]

It certainly appears to me that @Quintessence , @Riverwolf , etc., have done the necessary research to make intelligent comment on whether or not the common dictionary definitions and popular portrayals of divination are accurate vis-a-vis their own non-Abrahamic practices and beliefs.

Some of us have been involved with these systems for thirty+ years. @Quintessence has certainly been involved directly for awhile. Again, I just think it comes down to the right questions are never asked. You aren't going to get much information on this subject as an outsider because the majority of the practice happens on someones living room table.

 

[outhouse]

So, citing a wiki article and using diving rods professionally means you have researched all aspects of divination and are qualified to tell someone else the correct way to understand the term as it applies to their own beliefs and practices, which is what this OP was about?

Non sequitur

Practicing or not does not make anyone an authority on the topic. And since he is the one going against the standard definition, it is upon himself to substantiate those claims, and I don't think he did.

he showed how his personal definition and practice is not like the typical definition, but did not use those words to describe it. His claim was "misconceptions" and while his personal view and practice may reflect that. His is only a narrow portion of said practice.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

In this case, the modern connotation of the word has nothing to do with the historical connotation and while revisionism is all the rage it is what it is. That term doesn't mean what the dictionary would say so it's wrong -- it's written by someone with no understanding of it, and like all second-handed knowledge it is garbage. They did what so many other reference books do and gloss over a subject with not so much as one real inquiry.

Similar issues can be found with the definitions of necromancy, magic, occult, and more. Really, the dictionary is just not credible past a very topical and mundane understanding of a matter. In my years of working with these types of experiences I can tell you that any book that wasn't about 100 years old is just complete junk in regard to these subjects, and do not reflect any knowledge of people who practice them. They're mostly full of assumptions and 2nd party commentary.

And that goes for most encyclopedias, including wikipedia, too, imo.

 

[Mindmaster]

And that goes for most encyclopedias, including wikipedia, too, imo.

Oh yea, I forgot to add...

I never even knew about divining rods until my mid-twenties. And, I learned about them in an emergency... We had a sewer pipe that was over six foot deep in the ground break mid-winter in the coldest part of January. The pipe is nearly 250' from where my house was to the sewer main, and we could have basically had to dig up my driveway + lots of frozen ground as we had no way to actually tell where the leak or the pipe were. Either we fixed it or we couldn't use the water or toilets... That simple...

Anyway, my wife's uncle comes out with two metal coat hangers cuts them into two L-shaped bits and then starts walking around the yard looking for the leak. He steps around a bit seeming to try to get a bearing... then he walks out with them spread out from each other and walks toward the spot. Right when he gets to the middle of the front yard the wires cross. He tests it from another angle and then marks the spot with a shovel. We dig a test hole and it is right over the problem -- the clay pipe completely collapsed. We only had to dig enough to swap the pipe... Didn't have to screw up the driveway... Lesson learned: Two coat hangers can save you $2000 if you can get over your doubts.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Non sequitur

Practicing or not does not make anyone an authority on the topic. And since he is the one going against the standard definition, it is upon himself to substantiate those claims, and I don't think he did.

he showed how his personal definition and practice is not like the typical definition, but did not use those words to describe it. His claim was "misconceptions" and while his personal view and practice may reflect that. His is only a narrow portion of said practice.

Don't see how that's non sequitur, but whatever. So what is your source of authority on this subject?

Yes, the "misconceptions" are that proposed and repeated in dictionaries and encyclopedias by people whose world view is dominated/limited to the Abrahamic omni-everything god and all the theology around it, and then the atheistic beliefs and understandings about that theology as well, with almost no concern or understanding for what any actual non-Abrahamic practitioner believes or does. I'm doubting that you read any of the posts beyond the op, because it's been clearly stated that the op is @Quintessence 's research and understanding of the topic--in which she finds that the dictionary definitions and encyclopedias and popular media perpetuate misconceptions about the actuality of practice among people who are non-Abrahamic in their worldviews.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not in OP's context.


OP states it is a misconception regarding two major definitions. Supernatural and future telling.

And its not, that is part of the foundation to the definition.

The foundation to that definition is, itself, the misconception. That misconception is largely thanks to Christian depictions of them.

How he personally practices this may not be part of the definition. But lest call it what it is, his own personal view.

Actually, it's the usage of an entire community, in case you missed that part.

 

[outhouse]

That term doesn't mean what the dictionary would say so it's wrong -- it's written by someone with no understanding of it, and like all second-handed knowledge it is garbage.

What is there to understand about personal perception of a Divination

 

[outhouse]

Actually, it's the usage of an entire community, in case you missed that part.

That is still a very small part of the total definition here.

This word and practices "plural" cover the globe and should not be narrowed down to OPs narrow definition based on his PERSONAL misconceptions.

 

[Riverwolf]

It certainly appears to me that @Quintessence , @Riverwolf , etc., have done the necessary research to make intelligent comment on whether or not the common dictionary definitions and popular portrayals of divination are accurate vis-a-vis their own non-Abrahamic practices and beliefs.

Yes. I do research. And by research, I mean going beyond Wikipedia. That website can serve as a good starting point (it's certainly better than it used to be), but that's all it is: a starting point.

I will say, however, @Quintessence is WAY more well-read and well-researched than I am in this topic.

Plus, linguistics is a personal hobby and major fascination of mine, particularly in regards to the English language. I do, in fact, know what I'm talking about in this regard. Not as much as a professional linguist, mind, and there's still plenty left to learn.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is still a very small part of the total definition here.

This word and practices "plural" cover the globe and should not be narrowed down to OPs narrow definition based on his PERSONAL misconceptions.

I'm fairly certain that all the people in this thread are aware that other people will sometimes disagree with them when it comes to the OP's understanding.

Why is it a problem that a thread wishes to discuss a subject matter on its own, clearly stated terms? You make it appear that they are disrespecting some central authority or something, but that is simply not at all the case.

 

[Riverwolf]

That is still a very small part of the total definition here.

This word and practices "plural" cover the globe and should not be narrowed down to OPs narrow definition based on his PERSONAL misconceptions.

No, it does NOT, in fact, cover the globe. Not even close. You're nitpicking the definition of the English word, so at best, it covers the English-speaking world, which is the third largest language spoken in terms of native speakers. That is not global, except from a very Anglocentric standpoint.

The OP's definition is the one that's most accurate within the English-speaking communities that actually practice Divination. Would you argue that a scientist is using just their "personal definition" when they say the word "theory" is not simply "guess"?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Divination.

This term conjures up many thoughts and ideas. On the whole, it is a practice dismissed by many in my culture, though for different reasons. Much of the dismissive attitude emerges from various misconceptions about what divination is. As divination isn't something we learn about in public education, what people know about the art is limited to popular culture, hearsay, and stereotypes rather than proper study. There are a couple of common misconceptions about divination that are worth addressing:

Misconception #1: Divination is about predicting the future.
In fairness, divination can be and has been used for this purpose. Skeptics are often critical of divination because they equate it with fortune telling. However, the uses for divination are hardly confined to this purpose. What divination does on a psychological level is facilitate thought and reflection. It's a tool that helps us think about things, like chatting with a friend or researching something in a library. It helps us get in touch with our feelings and our thoughts; it helps us become aware of the stories we're telling ourselves or how we are approaching a situation. And by understanding all that, it can help us to reframe how we think about things to better reach our goals. Put another way, divination is an introspective tool and can get the gears of critical thinking churning to power positive changes in someone's life.

Misconception #2: Divination involves the supernatural.
As with the first misconception, a bit of fairness is in order here. To some people who practice divination, they believe there is something supernatural about it, or some supernatural power involved. However, at the end of the day, there are multiple models to explain how divination works, and only some of them invoke supernatural explanations. It comes down to what the person chooses to believe about it. And regardless of what the person chooses to believe about it, from an academic perspective, we can always approach divination through the lens of the social sciences. From that perspective, divination works because it takes advantage of our mental processes. In particular, works through our ability to detect patterns and create meaning from them... things like symbolic thought.
​

Why am I posting all this? Well, for one, @LuisDantas called me out on it via PM a while back and I felt some obligation to make the thread. For two, I'm tired of detractors of divination mouthing off against it based on ill-informed ideas about what it is... and particularly when "skeptics" string together divination with things like alien abductions as if they are somehow equivalent. Lastly, I've practiced divination for years and hope it will be useful to someone to know a little more about it. Feel free to ask me any and all questions you might have about divination, as there are other misconceptions beyond just these two! Or, if you prefer, since I posted this in the debate section, demolish at will! Have you held to any of these misconceptions? Do you feel they are misconceptions? What have you been taught divination is? Do you practice?

Since this thread is still in motion, Ill say my little say. Im sure you can understand from the other perspective that, as with every other "spiritual term" it seems, it depends on the person.

Some divination I feel is mostly used for predicting the future. This doesnt mean (to me) someone wants to know everything that will happen. Its more when we know what "will" happen we prepare and see signs if it is warnings or benefits that may or may not lead to that result of the divination at hand. Future predicting can keep a balance without oversteping boundries as if what we see will one hundred percent happen. Its a tool used to find out ways to conduct ourselves today by looking ahead.

Its a misconception in that it is not fancy glamare. Its not when you look at it from a different angle.

Some divination involves the supernatual. It all depends on how you define it (again spiritual terms arent concrete). I dont believe anything is supernatual. Spirits exist just as the sun and moon. I dont believe gods exist and if they do exist they should be no different than you and I.

That said, divination for many does involve the supernatual (or natual things people cant pin point with quote on quote science). The diviner is taking or asking for information in a different way that is not talking, signing, or using body language to other people and living beings and plants. The communication is entirely (in my opinion) internal. Many interpret internal means of communication for information or predicting future (how I described above) as supernatual.

Its not a nasty word. Unless all magic users are just using psychology at play, why call it magic, craft, etc? Why not use basic terms if it is natual? That is my pet peeve. Using special words for natual things we do even if they cant be explained (supernatual).

That one is one misconception that will stick.

I define devination from all the above (switching supernatual to all-natual); and, it can be mediumship and some forms of spell craft. It could be some forms of prayer and other forms of ritual.

How do you define divination and how do you set that apart as another word or practice instead of seeing it as another form of spell craft that does pretty much the same thing: communication, prayer (however defined), and gathering information for application?

What makes divination different from spell craft?

 

[outhouse]

No, it does NOT, in fact, cover the globe

Following the wiki link, it states it is practiced all over the globe. Is it not ?

 

[outhouse]

Why is it a problem that a thread wishes to discuss a subject matter on its own, clearly stated terms?

Had OP stated this is my version of Divination and how it applies to the definition. I would have never posted.

But he mentioned your reply, as well as him viewing the typical definition to be sort of a stereotypical one. I just don't see how he can remove Supernatural and future telling from the definition because of his own personal feelings.